@Kkathyl said:
The tech industry has grabbed the wealth and total control. Lets hope critical thinking for ones self is not totally gone. We all enjoy the ease of which technology gives us. I like shopping in pj's. We do agree that one on one face time is much healthier and coin folk with shows get to find folks with common interests.
Markets go up and down. Not too worried. Yet.
Only hoarders need worry. I don't care if the market goes down, I don't plan on holding anything long enough for it to be a problem.
I also am not suggesting people stop buying coins. I'm just suggesting that people be realistic about what they are spending money on. It is NOT a store of wealth, it is a hobby. If you treat it as such, you will enjoy it and not be disappointed.
The realists among us will enjoy the hobby. It's the dreamers who will end up (unfortunately) disillusioned.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@rhedden said:
When I was at the NH Coin Expo on Saturday, I noticed a troop of Boy Scouts and at least one additional teenager walking the floor. They were looking at coins, not playing Pokemon Go while walking into walls and dealers' tables, staring with glassy eyes into their electronic devices. So let's chuck the streotypes of young people out the window. There will be new collectors in the future. Some of them will provide demand for U.S. coins remotely from foreign countries, too. The real question is, "what will they want to collect?"
That's the secondary question to "how many are there?"
No one is suggesting that there are zero young collectors. But there are fewer than there were 40 years ago when it seemed like every kid had a penny board.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@coinbuf said:
Interesting thought and easily considered, until the purchases are hundreds or thousands of dollars. At that point the investment aspect is very difficult to ignore. Thinking about this more, if one is a collector for 50 years and spends $200 a month (avg dinner for two @ $50 per week, more or less for some) that would = $120,000 over that timeframe. When looking at it that way its difficult to not consider that sum of money without the thought of some return. And while we as collectors may be able to rationalize the expenditure this way, I doubt many of our wives (as most are not coin collectors) would view this amount as disposable. That's a whole lot of fancy fingernails she could have had lol.
One can always compare coins to the most successful investments but why not compare it to another hobby? What if your hobby is golf and you spend an avg of $200 a month (clubs, balls, green fees, cart fees, lessons, etc)? At the end of 50 years how much will you have to show? Or gourmet dining or travel etc. My point is coins can hold up very well against any other hobby. Some people do make money but even if you don't, you will have more value than many other hobbies.
@coinbuf said:
Interesting thought and easily considered, until the purchases are hundreds or thousands of dollars. At that point the investment aspect is very difficult to ignore. Thinking about this more, if one is a collector for 50 years and spends $200 a month (avg dinner for two @ $50 per week, more or less for some) that would = $120,000 over that timeframe. When looking at it that way its difficult to not consider that sum of money without the thought of some return. And while we as collectors may be able to rationalize the expenditure this way, I doubt many of our wives (as most are not coin collectors) would view this amount as disposable. That's a whole lot of fancy fingernails she could have had lol.
One can always compare coins to the most successful investments but why not compare it to another hobby? What if your hobby is golf and you spend an avg of $200 a month (clubs, balls, green fees, cart fees, lessons, etc)? At the end of 50 years how much will you have to show? Or gourmet dining or travel etc. My point is coins can hold up very well against any other hobby. Some people do make money but even if you don't, you will have more value than many other hobbies.
I stock fresh fish and lobster from my kayaking hobby. That will not be here two years from now.
I stack gold from my other mining hobby, but that is just for fun and exercise as I lose money every trip. I do still end up with gold value longterm, however.
Coins are about the best hobby as one can use one's knowledge to build a collection of great value or perhaps a coin business venture.
Again, rose-colored glasses can be dangerous. It would have caused you to buy a whole lot of Zeppelins or Columbians for $4k, $3k and $2k that are now worth a fraction of that. Go ahead, load up on 65 Morgans...I dare you. The booming collector base should make you a fortune, if YOU'RE right. If I'm right, you're going to have a pretty collection of lower valued coins.
For the first time in many years I was at a show on this past Sunday selling numismatic coins. I was selling to a dealer I have known for many, many years who is both fair in what he pays and very market savvy.
The coins being sold were problem free US type coins, carefully selected over a period from 22 to 7 years ago. None were high value items but all were very saleable material. The dealer's comment, very true, was that coins still sold well if they were sold at prices the CURRENT market would bear. The current market is down. The dealer also commented that only two brands of slabs had any real acceptance in the current market. I will let the reader guess what two those were.
His offer was fair and I ended up selling all but one coin. In the end I fell short of breaking even on the numismatic coins ... disappointing given the time held involved but not unexpected.
I was also selling some recent US Mint proof sets and a few mint sets. The result there was as expected ... they did very very poorly ... and I could tell he really didn't care if he bought them or not. I tried to get his offer for those up just a bit but he wouldn't budge by even a dollar. I sold all of them ... good riddance.
Pretty sure the fact that that Chinese counterfeits outnumber authentic coins is a major reason the market is deteriorating. One day politicians may decide to stop lining their pockets and finally decide to stop this nonsense but I wouldn't hold my breath. lol
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
@topstuf said:
There is an enormous opportunity for some folks to become consultants for those inheriting stuff.
It's gonna be a boatload.
I have a guy like that at work. So, I looked at them for him and he's going to hang onto them reasoning "He can't believe how much they are worth" Gee, I should not have told him $100 for the Circ 1928 Peace dollar. There's nothing else in there, but a hodge podge of 90% 20th century "stuff" quite a bit though. Maybe this is good.
The coin market was chugging along quite well and then all of a sudden it hit a major snag. I think the biggest reason is the grading services softening up on grading.
