About a year under my belt of coin collecting, at that stage where all I think about is coins and if I read anything it's about coins. I'm 100% positive I know enough to be 100% dangerous.
With this battle royale between NGC and PCGS over the past couple of months, it shows the world that we coin collectors aren't boring.
PCGS or NGC grades, I'm sure most are spot on and some off a bit,
But PCGS has taken the lead in providing collectors incredible resources and bringing coin collecting into the Internet age.
As a new collector I have found no resources come close to those available from PCGS (website, phone apps and YouTube videos ( on grading, pop, prices and history)).
PCGS has kept me very busy and helped my coin knowledge and enjoyment of the hobby grow.
I can't thank you and the entire PCGS staff and member base enough for what you have done for new and seasoned collectors in just a few clicks. Nothing comes close.
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
PCGS graders have over 250 years of experience. All of our grading is done through a sophisticated grading system which reflects this knowledge and was developed over 30 years of operational experience.
We can assure every collector and dealer around the world that PCGS has always been, and always will be, committed to providing the most accurate and impartial grading in the market.
Sincerely,
Don Willis
Don,
Can you clarify? Is all the grading done in-house, or is some, such as some Modern farmed out to graders not in-house? I've heard some is farmed out...is that true? Or, is ALL GRADING done in-house?
"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went." Will Rogers
I have seen coins in both ngc and pcgs holders that were spot on graded, and also some that were so badly misgraded it looked like the graders had taken the day off!! (not many but a few) There was that 1913 type one buffalo graded ms65 that looked like a 61 and
there was ........
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
@BUFFNIXX said:
Mr. Salzburg said that other services had been allowed in the NGC registry. Was there any other service other than
PCGS? Anacs? ICG?? NNC????
Only PCGS until the end of 2016. Now it's NGC graded coins only.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
If I had a coin conserved by PCGS, and it's showing spots and streaking again after 4 years (I'd stored it in an Intercept Shield in air-conditioned comfort) , is there any recourse?
Does PCGS still slab coins with a "genuine" label only?
I have a coin that I know is whizzed or altered surfaces but I want to get it into plastic. Or will it just get body bagged?
They have a box you can check on the form if you DON'T want a "genuine" coin holdered. If you do want them to put your coin in a genuine holder, simply do NOT check that box and they will holder it.
@DonWillis said:
PCGS is the world’s leading grading service for many reasons, most importantly because we operate with a level of transparency and objectivity that is unmatched in the industry. PCGS has always been and will continue to be the most effective Consumer Protection advocate in the coin market.
PCGS is also a tough competitor. We set the standard for third party grading 30 years ago. Every other grading service has attempted to copy that standard and has been playing a game of catch up for all these years. Mark Salzberg, Chairman of NGC, recently published an open letter wherein he attempted to smear PCGS and strike fear in the hearts of collectors.
In regards to increasing populations, first of all we confess to being the most popular grading service. We process many more Vintage coins than NGC. Secondly, populations rarely go down. There are always hidden collections, accumulations or hoards that come out. As Mr. Salzberg probably knows but failed to mention, there have been several original rolls of 1912-S 5c that have come to the market in the past few years. In 2016 PCGS handled at least 2 fresh rolls of gem 1912-S 5c. These rolls were handled by some of the most knowledgeable dealers in the business. We are proud of the fact that these individuals, who have great insight in to the coin market, chose PCGS to grade their coins.
Another phenomena contributing to increased PCGS populations is our crossover service. Many collectors and dealers who own coins graded by other grading services attempt to cross their coins into PCGS holders. As a matter of fact many dealers deliberately buy NGC coins and cross them to PCGS at a lower grade, subsequently selling them at a profit. Simply look at many of the coins sold in the recent Newman and Partrick auctions by Heritage and you can see for yourself how many have already been crossed over.
PCGS graders have over 250 years of experience. All of our grading is done through a sophisticated grading system which reflects this knowledge and was developed over 30 years of operational experience. The market’s confidence in PCGS graded coins is greater than ever. As we recently reported all of the top 20 coins sold in auction during 2016 were graded by PCGS. As we have also reported, over 80% of all CAC coins sold in recent auctions were PCGS coins. CAC is a respected independent organization with no ties to PCGS yet based on public information 4 out of 5 coins they approve have been graded by PCGS.
