Filthy, dirty, crusty Southern gold with an incredible pedigree - GTG added (Grades Revealed)...

Regulated · October 13, 2018 5:52PM

I was doing some research on Pioneer Gold this afternoon, and ended up looking up the 1902 "Catalogue of the Collections of United States Coins of William R. Weeks and Augustus Humbert" from the Chapman Brothers. The copy I was looking at had notes in it, and identified the 141-Grain A. Bechtler $5 as "dark", which immediately reminded me of one of my very favorite Bechtlers of all time, an example that belongs to a good friend on the boards. His specimen is highly lustrous and prooflike on the obverse, with deep walnut brown toning accented by blue iridescence. It's an incredibly rare coin with only 15 known examples (I think three or four are locked up in museums).

There was no plate in Weeks, but most of Humbert's material in that sale was bought by Andrew Zabriskie, and sold as a part of his collection in 1909. The plates from that sale confirmed my suspicion - it's the same coin. Interestingly, Humbert spent time in the Appalachian gold fields, and very well may have collected the coin in the wild.

This is one for the lovers of crusty, original coins with perfect pedigrees:

asheland · October 13, 2018 6:40PM

I love it!

coinsarefun · October 13, 2018 6:43PM

Awesome!

jwitten · October 13, 2018 6:44PM

VERY nice!!!

Catbert · October 13, 2018 6:46PM

Loved learning about the story behind this coin. Thanks!

ms70 · October 13, 2018 6:48PM

Great coin, great history. Thanks for posting this.

tyler267 · October 13, 2018 6:50PM

Regulated I like your threads.

Regulated · October 13, 2018 6:55PM

@tyler267 said:
Regulated I like your threads.

That's the first time I've been called a snappy dresser...

Oh!

Unknown · October 13, 2018 6:55PM

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Smudge · October 13, 2018 6:55PM

That is a keeper. Love it.

CharlotteDude · October 13, 2018 6:57PM

She's a lovely Sheila!

Paradisefound · October 13, 2018 8:25PM

DCW · October 13, 2018 8:36PM

Incredible piece!
Anything in the Zabriskie Collection, I'd be comfortable buying sight unseen. (Especially the Lincoln exonumia.)
I read the 1999 Sotheby's sale catalogue of his medals and tokens to my kids en lieu of bedtime stories.

CaptHenway · October 13, 2018 9:15PM

The Zabriskie Point!

crazyhounddog · October 13, 2018 9:33PM

Will ya look at that! Love it all the way.

Timbuk3 · October 14, 2018 3:45AM

Wow,"sweet" !!!

ricko · October 14, 2018 6:50AM

Nice old gold... with history.....Cheers, RickO

AlexinPA · October 14, 2018 8:06AM

Magnificent.

CaptHenway · October 14, 2018 8:07AM

I assume that this was buried in the ground in a leather purse?

DCW · October 14, 2018 8:58AM

@CaptHenway said:
I assume that this was buried in the ground in a leather purse?

It certainly has that "leather purse" toning look.

Regulated · October 14, 2018 11:13AM

@CaptHenway said:
I assume that this was buried in the ground in a leather purse?

I can imagine a leather purse or wooden container that off-gassed a bit, but I think the Humbert pedigree doesn't suggest a ground find or incredibly weird storage. It's only 83% gold with a lot of silver in it, so I'm pretty sure the extreme toning is more a function of what it is and the fact that it hasn't been futzed with by a coin dealer trying to make it fit his idea of "purdy".

Regulated · October 14, 2018 11:28AM

As an aside, I've seen a couple other pieces that Humbert owned that were REALLY original, and I suspect that he (and Zabriskie) didn't clean or mishandle things, although I've seen a piece or two that were really messed with in the last 50 years (including the $10 Oregon Exchange piece that no longer has a hole in it).

Here's one of the nicer, unmessed-with things that Humbert put back when he was at the Assay Office:

Regulated · October 14, 2018 11:40AM

Now let's play GTG on both pieces...

Smudge · October 14, 2018 12:00PM

You realize that porn is not allowed on this forum.

CaptHenway · October 14, 2018 12:12PM

@Regulated said:
As an aside, I've seen a couple other pieces that Humbert owned that were REALLY original, and I suspect that he (and Zabriskie) didn't clean or mishandle things, although I've seen a piece or two that were really messed with in the last 50 years (including the $10 Oregon Exchange piece that no longer has a hole in it).

Here's one of the nicer, unmessed-with things that Humbert put back when he was at the Assay Office:

SHAZAM!

ms70 · October 14, 2018 12:16PM

I came back to look again. I REALLY like it.

MilkmanDan · October 14, 2018 12:24PM

AU58 for the Bechtler, MS64 for the slug.

Smudge · October 14, 2018 12:26PM

@Regulated said:
Now let's play GTG on both pieces...

You have got to be kidding. My joke 63+65.

kaz · October 14, 2018 12:29PM

great thread,amazing coins.