There are always borderline coins that made it to the next holder. Nobody really pays attention to those. When coins with obvious damage or cleaning- or are scrubbed and just plain unattractive end up in holder, thats what makes the market drop
Again, rose-colored glasses can be dangerous. It would have caused you to buy a whole lot of Zeppelins or Columbians for $4k, $3k and $2k that are now worth a fraction of that. Go ahead, load up on 65 Morgans...I dare you. The booming collector base should make you a fortune, if YOU'RE right. If I'm right, you're going to have a pretty collection of lower valued coins.
True gem 65 Morgans at $100 piece are a bargain.
That's what they said about mint Zeppelins and $5 Columbians...both of which are rarer than 65 Morgans.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@coinbuf said:
Interesting thought and easily considered, until the purchases are hundreds or thousands of dollars. At that point the investment aspect is very difficult to ignore. Thinking about this more, if one is a collector for 50 years and spends $200 a month (avg dinner for two @ $50 per week, more or less for some) that would = $120,000 over that timeframe. When looking at it that way its difficult to not consider that sum of money without the thought of some return. And while we as collectors may be able to rationalize the expenditure this way, I doubt many of our wives (as most are not coin collectors) would view this amount as disposable. That's a whole lot of fancy fingernails she could have had lol.
One can always compare coins to the most successful investments but why not compare it to another hobby? What if your hobby is golf and you spend an avg of $200 a month (clubs, balls, green fees, cart fees, lessons, etc)? At the end of 50 years how much will you have to show? Or gourmet dining or travel etc. My point is coins can hold up very well against any other hobby. Some people do make money but even if you don't, you will have more value than many other hobbies.
+1
Totally agree. Treat the hobby as a hobby and you'll have a lot of fun. Treat the hobby as an investment and you're almost guaranteed to be disappointed.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@coinbuf said:
Interesting thought and easily considered, until the purchases are hundreds or thousands of dollars. At that point the investment aspect is very difficult to ignore. Thinking about this more, if one is a collector for 50 years and spends $200 a month (avg dinner for two @ $50 per week, more or less for some) that would = $120,000 over that timeframe. When looking at it that way its difficult to not consider that sum of money without the thought of some return. And while we as collectors may be able to rationalize the expenditure this way, I doubt many of our wives (as most are not coin collectors) would view this amount as disposable. That's a whole lot of fancy fingernails she could have had lol.
By that logic, you have to also consider your dinner for two as an investment...
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Again, rose-colored glasses can be dangerous. It would have caused you to buy a whole lot of Zeppelins or Columbians for $4k, $3k and $2k that are now worth a fraction of that. Go ahead, load up on 65 Morgans...I dare you. The booming collector base should make you a fortune, if YOU'RE right. If I'm right, you're going to have a pretty collection of lower valued coins.
True gem 65 Morgans at $100 piece are a bargain.
That's what they said about mint Zeppelins and $5 Columbians...both of which are rarer than 65 Morgans.
Price is the key. I believe MS65 Dollars hit $800 or so in the late 1980's. They were close to $200 less than a decade ago. $100 is a steal for properly graded gem coins.
I'm finding the softness in the market is bringing out coins that were unapproachable for me 10 years ago. As others have stated, I approach this as a hobby. Entertainment. It would be great if I could sell it at some future point... but I'm not counting on it.
Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
So sick of this BS about the sky falling and that kids are just robots who want to stay on the computer all day.
I go to shows fairly regularly and I do see kids, as well as 20 and 30 somethings.
The internet is the marketplace of the future as evidenced by Instagram, Heritage and even eBay.
I gave my girlfriend's son a proof set and a silver eagle for his birthday last week and he was super excited, gracious and thankful to receive it. I asked him if he was interested in that sort of thing and he said 'yes' he definitely was.
I plan on spending more time with him in the future to educate him and introduce him more to the Hobby.
He used to be way into computer games, when he was younger, but now he spends more time working, going to school and with his girlfriend. He has matured a lot, recently, and is now at the ripe old age of 19. SMH...
I am confident that the next Generation will have enthusiasts that have a lot of money. Go ahead and tell me I'm crazy but I am not worried about the future of numismatics.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
I don't equate price lowering to market softness. In many cases, the overgrading of scarce date coins in circulated condition has depressed their values. For more common coins and coins widely available as like items, such as proof sets, the internet has made them all available at once. Too much supply.
I am seeing very robust interest in coins. It all on the internet, not at shows.
Just going to offer my two cents as a younger (<25) numismatist, as to evolving collecting methods: I collect chopmarked Trade Dollars in a number of different ways (date, variety, specialty sets), as well as chopmarked world coins by type. I couldn't even dream of putting together a set of the latter in your local B&M, the coins just don't turn up. So much is internationally distributed, I purchase >90% of my coins via the internet. I love coin shows, the interaction, the "never knowing what might turn up" mindset, but I would be nowhere near where I am now in terms of raw accumulation operating by that method. Will your conventional dealers become a thing of the past? Maybe the smaller operations will be forced out, but the ones that I believe will survive are developing a strong digital presence, or, in the case of a few younger dealers I know, moving to exclusively digital operations and often specializing in a particular niche.
Now, as to why I continue to buy for my collection when price forecasts look poor: while I collect in this specialty because I love the coins and the people, I do sleep easier at night knowing that much of what I collect has genuine scarcity, and often has international appeal. World numismatics is still growing, the interesting issues have often been vastly undervalued relative to US coins of comparable rarity. I also take heart knowing that my little corner has not historically been very popular anyway, and is one of the few areas that I can say I have observed a reassuring age range among members
So if we had 1/10 of the collectors we had 10 years ago and every coin was worth 1/10 th of what it was then, would you still be collecting the same type of coins?