We can assure every collector and dealer around the world that PCGS has always been, and always will be, committed to providing the most accurate and impartial grading in the market.
Sincerely,
Don Willis
Don baby, you're forgetting the best part of why PCGS is head & tails above NGC, the capsulation of NGC coins is Horrid, plain & simple + PCGS knows how to make a coin look Spectacular. I can't stand my NGC coins, I want to walk into my bathroom and sucker punch myself for buying more After I bought the 1st one. Eh, lesson learned...
Abandon All Hope-Ye Who Enters Here...Dante Alighieri
No question about our hosts reputation. top notch.
So why is it that quit a few large dealers and auction houses send their stuff to NGC?
Will not use names here , but I am sure you are all aware of who they are.
and, question # 2:
why are Canadian coins and world coins priced differently for grading?
a coin is a coin is a coin and the same criteria applies for grading.
above 2 questions have been hiding in my few brain cells for some time now.
does anyone have definite answers ?
thanks
When the coins were received and when due to be shipped.
Therefore:
Red label = Tier of service
5 = #of coins
61288 = customer #
A229 = ? Perhaps what the grader is having for lunch today? The importance of the dealer (A, B, C,) and # of previous submissions. NO! I'll bet it is the due date! No, there would be no need to code the dates as everyone should see that info. Only the submitter should be a secret.
@Insider2 said: I don't know but this is my GUESS.
What is absolutely needed for a box to ID it?
The number of coins.
Type of service.
Who the coins belong to.
When the coins were received and when due to be shipped.
Therefore:
Red label = Tier of service
5 = #of coins
61288 = customer #
A229 = ? Perhaps what the grader is having for lunch today? The importance of the dealer (A, B, C,) and # of previous submissions. NO! I'll bet it is the due date! No, there would be no need to code the dates as everyone should see that info. Only the submitter should be a secret.
How did I do?
Red label = Tier of service, didn't think of that.
I'm guessing based on Pic below,
A229 is the 'Box number'
61288 is the number on the submission form,
5 is number of coins in submission.
~HABE FIDUCIAM IN DOMINO III V VI / III XVI~ POST NUBILA PHOEBUS / AFTER CLOUDS, SUN Love for Music / Collector of Dreck
@BUFFNIXX said:
Mr. Salzburg said that other services had been allowed in the NGC registry. Was there any other service other than
PCGS? Anacs? ICG?? NNC????
Only PCGS until the end of 2016. Now it's NGC graded coins only.
Not to my knowledge Bill... If there was, it was a well guarded secret.
My Registry Sets over at NGC are (well, WERE) exclusively populated with PCGS-graded coins -- and I actually was awarded a number of NGC Registry awards!!
My concern with all the submissions I have made to PCGS for reconsideration of OGH Morgans is what grader do I get today. I have submitted maybe 100 ms65 OGH that I have hand picked as the best I could find. For several years I had in my opinion very satisfactory success with over 50% of the coins I submitted upgraded to ms66. Then suddenly this spring something changed and I guess it must have been me in choosing coins to submit. Of the last 30 coins I submitted, only one was upgraded. I was amazed and totally frustrated with PCGS. I went back and studied coins of mine that PCGS upgraded to ms66 and then compared to ones I submitted recently. I could not believe that the coins that were upgraded and comparing to my latest submission only one was upgraded. Then I studied ms66 coins on eBay that have quality photos and again, that is an ms66? So my comment is unfortunately coin grading is by humans and not all grade the same. Some are more strict than others and eye appeal is subject to the grader. I was totally blown away with their grading lately. I even submitted some coins for any upgrade hoping for a plus, however, even that was disappointing. I see way too much variation in grading of coins with the same grade. So I have totally given up on any submissions to PCGS or any other third party grading company and strictly staying with the old saying buy the coin, not the label and staying with that label. Buy a coin and hold it and be happy with what you have.
