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Another PR67 arrives, weirdest tone and surface damage
Aspie_Rocco
Posts: 3,259 ✭✭✭✭✭
Requesting opinions
I just acquired the strangest PR67 1938 that I have ever encountered. A cameo like tone that is practically invisible with a loupe or up close. Also there are two blemishes around the date.
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
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Data throttling is jamming me up online. I had to repost from a draft.
It seems almost like planchet flaws to me, since it does not have a raised perimeter around the indentations.
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
Looks like the die was coming apart or had been reworked badly
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
Cleaning/dipping done gone bad?
I suspect someone had oil on their thumb when they pressed the coin into some sort of holder. From the seller's pics it did not look like fs-402 or fs-403, is it?
@davewesen
I cannot decide if I really like it or not. I am usually in love with these 1938 pr67 but this one has me wondering.
403
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
It is the 403 re engraved obverse design. The letters and numbers along with the ribbon were all enhanced. All reverses on 38 proofs seems to have the same detail.
This detail is found on 1939 proofs too. 39 has multiple ribbon designs too, but I have said this for years now. Hunter heads up.
There is a 39
402 style
403 style
And some other minor enhancements
The 39 r 40 has two! One is a large question mark?! Has anyone else Seen that yet?
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
>
Just an observation. This photo and that blob and the little streaking, below the 5, looks like a angled drop of solder.
Do not know; just an observation.
It does sort of look like that. They are deep like gouges but must have happened before striking, as my best guess. There is no metal pushed out of the recessed areas that I can see > @Hemispherical said:
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
Very weird. What does @Insider2 think?
I don't get that grade at ALL!
@Aspie_Rocco
I won't comment on the blemishes and the technical grade, but if you can still return this coin to the seller - DO IT! If you cannot return to the seller - send it to PCGS - here is why:
I firmly believe this is a coin that has been doctored prior to submission. I don't intend to rehash all the details from over a decade ago, but suffice it to say that a dealer or two was applying a substance to the devices in hopes of obtaining a cameo designation from PCGS. The material simulated a cameo surface which is much more valuable to collectors like me. They were deceptive for years until the surfaces started changing in the holders and also bleeding into the fields. Russ (RIP) and I had an ongoing PM dialog on the shenanigans. Imagine the price tag on a PCGS cameo 1938 Jefferson! They even targeted proof Walkers and tried to get frost on the sun!
Before I go further. PCGS was diligent in understanding who was submitting these coins and nipped it in the bud. Lets face it, it is not too hard to figure out who the doctors are when you can trace the cert numbers back to the submitters (DUH). I also know who the culprits were and I got one to fess up on what they used.
PCGS also made me 100% whole on the pieces I purchased after the culprits washed their hands of their moral/ethical responsibility. This is a major reason why all my decent cameos are in PCGS holders - they stand behind their products. The culprits have not been on these boards to my knowledge so they are likely to be unknown to most. (In fact, I believe both are out of the business or mostly out of the business - they are lucky they didn't serve jail time).
Here is a short list of my coins that were doctored:
1950 25c 66 cameo Cert 21147950 purchased 2/02, returned to PCGS Feb. 2006
1955 25c 67 dcam Cert 21137572 purchased 2/02, returned to PCGS Feb. 2005
1954 5c 67 dcam Cert 40002526 purchased 2/02, returned to PCGS Sept. 2004 (broke my heart as I was born in '54)
1938 1c 65 cam Cert 21167739 purchased 8/02 from Superior ANA auction, returned to PCGS May 2004
You can see that the above coins were all in a date and cert range. They not only fooled PCGS when graded, they also fooled a major auction house, and they also fooled me. They looked great at first, but turned hazy years later (no offense, but just like your coin).
I believe your coin is one that was artificially frosted. One only needs to look at the cert numbers of three of the coins I returned to make you highly suspect of the OP coin. The photo of the full slab sealed it for me.
It's up to you what to do at this point. If I can be of any assistance, please PM me.
