Another PR67 arrives, weirdest tone and surface damage

Aspie_RoccoAspie_Rocco Posts: 1,125 ✭✭✭✭✭

Requesting opinions

I just acquired the strangest PR67 1938 that I have ever encountered. A cameo like tone that is practically invisible with a loupe or up close. Also there are two blemishes around the date.





Comments

  • Aspie_RoccoAspie_Rocco Posts: 1,125 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Data throttling is jamming me up online. I had to repost from a draft.
    It seems almost like planchet flaws to me, since it does not have a raised perimeter around the indentations.

  • jabbajabba Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭

    Looks like the die was coming apart or had been reworked badly

  • abcde12345abcde12345 Posts: 1,402 ✭✭✭✭

    Cleaning/dipping done gone bad?

  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 2,100 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I suspect someone had oil on their thumb when they pressed the coin into some sort of holder. From the seller's pics it did not look like fs-402 or fs-403, is it?

  • Aspie_RoccoAspie_Rocco Posts: 1,125 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2018 3:00PM

    @davewesen
    I cannot decide if I really like it or not. I am usually in love with these 1938 pr67 but this one has me wondering.

    ;) 403

  • Aspie_RoccoAspie_Rocco Posts: 1,125 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2018 3:08PM

    @jabba said:
    Looks like the die was coming apart or had been reworked badly

    It is the 403 re engraved obverse design. The letters and numbers along with the ribbon were all enhanced. All reverses on 38 proofs seems to have the same detail.
    This detail is found on 1939 proofs too. 39 has multiple ribbon designs too, but I have said this for years now. Hunter heads up.
    There is a 39
    402 style
    403 style
    And some other minor enhancements
    The 39 r 40 has two! One is a large question mark?! Has anyone else Seen that yet?

  • @Aspie_Rocco said:
    Requesting opinions

    >

    Just an observation. This photo and that blob and the little streaking, below the 5, looks like a angled drop of solder.

    Do not know; just an observation.

  • Aspie_RoccoAspie_Rocco Posts: 1,125 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It does sort of look like that. They are deep like gouges but must have happened before striking, as my best guess. There is no metal pushed out of the recessed areas that I can see > @Hemispherical said:

    @Aspie_Rocco said:
    Requesting opinions

    >

    Just an observation. This photo and that blob and the little streaking, below the 5, looks like a angled drop of solder.

    Do not know; just an observation.

  • georgiacop50georgiacop50 Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2018 4:15PM

    Very weird. What does @Insider2 think?

  • RayboRaybo Posts: 4,168 ✭✭✭✭

    I don't get that grade at ALL!

  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 2,100 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I went back and looked at reverse, and you might be right Cameonut as I see a tint of blue.

  • HydrantHydrant Posts: 1,411 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Aspie, you're over thinking it. Nice coin. Relax.

  • CameonutCameonut Posts: 5,774 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If the photo that @davewesen posted is the reverse of @Aspie_Rocco piece, it causes me to pause.

    Based on the obverse images alone I am 90% certain it was doctored. But now that I see the reverse I am not as sure.

    Remember that the goal was to deceive the graders and get cameo and deep cameo grades. The doctors took coins that missed these designations and enhanced them to get what they wanted. The coins fooled the graders and they were good enough to fool me. The deception only had to last long enough to get the coins sold at high prices. The assumption was that PCGS would guarantee the coins and they would keep the profits.

    What happened to these coins as they aged is that the material that was applied to the devices started to change. It started to turn cloudy as you can see in the photos I posted. You also see a blue tinge as well. It sometimes bled into the fields.

    These coins were graded in 2001-2 - a long time ago. I returned mine a couple of years later after only two years of aging. Fast forward another 14 years. Who knows what the doctored coins should look like? I haven't seen another one for over 8 years until I saw this coin.

    I notice that the artificial frost is only on the portrait and none has bled into the fields as occurred on a couple of mine. The reverse is confusing to me. If the doctors intended to get a cameo designation, why didn't they try to enhance the reverse more? Don't know. Perhaps this is one of the earlier pieces they tried as they were refining their process. I see a little blue haze but figure there should be more.

    Anyway, the reverse introduces some doubt into the equation. The obverse, the time frame, and the cert number makes me nervous and less confident it was doctored.

    “In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. - Thomas Jefferson

    My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!