@DonWillis said:
PCGS is the world’s leading grading service for many reasons, most importantly because we operate with a level of transparency and objectivity that is unmatched in the industry. PCGS has always been and will continue to be the most effective Consumer Protection advocate in the coin market.
PCGS is also a tough competitor. We set the standard for third party grading 30 years ago. Every other grading service has attempted to copy that standard and has been playing a game of catch up for all these years. Mark Salzberg, Chairman of NGC, recently published an open letter wherein he attempted to smear PCGS and strike fear in the hearts of collectors.
In regards to increasing populations, first of all we confess to being the most popular grading service. We process many more Vintage coins than NGC. Secondly, populations rarely go down. There are always hidden collections, accumulations or hoards that come out. As Mr. Salzberg probably knows but failed to mention, there have been several original rolls of 1912-S 5c that have come to the market in the past few years. In 2016 PCGS handled at least 2 fresh rolls of gem 1912-S 5c. These rolls were handled by some of the most knowledgeable dealers in the business. We are proud of the fact that these individuals, who have great insight in to the coin market, chose PCGS to grade their coins.
Another phenomena contributing to increased PCGS populations is our crossover service. Many collectors and dealers who own coins graded by other grading services attempt to cross their coins into PCGS holders. As a matter of fact many dealers deliberately buy NGC coins and cross them to PCGS at a lower grade, subsequently selling them at a profit. Simply look at many of the coins sold in the recent Newman and Partrick auctions by Heritage and you can see for yourself how many have already been crossed over.
PCGS graders have over 250 years of experience. All of our grading is done through a sophisticated grading system which reflects this knowledge and was developed over 30 years of operational experience. The market’s confidence in PCGS graded coins is greater than ever. As we recently reported all of the top 20 coins sold in auction during 2016 were graded by PCGS. As we have also reported, over 80% of all CAC coins sold in recent auctions were PCGS coins. CAC is a respected independent organization with no ties to PCGS yet based on public information 4 out of 5 coins they approve have been graded by PCGS.
We can assure every collector and dealer around the world that PCGS has always been, and always will be, committed to providing the most accurate and impartial grading in the market.
Sincerely,
Don Willis
@DonWillis said:
PCGS is the world’s leading grading service for many reasons, most importantly because we operate with a level of transparency and objectivity that is unmatched in the industry. PCGS has always been and will continue to be the most effective Consumer Protection advocate in the coin market.
PCGS is also a tough competitor. We set the standard for third party grading 30 years ago. Every other grading service has attempted to copy that standard and has been playing a game of catch up for all these years. Mark Salzberg, Chairman of NGC, recently published an open letter wherein he attempted to smear PCGS and strike fear in the hearts of collectors.
In regards to increasing populations, first of all we confess to being the most popular grading service. We process many more Vintage coins than NGC. Secondly, populations rarely go down. There are always hidden collections, accumulations or hoards that come out. As Mr. Salzberg probably knows but failed to mention, there have been several original rolls of 1912-S 5c that have come to the market in the past few years. In 2016 PCGS handled at least 2 fresh rolls of gem 1912-S 5c. These rolls were handled by some of the most knowledgeable dealers in the business. We are proud of the fact that these individuals, who have great insight in to the coin market, chose PCGS to grade their coins.
Another phenomena contributing to increased PCGS populations is our crossover service. Many collectors and dealers who own coins graded by other grading services attempt to cross their coins into PCGS holders. As a matter of fact many dealers deliberately buy NGC coins and cross them to PCGS at a lower grade, subsequently selling them at a profit. Simply look at many of the coins sold in the recent Newman and Partrick auctions by Heritage and you can see for yourself how many have already been crossed over.
PCGS graders have over 250 years of experience. All of our grading is done through a sophisticated grading system which reflects this knowledge and was developed over 30 years of operational experience. The market’s confidence in PCGS graded coins is greater than ever. As we recently reported all of the top 20 coins sold in auction during 2016 were graded by PCGS. As we have also reported, over 80% of all CAC coins sold in recent auctions were PCGS coins. CAC is a respected independent organization with no ties to PCGS yet based on public information 4 out of 5 coins they approve have been graded by PCGS.