I hope that others will learn from this thread. Thanks for posting it Rocco, this issue has not resurfaced in years. I can only imagine what proofs are in old collections in bank vaults......
Here are a couple of photos that might help.
From an old Heritage auction from 2010:
And another from my archive - cert 21033751 (not my coin):
The doctors worked on proof cents thru halves from 1936 to 1964 - didn't see other coins but that is possible. As a public service to the members of these forums, if you have proof coins that were purchased 15 years ago that have been in storage for a long time, I recommend getting them out and taking a look, especially if the cert numbers and holders are similar.
I wish this whole mess had not happened. But PCGS was more than professional in handling it.
Adding my 55 quarter, will look for the others but that was a long time ago.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
I went back and looked at reverse, and you might be right Cameonut as I see a tint of blue.
Aspie, you're over thinking it. Nice coin. Relax.
If the photo that @davewesen posted is the reverse of @Aspie_Rocco piece, it causes me to pause.
Based on the obverse images alone I am 90% certain it was doctored. But now that I see the reverse I am not as sure.
Remember that the goal was to deceive the graders and get cameo and deep cameo grades. The doctors took coins that missed these designations and enhanced them to get what they wanted. The coins fooled the graders and they were good enough to fool me. The deception only had to last long enough to get the coins sold at high prices. The assumption was that PCGS would guarantee the coins and they would keep the profits.
What happened to these coins as they aged is that the material that was applied to the devices started to change. It started to turn cloudy as you can see in the photos I posted. You also see a blue tinge as well. It sometimes bled into the fields.
These coins were graded in 2001-2 - a long time ago. I returned mine a couple of years later after only two years of aging. Fast forward another 14 years. Who knows what the doctored coins should look like? I haven't seen another one for over 8 years until I saw this coin.
I notice that the artificial frost is only on the portrait and none has bled into the fields as occurred on a couple of mine. The reverse is confusing to me. If the doctors intended to get a cameo designation, why didn't they try to enhance the reverse more? Don't know. Perhaps this is one of the earlier pieces they tried as they were refining their process. I see a little blue haze but figure there should be more.
Anyway, the reverse introduces some doubt into the equation. The obverse, the time frame, and the cert number makes me nervous and less confident it was doctored.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
the reverse does have more bleeding into the fields and a light blue on Monticello, so still could be art frosted
Looks like gas bubbles next to the date. See them alot. Since they are in a slab, they are protected from collapse or damage or rupture. Peace Roy
BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall
Interesting thread and thank you @Cameonut for the information. I recall this issue and Russ told me about it and how to spot it. Cheers, RickO
I agree with Cameonut; however, I never knew who was doing the alterations. I was at PCI in 2002 and we even received these altered Proofs until it became obvious to the submitters that they couldn't get even one past us. This is no slap-in-the-face to the other services because new types of state-of-the-art alterations and counterfeits are VERY RARELY caught at first. The stereomicroscope and fluorescent light saved our butts. Using that light, in combination with a low power scope, you are able to tell the difference between an actual frosted surface and a "painted" one.
Coins with altered "frost" (both Proof and MS) were around in the early 70's. Only the chemicals and techniques of applying them seem to have improved over the years. One of my favorite stories in class occurred back in the 80's when I tried to alert a VIP at one of the new services of these "adulterations" that were being graded by his company. When I showed him one of the coins in his slab from my teaching set and said there were hundreds more at the show, he looked at the coin with only his eyes and then said: "It's only an 81-S."
This same chemical alteration appeared on gold coins, mostly to hide marks or give the coin "skin." Over time, it changes color turns blueish). Detection is child's play as the chemical covering all or parts of the surface "jumps right out" using the ONLY correct light for authentication. BTW, there is a very good reason that 75-100W lights are used at the TPGS's. I have one on my desk too for the initial "look."
PS IMO, the top two TPGS generally get the new fakes/alterations first. If they catch them, the crooks try the other services.
My first doctored coin!