Would you be collecting something else?
If so, what type coins would you abandon like an old beer can collection?
@ricko said:
My wife and I go out to dinner two or three times a month (I enjoy cooking and she likes what I prepare)..... I am amazed at how couples will sit at the same table and spend all their time either messaging or reading their phones.... Yes, we both have smart phones... and my wife will definitely answer a text from our daughter, but we spend the time enjoying the meal and talking with each other. I see couples walking down the street (we are in a residential area of a small town) and they are either typing on or looking at their phones...Often individuals will walk by, talking while all alone, obviously on the phone with an earbud....It seems no one can do anything without their phone now... what happened to just taking a walk or hike and enjoying the scenery or the fresh air?? It concerns me, because I do not know where this will lead...and the possibilities concern me greatly. Cheers, RickO
I fully agree, Ricko. I live abroad, and find phones annoying at best, I probably am the only person in this country-Georgia-without one, with no desire to obtain one, I guess I am old!
This whole topic seems like wearing out the obvious - there are fewer kids and young adults interested, period. This is the "Buick" demographics that bode poorly for the market. That is just reality, and NOT a Chicken Little Sky is Falling opinion.
My son is 9 and neither he nor ANY of his friends or classmates have any interest in coins, although I have tried giving them coins, telling stories, trying to share or stimulate interest. My GF's son is 16 and has always been even less interested, if that is possible, and his friends absolutely roll over in laughter at the thought of coins being of ANY interest...The response? Nothing, and yawns....We used to have mini-clubs to share coins and loved those blue folders, using the salt shakers to force that last penny or nickel into place. There is none of that at all.
I have been going to major mid-Atlantic shows for more than 25 years and see not only lesser total attendees, but more importantly VERY VERY few YNs. This is not to say they don't exist, and the scout example is ridiculous - that is a badge they earn and so are a captive audience. When posters cite this or that example, they are isolated examples.
The whole nonsense about the state quarter program bringing in new collectors seems just that, I have not seen or heard of one person that started collecting because of them (not that they don't exist, just that they are likely few and far between), and the huge accumulations have gradually been returning to circulation.
Anyway, I love the coins but am a bit like Ricko in that I seem to get more and more with more closet space dedicated and never sell. Well, love the coins for what they are I say....
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
well if things are going downhill and there are very few collectors coming up through the ranks (I could not disagree more with all this) then we will all have the chance to be the next John Jay Pittman and be able to buy super rare coins at cheap prices. It will be like going back in a time machine with all the super low prices. I am not holding my breath. True rare coins graded correctly will continue to be in demand and do very well.
For more common coins and coins widely available as like items, such as proof sets, the internet has made them all available at once. Too much supply.
I agree with Rick's comment, and the internet also makes scarce and rare coins more easily available. Twenty years ago, a typical local show might have 3 or 4 draped bust halves. Now I can find everything through R-6 rarity that is currently for sale on the web. Demand is more selective now.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
@ErrorsOnCoins said:
You old timers keep talking about going to shows, but today, the coin market is on the internet.
The coin market online is a very busy place.
Even we "old timers" have pretty much abandoned shows. Unless they are BEEEEG shows.
I now get all my coins from Inet dealers. Browsing sites allows time to analyze how much I want the coin and you know you are buying a coin that has at least persuaded a dealer to stock it. I'll occasionally do an eBay if the picture passes my internal graphic translator.
H O W E V E R..... I am still convinced that the exodus from non beaners still has to run its course. When (not "if" in my opinion) the last of the "unapproved" ones get off the market, I believe the collectors will put that issue behind them and probably come back.
Or even ...start.
Beaners are a very part of the overall market. More of a small boutique associated with USA big ticket classic coins which but just one part of the overall numismatic market. In addition beaned coins cost more.
That a coin does not have a bean means didly dish water except to some bean fanatic. Beaners do have a higher bid value in the sheet but this is more dominant in grades like MS67 or big ticket issues. Yes I can c it if it makes y $35000 coin a $50000 coin. But that is a small portion of the collector pop let alone those who can afford one. I do buy beaners but have to mark them up higher. For coins under say 500 or 1000 the bean not really an issue except to growers / promoters.
Frankly I doubt the collecting public has the money to get the rest beaned anyhow.
There is no such thing as an exodus from non beaners lol. What ya gonna do spend money beaning common date MS65 Morgan’s while they go down some more?
I have bought beaned coins based on their relative bid in the sheet and own a few. Many been sold retail also. I try buy them when I can. However, The real numismatic market is much more than beaners or the people who promote them. I can c beaning where the higher CDN bid value may warrant it. However getting a large part of my Currency inventory graded by PCGS has priority.
@chesterb said:
The hobby has been around for thousands of years. I find it hard to believe that it’s about to die off anytime soon. The prices for original, eye appealing early type coins that I collect seem to still be strong.
Doesn’t the coin market have ups and downs so what we’re seeing is just some down years until something happens to spike interest again?
The hobby is NOT thousands of years old. Coin collecting really started in the Renaissance with ancient coins.
You can find it hard to believe, but membership in the ANA speaks for itself...as does the price drops of common widgets.
I would ask anyone to look at the stamp market. Premium stamp material continues to set records. Everything else is down a factor of 10 or even 20 from only 20 years ago. APS membership has dropped by over 60%. Coins have started what appears to be a similar shift.
I would avoid complacency...unless you really don't care about prices because you don't plan on selling. Then the more the market tanks, the better: you can buy more.
Another good post . Look at the vintage baseball card market . Some areas have gone down to 1/4 of past value . A very select few have maintained their value and even fewer have gone up .
