Are nickels without rays counterfeit?
RogerB
Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
Sometimes the Mint folks didn't take time to fully test a new design. This was a problem with the new five-cent copper-nickel coins with rays (or 'bars') between stars on the reverse. It was quickly learned that the rays weakened dies and caused numerous cracks and breaks. A new reverse without rays was approved in late January but coins had already been issued in 1867 with rays. This quick change was ignored by many but confused some, as this letter will attest.
New York
April 1, 1867
To:
Director of U.S. Mint
Dear Sir,
Enclosed you will find a five cent coin which one of my family offered at a store in this city, and was told by the person in attendance that it is a counterfeit because of its not having the bars between the stars, and who declined to receive it. I am under the impression that the person is decidedly wrong. Will you please inform me wether [sic] it is or is not a genuine U.S. Mint issue, and wether [sic] the present year issue have the bars or not.
Yours truly,
Scott Lovett
131 Fulton St.
Comments
"I am under the impression that the person is decidedly wrong."
I will enjoy seeing this phrase on more forum comments
Pacific Northwest Numismatic Association
Interesting post, thanks.
Hmm, that's pretty early in the year for the new ones to be out, any records as to when they stopped the rays and started the no rays in 1867
Steve
For those who are not familar with these type coins.
An 1866 "With Rays" Nickel
And here is the design with the rays removed.
I’m pretty sure they called those, Stars & bars. The mint removed those stars and bars after the civil war cause from what I remember most folks associated those with the south. As far as all being counterfeit I gotta say no. Maybe some but no.
Nice handwriting
I was thinking that may have had something to do with it, although I have never heard or read that to be the case
Steve
I have never heard that story. I thought that the technical problems mentioned in Roger's OP was the reason for the change.
Interesting read. I'm pretty sure people today would accept anything round and silver as a US quarter. There's so many designs nobody would know the difference.
January 31, 1867, was the last coining day for the nickels with rays.
The term "stars and bars" shows up as early as 1870, per the Newman Portal.
Anyone care to check 1866 newspapers to see if the new nickels created comments about "stars and bars?" The phrase would likely have been well known, especially in the rebellious areas.
Interesting information....I had not heard the story about 'stars and bars', but sounds plausible. Though the minting issue is more likely...Probably the story about the stars and bars was a public creation as a possible cause for the change. When no official explanation was forthcoming, as usual, the public will offer 'answers'....we see it all the time. Cheers, RickO
I've found nothing in the archives indicating there was a public announcement or "circular letter" issued to newspapers on the subject. (Have not had time to check the TV kinescope films ---- or maybe the announcement was in a tweet that vanished since no one had a 'smart' phone...?)
I've have wondered for years if there was a 1866 No Rays die produced...and used. That would be an interesting pattern/variety. Perhaps @howards could shed some light on this?
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If you look at @Billjones post above with the 1866 nickel with rays you can clearly see the technical reason the rays were removed. They caused an issue with the stars and cracks, cuds etc after a low number of die strikes. That said, his nickel is a well struck example of a coin that is a total PITA to find a nicely struck up full split bands in the shield example of.
Hmmm...last time I tried to see split bands I found they left.
.
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It was about 150 years later, but right after the Washington dollars came out I tried to spend some at Dunkin Donuts and they refused to take them the
Cashier told me that I have to pay with real money.
I'd have a comeback smart assed comment like "Maybe I'll pay you real money if your coffee was real"
I wasn't that quick on my feet, I just said OK and paid them with real money.
It seems that there was a counterfeit nickel epidemic back then. This is just one report from The Philadelphia Enquirer dated April 18, 1867. Another article talked about a big Nickel bust in Cincinnati.
That one would be a neat counterfeit to find.
Pete
Edited to add: If January 31, 1867 is the date that the Mint stopped coining Nickels with rays, the above coin would indeed be counterfeit.
....or maybe word of the revised design had not gotten around as much as we presume?
Only as a pattern: J500.
It seems to me that it is unlikely that the pattern coin was struck in 1866. More likely at a later date.
http://www.shieldnickels.net