I had hoped with the low profile Jefferson Nickels have, to not have to worry about such things. Thank you @Cameonut and @Insider2 for the crash course
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
I love these coins and I'm sorry somebody was fooled by that one. One thing to remember about these early Jeffersons is that they were not intended to be cameo. Only by chance were there any that approach real cameo. The few chances happened when new obverse and reverse dies were put into service. Some dies were damaged during use and rarely were new dies paired together. Here is one of the nicer examples you will find although not highest grade.
Some more photos
I picked this coin for the holder grade and the tone appearance on Jefferson. I had hoped the hazy looking area was some toning, not cameo or doctoring.
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
As far as the 1940 nickels there are some nice cameos graded. This one was Pf 66 Star and now NGC Pf 67 after NCS conservation. Note near cameo contrast but not enough for cameo designation.
Glad to help. I actually wish I had a doctored coin from that era for reference. The coins I had returned at the time were pricey so I didn't want to tie up funds just for an example of a doctored coin.
After further thought I would actually consider keeping it for what it is. Don't know how much $$ is tied up but is surely is less than if PCGS had graded it a cameo (only $6500 in the price guide - now you can see why the doctors played the game). What matters is what you think of the coin and what you want to do with it.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
I spent $300 on it. Not sure if I want to keep it for reference. Studying it in my microscope has it etched in my mind. I will probably return it unless someone else wants it. I hate doing that, particularly with a 1938.
I do not see reverse tampering at all on this coin. The little gouges also leave me feeling meh on this one.
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
If the photos you provided are accurate, I would have passed on this piece, as it appears that it has been 'jacked' in one way or another Jmo.
Here is another thing to keep in mind. In order to be a "true Cameo," the frost must be full and complete on the relief. That's one reason this did not get the designation. Also, the plastic these coins were housed in often became brittle and stuck to the coin's surface. This causes a haze to form with a reaction rim. That may be the case here as there appears to be a dark shape in the middle of the coat.
Keep it. I suspect this is plastic haze now rather than a doctored coin. The other coins in the thread are doctored.
That hazy area is a puzzlement. Wonder if a chemical was applied with a fine brush or swab, which is why it did did not reach the edges of the profile. IMO. Glad Insider2 shared his experience. Peace Roy
BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall
Interesting read and history lesson about doctoring, @Cameonut. Thank you all.
I know the haze has been discussed quite a bit. The marks next to the date sure look strike throughs to me, which is why there is no displaced metal.
Interesting! That is what I thought of those. Or planchet flaws but seems like it would fill up on strike Thank you for addressing that. I am Not sure if such a thing add or subtracts value?
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
In this particular case, I think it would lower the value rather than drive a premium. While they won't effect the grade assigned, because they are caused during the strike and not post strike, they do lower the eye appeal. If the strike throughs were larger or across Jefferson or partially blocking the date, they may attract the attention of error collectors.
Personally I would inquire about returning the coin. In my opinion the haze and the strike throughs will make this coin a tougher sell in the future for you or your heirs.
That's an awfully expensive reference. Take good pictures and keep those, instead. This coin has been futzed with.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
Based upon Insider2 comments, I would be tempted to submit the coin for "restoration" by PCGS. And provide specific guidance as to the questionability of the coin's surfaces. A dip in acetone should remove any substance used to make the coin cameo? IS2 might know.
And do not overlook marrying a woman with crooked teeth........they can be fixed. Just look out for women that are too perfect in every respect........ the point being that we are attracted by beautiful coins and beautiful women. Finding the flaws is not very easy.
OINK
RETURN it ..... too many un-answered questions. I think you can do better with that kind of monies IMHO
I check and it has no returns on the listing
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
Very very FUNNY ....... in contrary I think finding the flaws is very easy but finding a woman who's practically perfect is less easy
While perfect coin are fairly common, IMO a perfect woman is a true rarity. Most change after the ring goes on. It is only a matter of how long it takes for that change to occur.
"big ring"