With the economic slump of 2009 and later , a lot of collectors property values , home equity credit lines and credit card limits decreased or were completely withdrawn . Less collectors also entering sports card market .
Coin market is destined for something similar . Generic high grade type coins ( ex MS65 or higher Barber or Seated coins ) are due for a HUGE price drop IMO .
I get a kick out of someone considering the vintage baseball card market to be in the doldrums (hint, it is anything but.) Unless you consider mid to late '80s baseball cards to be "vintage"? Gems from the '70s and on back and many things prewar are as pricey and desirable as ever. It's akin to judging the entire coin market based on how '70s proof sets are moving.
I agree on your price point for needing one.
But.... I will state now and for the record that I believe it's two years MAX until nonbeans are headed to the unwanted bin.
Just my personal actions may affect ...something. Maybe not.
BUT..... I have DUMPED my non bean coins that had any substantial value. Gonzo!
And....where I used to spend appx 3-5k a month on stuff, I now spend 500-1500.
Significant? Who knows? But it's a bite out of what ....was.... my shopping.
I guess you could label me a "bean fanatic" now. I only buy beans.
They gotta be PURDY but....no bean? Betta be cheep!
@ricko said:
My wife and I go out to dinner two or three times a month (I enjoy cooking and she likes what I prepare)..... I am amazed at how couples will sit at the same table and spend all their time either messaging or reading their phones.... Yes, we both have smart phones... and my wife will definitely answer a text from our daughter, but we spend the time enjoying the meal and talking with each other. I see couples walking down the street (we are in a residential area of a small town) and they are either typing on or looking at their phones...Often individuals will walk by, talking while all alone, obviously on the phone with an earbud....It seems no one can do anything without their phone now... what happened to just taking a walk or hike and enjoying the scenery or the fresh air?? It concerns me, because I do not know where this will lead...and the possibilities concern me greatly. Cheers, RickO
When our family as a group go out to eat there is a rule....all phones off and we talk to each other. It works and is great!
@topstuf said:
There is an enormous opportunity for some folks to become consultants for those inheriting stuff.
It's gonna be a boatload.
I would be able to fill that role, and tell a lot of people inheriting "stuff" what it is, how and/or why it was (or is) significant; the problem is in telling them about some things once significant to fair number of people, nowadays a good bit less so.
@topstuf said:
Geez....does anyone remember my notice of sale of the 1848-CAL?
Man, .....LOTS.... of queries (and speculation) about
IS IT BEANED?
No it wasn't. And thank God for the floor session as it had stalled WAY below final hammer as I watched.
Glad it's gone.
It was a really nice coin, I remember you posting it. Now that it's gone and you can answer freely -- at one point, you really wanted it, for the history, etc. But obviously the lack of bean came to bother you, eventually. Question -- did you try to have it beaned? Was it known to have been to the bean factory, but didn't make the cut? Just curious. I wouldn't mind owning an 1848 CAL, but it's beyond my pay grade. Which is what it is.
I look forward personally to "collecting" NCLT gold fractionals in my future -- nothing more liquid and easy to trade (what they sell for is whatever the daily market is), unless one simply collects paper (or digital) plain old currency.
@Aspie_Rocco said:
I submit this theory for consumption, there ARE more collectors now than ever before.
The population explosion has a more watered down appearance of having less collectors because there are so many more people in general.
The platform of collecting has changed dramatically to online based sales and trades.
There are more coins available now to the average consumer just on eBay, than one could find at an entire coin show or B&M store anywhere. 24 hour shopping online.
I can guarantee that the eBay seller who replies to offers and messages during evening-night-weekend- off hours gets a lot more business than a 10-4 schedule seller. I buy from the guys that reply at 8pm, or Sunday afternoon. I have purchased thousands of coins over the last 10 years. 5 coin stores, 1 show, and all the rest eBay or internet.
I believe the soft prices come from market competition. It simply is not difficult to find most any coin anymore, with the exception of extreme rarities and super high prices.
What population explosion? In Africa and India? Western Europe, the U.S. and Japan have been in a population drought for decades.
And it's all good to have a "theory" but there is not one scintilla of evidence to support this theory. Everything from prices to club memberships points to a declining collector base. eBay is now 20 years old, the recent weakness in the coin market isn't a sudden shift to eBay.
You're right that some of the softness comes from competition, but that is NOT NOT NOT because of increased demand and an even greater increase in competition. It is due to decreased demand spread over more coins.
If the collector base was truly exploding as you suggest, you would see stable prices at the very least. You don't.
In the 90s when stamp prices started sliding, true believers said buy. When Zeppelins went from 5k to 2k people screamed bargain. Now, with Zeppelins at 1k or even less, it is hard to rationalize the decline as anything but what it was: a decreasing collector base.
You also have to remember that every lost collector is a double whammy on the market. It is one less buyer and one more collection needing dispersal.
Again, rose-colored glasses can be dangerous. It would have caused you to buy a whole lot of Zeppelins or Columbians for $4k, $3k and $2k that are now worth a fraction of that. Go ahead, load up on 65 Morgans...I dare you. The booming collector base should make you a fortune, if YOU'RE right. If I'm right, you're going to have a pretty collection of lower valued coins.
I don't really find myself disagreeing with you at all. I'd like to come back to the coin market to pick up a few things, I believe, in about 20 years' time. Will be interesting to see the state of widgets and grand rarities, and compare then-current events to what we're imagining they'll be right now.
@ReadyFireAim said:
So if we had 1/10 of the collectors we had 10 years ago and every coin was worth 1/10 th of what it was then, would you still be collecting the same type of coins?