Regulated · October 14, 2018 12:45PM

The reveal on this pair will be a lot of fun.

tyler267 · October 14, 2018 12:45PM

That slug is amazing.

Great detective work on the Bechtler, amazing coin also.

ilikemonsters · October 14, 2018 1:16PM

$5 Bechtler - XF40
$50 Humbert - MS63

jonruns · October 14, 2018 1:26PM

Because of the crude production of these territorials, grading is really hard...the best guesses I can manage:

A. Bechtler $5: AU50 to 55

Humbert $50: MS63 to 65

7Jaguars · October 14, 2018 2:38PM

I've got to go 65 on the slug. Fabulous almost proof strike with great detail and only minimal distractions for a very nice territorial gold that I could only pause at guessing the value of!

CWT1863 · October 14, 2018 2:39PM

Bechtler: AU 55

Humbert: MS 65

breakdown · October 14, 2018 2:54PM

Love these coins and stories.
Bechtler:AU55
Humbert: MS64

DCW · October 14, 2018 2:54PM

XF45, MS65 respectively.

Sunshine Rare Coins · October 14, 2018 3:37PM

XF-45 - Bechtler

PR-65 - Slug

TheRegulator · October 14, 2018 5:37PM

The Bechtler is a 53.
I'll guess the Humbert is a 64.

Regulated · October 14, 2018 6:54PM

The Bechtler is currently very conservatively graded in a PCGS AU53 holder. It's nicer than many AU55s that I've seen, and frankly, I'd rather own it than MANY Bechtlers that have graded mint state after being processed. The slug was graded PR65 by PCGS, and is the only proof slug in private hands, although another example was sent to the Mint in 1851, and now lives at the Smithsonian.

MrEureka · October 14, 2018 7:56PM

@afford said:
Who would not love that beauty.

Clothes makes the man!

TheRegulator · October 14, 2018 8:50PM

Beautiful and fascinating pieces. Thanks for sharing.

Do you agree with the proof designation? Can such a piece even be called a proof or would proof-like be more appropriate?

MrEureka · October 14, 2018 9:38PM

@TheRegulator said:
Beautiful and fascinating pieces. Thanks for sharing.

Do you agree with the proof designation? Can such a piece even be called a proof or would proof-like be more appropriate?

For this particular piece - a coin struck at a mint without a medal press - freshly polished dies and an extraordinary strike gets me to SP. Add a specially prepared planchet to the mix and I get to PR. But that’s just me.

Regulated · October 14, 2018 9:54PM

The coin was unquestionably intended to be special, and was made differently than the regular production issues.

At the moment, it's become fashionable to very narrowly define the term "proof" - a tendency that I understand. Whether this piece gets a PR for Proof, an SP for Specially Struck (or specimen, or whatever SP stands for this week), or an HS for HOLY SHIT, it stands alone.

cameonut2011 · October 14, 2018 11:12PM

XF45
PF63+

CaptHenway · October 15, 2018 7:36AM

@Regulated said:
The coin was unquestionably intended to be special, and was made differently than the regular production issues.

At the moment, it's become fashionable to very narrowly define the term "proof" - a tendency that I understand. Whether this piece gets a PR for Proof, an SP for Specially Struck (or specimen, or whatever SP stands for this week), or an HS for HOLY SHIT, it stands alone.

SH-65 for SHAZAM!

topstuf · October 15, 2018 8:17AM

@Regulated said:
The Bechtler is currently very conservatively graded in a PCGS AU53 holder. It's nicer than many AU55s that I've seen, and frankly, I'd rather own it than MANY Bechtlers that have graded mint state after being processed. The slug was graded PR65 by PCGS, and is the only proof slug in private hands, although another example was sent to the Mint in 1851, and now lives at the Smithsonian.

Good thing that it was first found before anyone had invented ...dip.

asheland · October 15, 2018 11:28AM

Bechtler AU50
The slug MS63

au58 · October 15, 2018 2:06PM

@Regulated said:
The Bechtler is currently very conservatively graded in a PCGS AU53 holder. It's nicer than many AU55s that I've seen, and frankly, I'd rather own it than MANY Bechtlers that have graded mint state after being processed. The slug was graded PR65 by PCGS, and is the only proof slug in private hands, although another example was sent to the Mint in 1851, and now lives at the Smithsonian.

But how will we ever be sure? Have they gone to CAC yet?

RogerB · October 15, 2018 2:30PM

The slug in question might have been made as a sample to show the full design. However, it is not a "proof coin" by definition. This kind of definition creep, like grade inflation, is common among those selling stuff who want to pump up the price. Simply put, the coin's quality is self evident and it needs no slip-n-slide "proofiness" to realize fair value.

CharlotteDude · October 15, 2018 2:42PM

I'm going to go AU-50 on the Bechtler - actual XF-45 wear, but bumped up to a '50 due to eye-appeal. The Humbert is a 64 at least.

'dude

Filthy, dirty, crusty Southern gold with an incredible pedigree - GTG added (Grades Revealed)...

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