  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 2,100 ✭✭✭✭✭

    the reverse does have more bleeding into the fields and a light blue on Monticello, so still could be art frosted

  • Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭✭

    Looks like gas bubbles next to the date. See them alot. Since they are in a slab, they are protected from collapse or damage or rupture. Peace Roy

  • rickoricko Posts: 61,695 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting thread and thank you @Cameonut for the information. I recall this issue and Russ told me about it and how to spot it. Cheers, RickO

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 8,426 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree with Cameonut; however, I never knew who was doing the alterations. I was at PCI in 2002 and we even received these altered Proofs until it became obvious to the submitters that they couldn't get even one past us. This is no slap-in-the-face to the other services because new types of state-of-the-art alterations and counterfeits are VERY RARELY caught at first. The stereomicroscope and fluorescent light saved our butts. Using that light, in combination with a low power scope, you are able to tell the difference between an actual frosted surface and a "painted" one.

    Coins with altered "frost" (both Proof and MS) were around in the early 70's. Only the chemicals and techniques of applying them seem to have improved over the years. One of my favorite stories in class occurred back in the 80's when I tried to alert a VIP at one of the new services of these "adulterations" that were being graded by his company. When I showed him one of the coins in his slab from my teaching set and said there were hundreds more at the show, he looked at the coin with only his eyes and then said: "It's only an 81-S." :(

    This same chemical alteration appeared on gold coins, mostly to hide marks or give the coin "skin." Over time, it changes color turns blueish). Detection is child's play as the chemical covering all or parts of the surface "jumps right out" using the ONLY correct light for authentication. BTW, there is a very good reason that 75-100W lights are used at the TPGS's. I have one on my desk too for the initial "look."

    PS IMO, the top two TPGS generally get the new fakes/alterations first. If they catch them, the crooks try the other services.

  • Aspie_RoccoAspie_Rocco Posts: 1,125 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My first doctored coin! :'( :s :(
    I had hoped with the low profile Jefferson Nickels have, to not have to worry about such things. Thank you @Cameonut and @Insider2 for the crash course

  • fiftysevenerfiftysevener Posts: 214 ✭✭✭

    I love these coins and I'm sorry somebody was fooled by that one. One thing to remember about these early Jeffersons is that they were not intended to be cameo. Only by chance were there any that approach real cameo. The few chances happened when new obverse and reverse dies were put into service. Some dies were damaged during use and rarely were new dies paired together. Here is one of the nicer examples you will find although not highest grade.

  • Aspie_RoccoAspie_Rocco Posts: 1,125 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2018 7:50AM

    Some more photos
    I picked this coin for the holder grade and the tone appearance on Jefferson. I had hoped the hazy looking area was some toning, not cameo or doctoring.



  • fiftysevenerfiftysevener Posts: 214 ✭✭✭

    As far as the 1940 nickels there are some nice cameos graded. This one was Pf 66 Star and now NGC Pf 67 after NCS conservation. Note near cameo contrast but not enough for cameo designation.

  • CameonutCameonut Posts: 5,774 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Aspie_Rocco said:
    My first doctored coin! :'( :s :(
    I had hoped with the low profile Jefferson Nickels have, to not have to worry about such things. Thank you @Cameonut and @Insider2 for the crash course

    Glad to help. I actually wish I had a doctored coin from that era for reference. The coins I had returned at the time were pricey so I didn't want to tie up funds just for an example of a doctored coin.

    After further thought I would actually consider keeping it for what it is. Don't know how much $$ is tied up but is surely is less than if PCGS had graded it a cameo (only $6500 in the price guide - now you can see why the doctors played the game). What matters is what you think of the coin and what you want to do with it.

    “In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. - Thomas Jefferson

    My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!

  • Aspie_RoccoAspie_Rocco Posts: 1,125 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I spent $300 on it. Not sure if I want to keep it for reference. Studying it in my microscope has it etched in my mind. I will probably return it unless someone else wants it. I hate doing that, particularly with a 1938.

    I do not see reverse tampering at all on this coin. The little gouges also leave me feeling meh :/ on this one.