Would you be collecting something else?
If so, what type coins would you abandon like an old beer can collection?
Many old beer cans are worse than the commonest of common dreck coins. And then some are quite rare and valuable. Got any cone-tops you are just throwing away?
I cannot argue with the Ms65 commentary, as I regret already having bought my first 65 Morgan just a month or two ago. But again I point out a population explosion in graded Morgans. The population explosion I referenced regarding people, the population has more than doubled since the “baby boomers” era. Technology has made penny boards obsolete just as it has the milkman. Kids today have a million things and interests at their disposal, the more information that shines a light into every facet of life makes the mystique of old Coins less exciting for many, I suggest.
This is a very tumultuous and financially insecure time, in my opinion. Since the drama of 2009ish housing and financial crisis, there is a lot less disposable income to put towards hobbies for the largest part of the American population. Sure the upper middle class and upper classes have the means to buy, but with so much economic uncertainty out there I am not surprised markets like coins seem in a slump.
I also kind of expect another sort of Renaissance for Coins and vintage materials in the future. How long...??? But one day Coins will be highly prized again, maybe after they become obsolete or a massive technological or financial failure / EMP causes a return to cash society
The population explosion I refer to is the 125 million polis people since the 1960s
@7Jaguars said:
I have been going to major mid-Atlantic shows for more than 25 years and see not only lesser total attendees, but more importantly VERY VERY few YNs. This is not to say they don't exist, and the scout example is ridiculous - that is a badge they earn and so are a captive audience. When posters cite this or that example, they are isolated examples.
You're right coin shows are dying. Rightfully so when it's the same dealers, in the same locations over the country selling the same coins for more than you can find online.
I go to one local show in Connecticut (Mansfield Numismatic Society show). I don't always find coins when I go, however, I have bought hundreds of coins on my phone and computer in 2018. I also went to the Philly ANA for the first time this year...to meet up with a group of 10 guys who are 35 or less years old, many who are active users here. I spent money on a hotel ($200), gas/parking/tolls ($100), the show entrance fee ($15) and dinner and drinks with my wife ($200) and I didn't buy a single coin the two days I was there. I had a wad of cash in my pocket and didn't see anything that I "needed to have".
Nothing, and yawns....We used to have mini-clubs to share coins and loved those blue folders, using the salt shakers to force that last penny or nickel into place. There is none of that at all.
Times are changing! What would you call this forum? Could it not be considered a 21st century (or 20th century depending on who you ask ) coin club? The best part is you can do it from home without traveling and its open and active 24/7/365. There are tons of other coin resources being run by YN's or for YN's: Reddit, NGC/PCGS forums, Facebook groups, YouTube, Instagram and discord channels where you have more information and resources available than ever before. Is that good? Depends on who you ask.
You can make the same argument as above with selling coins today verse 25 years ago. I rarely sell coins to a coin dealer or LCS due to buy prices. I have a successful eBay account with a lot of selling feedback, forums I have good reputation on and other venues I sell at as well. That allows me to sell directly to collectors and keep my margins meaty most of the time. That keeps my overhead low, alternative outlets to churn and make money and to learn what is hot and what is not. That makes it tougher for dealers who have to compete and rely on people who come into their store or who they wholesale to or consign to big auction venues that charge fees.
TIMES ARE CHANGING. Some will say its for the best, others will say it is destroying the hobby. Everyone has a different experience and perspective. I suggest that many of the members here either are embracing it or should embrace it because us younger collectors certainly are.
PS: I make a point to support my local shops because they are a wealth of knowledge, give me first shot at new coins at good prices and I try to support local. I like to pay in cash as often as possible too, so that's another plus for me. With the new SCOTUS ruling on collecting sales tax, who knows....maybe the extra few percentages on transactions will push some people back into brick and mortar stores.
@Nysoto said:
All this talk of an increase in supply and decrease in demand - sorry, just had to...
Your conclusion - equilibrium quantity does not change - is valid only when the supply and demand shifts are exactly equivalent. An unlikely event. (Point taken, nonetheless.)
Since coins are personally satisfying to collect, they'll last a long long time.
If you look at any of your other hobbies or expenditures, you'll probably find that you lose more on those things than on any coins.
@coinbuf said:
Interesting thought and easily considered, until the purchases are hundreds or thousands of dollars. At that point the investment aspect is very difficult to ignore. Thinking about this more, if one is a collector for 50 years and spends $200 a month (avg dinner for two @ $50 per week, more or less for some) that would = $120,000 over that timeframe. When looking at it that way its difficult to not consider that sum of money without the thought of some return. And while we as collectors may be able to rationalize the expenditure this way, I doubt many of our wives (as most are not coin collectors) would view this amount as disposable. That's a whole lot of fancy fingernails she could have had lol.
By that logic, you have to also consider your dinner for two as an investment...
Except that eating is a necessity, you know in order to not die. lol
I'm still waiting for the prices of coins I need to fill the holes in my folder to come down!! Seems like all others have, but not those.................
@coinbuf said:
Interesting thought and easily considered, until the purchases are hundreds or thousands of dollars. At that point the investment aspect is very difficult to ignore. Thinking about this more, if one is a collector for 50 years and spends $200 a month (avg dinner for two @ $50 per week, more or less for some) that would = $120,000 over that timeframe. When looking at it that way its difficult to not consider that sum of money without the thought of some return. And while we as collectors may be able to rationalize the expenditure this way, I doubt many of our wives (as most are not coin collectors) would view this amount as disposable. That's a whole lot of fancy fingernails she could have had lol.
By that logic, you have to also consider your dinner for two as an investment...
Except that eating is a necessity, you know in order to not die. lol
Eating out is NOT a necessity.
And you argued that it was the size of the expense, not the necessity, that made it an "investment"
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Comments
Only hoarders need worry. I don't care if the market goes down, I don't plan on holding anything long enough for it to be a problem.
I also am not suggesting people stop buying coins. I'm just suggesting that people be realistic about what they are spending money on. It is NOT a store of wealth, it is a hobby. If you treat it as such, you will enjoy it and not be disappointed.
The realists among us will enjoy the hobby. It's the dreamers who will end up (unfortunately) disillusioned.
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That's the secondary question to "how many are there?"
No one is suggesting that there are zero young collectors. But there are fewer than there were 40 years ago when it seemed like every kid had a penny board.
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Ding Ding and Ding.
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
One can always compare coins to the most successful investments but why not compare it to another hobby? What if your hobby is golf and you spend an avg of $200 a month (clubs, balls, green fees, cart fees, lessons, etc)? At the end of 50 years how much will you have to show? Or gourmet dining or travel etc. My point is coins can hold up very well against any other hobby. Some people do make money but even if you don't, you will have more value than many other hobbies.
I stock fresh fish and lobster from my kayaking hobby. That will not be here two years from now.
I stack gold from my other mining hobby, but that is just for fun and exercise as I lose money every trip. I do still end up with gold value longterm, however.
Coins are about the best hobby as one can use one's knowledge to build a collection of great value or perhaps a coin business venture.
True gem 65 Morgans at $100 piece are a bargain.
For the first time in many years I was at a show on this past Sunday selling numismatic coins. I was selling to a dealer I have known for many, many years who is both fair in what he pays and very market savvy.
The coins being sold were problem free US type coins, carefully selected over a period from 22 to 7 years ago. None were high value items but all were very saleable material. The dealer's comment, very true, was that coins still sold well if they were sold at prices the CURRENT market would bear. The current market is down. The dealer also commented that only two brands of slabs had any real acceptance in the current market. I will let the reader guess what two those were.
His offer was fair and I ended up selling all but one coin. In the end I fell short of breaking even on the numismatic coins ... disappointing given the time held involved but not unexpected.
I was also selling some recent US Mint proof sets and a few mint sets. The result there was as expected ... they did very very poorly ... and I could tell he really didn't care if he bought them or not. I tried to get his offer for those up just a bit but he wouldn't budge by even a dollar. I sold all of them ... good riddance.
Pretty sure the fact that that Chinese counterfeits outnumber authentic coins is a major reason the market is deteriorating. One day politicians may decide to stop lining their pockets and finally decide to stop this nonsense but I wouldn't hold my breath. lol
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
My coins are quite unique "as they are the only ones I have"
I have a guy like that at work. So, I looked at them for him and he's going to hang onto them reasoning "He can't believe how much they are worth" Gee, I should not have told him $100 for the Circ 1928 Peace dollar. There's nothing else in there, but a hodge podge of 90% 20th century "stuff" quite a bit though. Maybe this is good.
The coin market was chugging along quite well and then all of a sudden it hit a major snag. I think the biggest reason is the grading services softening up on grading.
There are always borderline coins that made it to the next holder. Nobody really pays attention to those. When coins with obvious damage or cleaning- or are scrubbed and just plain unattractive end up in holder, thats what makes the market drop
That's what they said about mint Zeppelins and $5 Columbians...both of which are rarer than 65 Morgans.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
+1
Totally agree. Treat the hobby as a hobby and you'll have a lot of fun. Treat the hobby as an investment and you're almost guaranteed to be disappointed.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
By that logic, you have to also consider your dinner for two as an investment...
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Price is the key. I believe MS65 Dollars hit $800 or so in the late 1980's. They were close to $200 less than a decade ago. $100 is a steal for properly graded gem coins.
We can dig this thread up in 5 years and see!
I'm finding the softness in the market is bringing out coins that were unapproachable for me 10 years ago. As others have stated, I approach this as a hobby. Entertainment. It would be great if I could sell it at some future point... but I'm not counting on it.
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
Classic rarities and beauty will always do well.
So sick of this BS about the sky falling and that kids are just robots who want to stay on the computer all day.
I go to shows fairly regularly and I do see kids, as well as 20 and 30 somethings.
The internet is the marketplace of the future as evidenced by Instagram, Heritage and even eBay.
I gave my girlfriend's son a proof set and a silver eagle for his birthday last week and he was super excited, gracious and thankful to receive it. I asked him if he was interested in that sort of thing and he said 'yes' he definitely was.
I plan on spending more time with him in the future to educate him and introduce him more to the Hobby.
He used to be way into computer games, when he was younger, but now he spends more time working, going to school and with his girlfriend. He has matured a lot, recently, and is now at the ripe old age of 19. SMH...
I am confident that the next Generation will have enthusiasts that have a lot of money. Go ahead and tell me I'm crazy but I am not worried about the future of numismatics.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Every time I get to look at my collection(s) it brings a smile to my face.
In my world that means I win.
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
Classic Commems selling good have sold a few this week around CPG - super deal!
I don't equate price lowering to market softness. In many cases, the overgrading of scarce date coins in circulated condition has depressed their values. For more common coins and coins widely available as like items, such as proof sets, the internet has made them all available at once. Too much supply.
I am seeing very robust interest in coins. It all on the internet, not at shows.