  • batumibatumi Posts: 242 ✭✭✭

    If the photos you provided are accurate, I would have passed on this piece, as it appears that it has been 'jacked' in one way or another Jmo.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 8,426 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2018 9:21AM

    @Aspie_Rocco said: "Some more photos:"

    Here is another thing to keep in mind. In order to be a "true Cameo," the frost must be full and complete on the relief. That's one reason this did not get the designation. Also, the plastic these coins were housed in often became brittle and stuck to the coin's surface. This causes a haze to form with a reaction rim. That may be the case here as there appears to be a dark shape in the middle of the coat.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 8,426 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Aspie_Rocco said:
    I spent $300 on it. Not sure if I want to keep it for reference. Studying it in my microscope has it etched in my mind. I will probably return it unless someone else wants it. I hate doing that, particularly with a 1938.

    I do not see reverse tampering at all on this coin. The little gouges also leave me feeling meh :/ on this one.

    Keep it. I suspect this is plastic haze now rather than a doctored coin. The other coins in the thread are doctored.

  • Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭✭

    That hazy area is a puzzlement. Wonder if a chemical was applied with a fine brush or swab, which is why it did did not reach the edges of the profile. IMO. Glad Insider2 shared his experience. Peace Roy

  • Interesting read and history lesson about doctoring, @Cameonut. Thank you all.

  • jtlee321jtlee321 Posts: 1,952 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I know the haze has been discussed quite a bit. The marks next to the date sure look strike throughs to me, which is why there is no displaced metal.

  • Aspie_RoccoAspie_Rocco Posts: 1,125 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2018 3:12PM

    @jtlee321 said:
    I know the haze has been discussed quite a bit. The marks next to the date sure look strike throughs to me, which is why there is no displaced metal.

    Interesting! That is what I thought of those. Or planchet flaws but seems like it would fill up on strike Thank you for addressing that. I am Not sure if such a thing add or subtracts value?

  • jtlee321jtlee321 Posts: 1,952 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Aspie_Rocco said:

    @jtlee321 said:
    I know the haze has been discussed quite a bit. The marks next to the date sure look strike throughs to me, which is why there is no displaced metal.

    Interesting! That is what I thought of those. Or planchet flaws but seems like it would fill up on strike Thank you for addressing that. I am Not sure if such a thing add or subtracts value?

    In this particular case, I think it would lower the value rather than drive a premium. While they won't effect the grade assigned, because they are caused during the strike and not post strike, they do lower the eye appeal. If the strike throughs were larger or across Jefferson or partially blocking the date, they may attract the attention of error collectors.

    Personally I would inquire about returning the coin. In my opinion the haze and the strike throughs will make this coin a tougher sell in the future for you or your heirs.

  • OldIndianNutKaseOldIndianNutKase Posts: 1,808 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Based upon Insider2 comments, I would be tempted to submit the coin for "restoration" by PCGS. And provide specific guidance as to the questionability of the coin's surfaces. A dip in acetone should remove any substance used to make the coin cameo? IS2 might know.

    And do not overlook marrying a woman with crooked teeth........they can be fixed. Just look out for women that are too perfect in every respect........ the point being that we are attracted by beautiful coins and beautiful women. Finding the flaws is not very easy.

    OINK

  • ParadisefoundParadisefound Posts: 4,823 ✭✭✭✭✭

    RETURN it ..... too many un-answered questions. I think you can do better with that kind of monies IMHO ;)

    @Aspie_Rocco said:
    I spent $300 on it. Not sure if I want to keep it for reference. Studying it in my microscope has it etched in my mind. I will probably return it unless someone else wants it. I hate doing that, particularly with a 1938.

    I do not see reverse tampering at all on this coin. The little gouges also leave me feeling meh :/ on this one.

  • ParadisefoundParadisefound Posts: 4,823 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very very FUNNY ....... in contrary I think finding the flaws is very easy but finding a woman who's practically perfect is less easy :D

    @OldIndianNutKase said:
    And do not overlook marrying a woman with crooked teeth........they can be fixed. Just look out for women that are too perfect in every respect........ the point being that we are attracted by beautiful coins and beautiful women. Finding the flaws is not very easy.

    OINK

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 8,426 ✭✭✭✭✭

    While perfect coin are fairly common, IMO a perfect woman is a true rarity. Most change after the ring goes on. It is only a matter of how long it takes for that change to occur.

  • ParadisefoundParadisefound Posts: 4,823 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "big ring"

    @Insider2 said:
    While perfect coin are fairly common, IMO a perfect woman is a true rarity. Most change after the ring goes on. It is only a matter of how long it takes for that change to occur.

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