Just going to offer my two cents as a younger (<25) numismatist, as to evolving collecting methods: I collect chopmarked Trade Dollars in a number of different ways (date, variety, specialty sets), as well as chopmarked world coins by type. I couldn't even dream of putting together a set of the latter in your local B&M, the coins just don't turn up. So much is internationally distributed, I purchase >90% of my coins via the internet. I love coin shows, the interaction, the "never knowing what might turn up" mindset, but I would be nowhere near where I am now in terms of raw accumulation operating by that method. Will your conventional dealers become a thing of the past? Maybe the smaller operations will be forced out, but the ones that I believe will survive are developing a strong digital presence, or, in the case of a few younger dealers I know, moving to exclusively digital operations and often specializing in a particular niche.
Now, as to why I continue to buy for my collection when price forecasts look poor: while I collect in this specialty because I love the coins and the people, I do sleep easier at night knowing that much of what I collect has genuine scarcity, and often has international appeal. World numismatics is still growing, the interesting issues have often been vastly undervalued relative to US coins of comparable rarity. I also take heart knowing that my little corner has not historically been very popular anyway, and is one of the few areas that I can say I have observed a reassuring age range among members
So if we had 1/10 of the collectors we had 10 years ago and every coin was worth 1/10 th of what it was then, would you still be collecting the same type of coins?
Would you be collecting something else?
If so, what type coins would you abandon like an old beer can collection?
My Saint Set
I fully agree, Ricko. I live abroad, and find phones annoying at best, I probably am the only person in this country-Georgia-without one, with no desire to obtain one, I guess I am old!
This whole topic seems like wearing out the obvious - there are fewer kids and young adults interested, period. This is the "Buick" demographics that bode poorly for the market. That is just reality, and NOT a Chicken Little Sky is Falling opinion.
My son is 9 and neither he nor ANY of his friends or classmates have any interest in coins, although I have tried giving them coins, telling stories, trying to share or stimulate interest. My GF's son is 16 and has always been even less interested, if that is possible, and his friends absolutely roll over in laughter at the thought of coins being of ANY interest...The response? Nothing, and yawns....We used to have mini-clubs to share coins and loved those blue folders, using the salt shakers to force that last penny or nickel into place. There is none of that at all.
I have been going to major mid-Atlantic shows for more than 25 years and see not only lesser total attendees, but more importantly VERY VERY few YNs. This is not to say they don't exist, and the scout example is ridiculous - that is a badge they earn and so are a captive audience. When posters cite this or that example, they are isolated examples.
The whole nonsense about the state quarter program bringing in new collectors seems just that, I have not seen or heard of one person that started collecting because of them (not that they don't exist, just that they are likely few and far between), and the huge accumulations have gradually been returning to circulation.
Anyway, I love the coins but am a bit like Ricko in that I seem to get more and more with more closet space dedicated and never sell. Well, love the coins for what they are I say....
Well, just Love coins, period.
You old timers keep talking about going to shows, but today, the coin market is on the internet.
The coin market online is a very busy place.
well if things are going downhill and there are very few collectors coming up through the ranks (I could not disagree more with all this) then we will all have the chance to be the next John Jay Pittman and be able to buy super rare coins at cheap prices. It will be like going back in a time machine with all the super low prices. I am not holding my breath. True rare coins graded correctly will continue to be in demand and do very well.
I agree with Rick's comment, and the internet also makes scarce and rare coins more easily available. Twenty years ago, a typical local show might have 3 or 4 draped bust halves. Now I can find everything through R-6 rarity that is currently for sale on the web. Demand is more selective now.
Even we "old timers"
have pretty much abandoned shows. Unless they are BEEEEG shows.
I now get all my coins from Inet dealers. Browsing sites allows time to analyze how much I want the coin and you know you are buying a coin that has at least persuaded a dealer to stock it. I'll occasionally do an eBay if the picture passes my internal graphic translator.
H O W E V E R..... I am still convinced that the exodus from non beaners still has to run its course. When (not "if" in my opinion) the last of the "unapproved" ones get off the market, I believe the collectors will put that issue behind them and probably come back.
Or even ...start.
With more assurance.
Beaners are a very part of the overall market. More of a small boutique associated with USA big ticket classic coins which but just one part of the overall numismatic market. In addition beaned coins cost more.
That a coin does not have a bean means didly dish water except to some bean fanatic. Beaners do have a higher bid value in the sheet but this is more dominant in grades like MS67 or big ticket issues. Yes I can c it if it makes y $35000 coin a $50000 coin. But that is a small portion of the collector pop let alone those who can afford one. I do buy beaners but have to mark them up higher. For coins under say 500 or 1000 the bean not really an issue except to growers / promoters.
Frankly I doubt the collecting public has the money to get the rest beaned anyhow.
There is no such thing as an exodus from non beaners lol. What ya gonna do spend money beaning common date MS65 Morgan’s while they go down some more?
I have bought beaned coins based on their relative bid in the sheet and own a few. Many been sold retail also. I try buy them when I can. However, The real numismatic market is much more than beaners or the people who promote them. I can c beaning where the higher CDN bid value may warrant it. However getting a large part of my Currency inventory graded by PCGS has priority.
I get a kick out of someone considering the vintage baseball card market to be in the doldrums (hint, it is anything but.) Unless you consider mid to late '80s baseball cards to be "vintage"? Gems from the '70s and on back and many things prewar are as pricey and desirable as ever. It's akin to judging the entire coin market based on how '70s proof sets are moving.
I agree on your price point for needing one.
But.... I will state now and for the record that I believe it's two years MAX until nonbeans are headed to the unwanted bin.
Just my personal actions may affect ...something. Maybe not.
BUT..... I have DUMPED my non bean coins that had any substantial value. Gonzo!
And....where I used to spend appx 3-5k a month on stuff, I now spend 500-1500.
Significant? Who knows? But it's a bite out of what ....was.... my shopping.
I guess you could label me a "bean fanatic" now. I only buy beans.
They gotta be PURDY but....no bean? Betta be cheep!
When our family as a group go out to eat there is a rule....all phones off and we talk to each other. It works and is great!
Geez....does anyone remember my notice of sale of the 1848-CAL?
Man, .....LOTS.... of queries (and speculation) about
IS IT BEANED?
No it wasn't. And thank God for the floor session as it had stalled WAY below final hammer as I watched.
Glad it's gone.
I would be able to fill that role, and tell a lot of people inheriting "stuff" what it is, how and/or why it was (or is) significant; the problem is in telling them about some things once significant to fair number of people, nowadays a good bit less so.
Maybe it will be John's next enterprise.
It was a really nice coin, I remember you posting it. Now that it's gone and you can answer freely -- at one point, you really wanted it, for the history, etc. But obviously the lack of bean came to bother you, eventually. Question -- did you try to have it beaned? Was it known to have been to the bean factory, but didn't make the cut? Just curious. I wouldn't mind owning an 1848 CAL, but it's beyond my pay grade. Which is what it is.
I look forward personally to "collecting" NCLT gold fractionals in my future -- nothing more liquid and easy to trade (what they sell for is whatever the daily market is), unless one simply collects paper (or digital) plain old currency.
I don't really find myself disagreeing with you at all. I'd like to come back to the coin market to pick up a few things, I believe, in about 20 years' time. Will be interesting to see the state of widgets and grand rarities, and compare then-current events to what we're imagining they'll be right now.
I think rare coins will always have a market, they will always sell. its just that in a softening market they will simple sell for less..
Many old beer cans are worse than the commonest of common dreck coins. And then some are quite rare and valuable. Got any cone-tops you are just throwing away?
All this talk of an increase in supply and decrease in demand - sorry, just had to...
I cannot argue with the Ms65 commentary, as I regret already having bought my first 65 Morgan just a month or two ago. But again I point out a population explosion in graded Morgans. The population explosion I referenced regarding people, the population has more than doubled since the “baby boomers” era. Technology has made penny boards obsolete just as it has the milkman. Kids today have a million things and interests at their disposal, the more information that shines a light into every facet of life makes the mystique of old Coins less exciting for many, I suggest.
This is a very tumultuous and financially insecure time, in my opinion. Since the drama of 2009ish housing and financial crisis, there is a lot less disposable income to put towards hobbies for the largest part of the American population. Sure the upper middle class and upper classes have the means to buy, but with so much economic uncertainty out there I am not surprised markets like coins seem in a slump.
I also kind of expect another sort of Renaissance for Coins and vintage materials in the future. How long...??? But one day Coins will be highly prized again, maybe after they become obsolete or a massive technological or financial failure / EMP causes a return to cash society
The population explosion I refer to is the 125 million polis people since the 1960s
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
You're right coin shows are dying. Rightfully so when it's the same dealers, in the same locations over the country selling the same coins for more than you can find online.
I go to one local show in Connecticut (Mansfield Numismatic Society show). I don't always find coins when I go, however, I have bought hundreds of coins on my phone and computer in 2018. I also went to the Philly ANA for the first time this year...to meet up with a group of 10 guys who are 35 or less years old, many who are active users here. I spent money on a hotel ($200), gas/parking/tolls ($100), the show entrance fee ($15) and dinner and drinks with my wife ($200) and I didn't buy a single coin the two days I was there. I had a wad of cash in my pocket and didn't see anything that I "needed to have".
Times are changing! What would you call this forum? Could it not be considered a 21st century (or 20th century depending on who you ask
) coin club? The best part is you can do it from home without traveling and its open and active 24/7/365. There are tons of other coin resources being run by YN's or for YN's: Reddit, NGC/PCGS forums, Facebook groups, YouTube, Instagram and discord channels where you have more information and resources available than ever before. Is that good? Depends on who you ask.
You can make the same argument as above with selling coins today verse 25 years ago. I rarely sell coins to a coin dealer or LCS due to buy prices. I have a successful eBay account with a lot of selling feedback, forums I have good reputation on and other venues I sell at as well. That allows me to sell directly to collectors and keep my margins meaty most of the time. That keeps my overhead low, alternative outlets to churn and make money and to learn what is hot and what is not. That makes it tougher for dealers who have to compete and rely on people who come into their store or who they wholesale to or consign to big auction venues that charge fees.
TIMES ARE CHANGING. Some will say its for the best, others will say it is destroying the hobby. Everyone has a different experience and perspective. I suggest that many of the members here either are embracing it or should embrace it because us younger collectors certainly are.
PS: I make a point to support my local shops because they are a wealth of knowledge, give me first shot at new coins at good prices and I try to support local. I like to pay in cash as often as possible too, so that's another plus for me. With the new SCOTUS ruling on collecting sales tax, who knows....maybe the extra few percentages on transactions will push some people back into brick and mortar stores.
Your conclusion - equilibrium quantity does not change - is valid only when the supply and demand shifts are exactly equivalent. An unlikely event. (Point taken, nonetheless.)
Smitten with DBLCs.
Since coins are personally satisfying to collect, they'll last a long long time.
If you look at any of your other hobbies or expenditures, you'll probably find that you lose more on those things than on any coins.
I rationalized price declines today
Plus the extra 8%
Except that eating is a necessity, you know in order to not die. lol
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I'm still waiting for the prices of coins I need to fill the holes in my folder to come down!!
Seems like all others have, but not those................. 
Eating out is NOT a necessity.
And you argued that it was the size of the expense, not the necessity, that made it an "investment"
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.