We can assure every collector and dealer around the world that PCGS has always been, and always will be, committed to providing the most accurate and impartial grading in the market.
Sincerely,
Don Willis
Thanks. Would like to see NGC’s response.
There is something called ‘the suppressed correlative fallacy.’ If there is a diatribe against another entity, then should not the other entity be evaluated? One commiting or subscribing to such has no contrast that allows for understanding. If all one knows is light, then how can darkness be understood? How then can darkness be understood?
That being said, I’d like to hear a response from NGC.
I like to collect coins. The history intigues me. I wonder, as I hold an 1858 penny, who held it and what they did with it.
Finding or even just seeing an original roll of '12-S 5c-what a thrill that must have been! Same for the S-VDB! That said, I much prefer PCGS to the "other guys". Always have; always will.
If you do not like the grade you get from PCGS u can just crack it out and try again or send to NGC. I cherrypicked some proof buffalo nickels off of eBay in 2014, 2015, and 2016 (1913 type one, 1913 type 2, 1915, 1916, and 1936 satin finish). I was really on a roll THEN I GOT MY GRADES BACK FROM PCGS!! Could not believe how “conservative” the grades were.
Hi ho, Hi ho, accesso the street they go!
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
It seems to me that if you can pick the grade you want, the grade does not mean a dang thing!
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@Paradisefound said:
This resurrected old thread entertained as well as educated me as a new collector.
Totally!!!
I agree as well only it didn’t reassure me; it reminded me of 15-20 years ago of the PCGS vs NGC debate, when it felt like the companies were more like adversaries than competitors.
All I’m looking for is fairness. I just submitted 10 NGC slabbed coins for crossover and only 3 crossed. I can’t imagine my understanding of coin grades is that far out of whack, especially when it comes to what I submitted. I am not a dealer looking to make a profit; I wanted to cross them frankly because I do favor PCGS but mostly because most of my slabs are PCGS, it’s a matter of convenience for storage and I don’t like the look of the NGC slab or their slab storage boxes.
I can’t see the details of why they didn’t cross until I get them back but has NGC slipped so far in the last decade, PCGS standard gone up or is “a bad time for collectors yet again?”
In the original post although the PCGS standard was “justified” I couldn’t help but feel like I was being read the riot act in a sense
Comments
My YouTube Channel
About a year under my belt of coin collecting, at that stage where all I think about is coins and if I read anything it's about coins. I'm 100% positive I know enough to be 100% dangerous.
With this battle royale between NGC and PCGS over the past couple of months, it shows the world that we coin collectors aren't boring.
PCGS or NGC grades, I'm sure most are spot on and some off a bit,
But PCGS has taken the lead in providing collectors incredible resources and bringing coin collecting into the Internet age.
As a new collector I have found no resources come close to those available from PCGS (website, phone apps and YouTube videos ( on grading, pop, prices and history)).
PCGS has kept me very busy and helped my coin knowledge and enjoyment of the hobby grow.
I can't thank you and the entire PCGS staff and member base enough for what you have done for new and seasoned collectors in just a few clicks. Nothing comes close.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
H> @georgiacop50 said:
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Don,
Can you clarify? Is all the grading done in-house, or is some, such as some Modern farmed out to graders not in-house? I've heard some is farmed out...is that true? Or, is ALL GRADING done in-house?
http://www.coinweek.com/opinion/opinion-the-pcgs-and-ngc-dust-up-shows-market-realities/
was there ever a response to the response that someone could link me to??
Mr. Salzburg said that other services had been allowed in the NGC registry. Was there any other service other than
PCGS? Anacs? ICG?? NNC????
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
I have seen coins in both ngc and pcgs holders that were spot on graded, and also some that were so badly misgraded it looked like the graders had taken the day off!! (not many but a few) There was that 1913 type one buffalo graded ms65 that looked like a 61 and
there was ........
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Only PCGS until the end of 2016. Now it's NGC graded coins only.
Not to my knowledge Bill... If there was, it was a well guarded secret.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
agreed enough> @coinkat said:
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
Are PCGS graded cleaned coins allowed in registry sets?
Where's my pop corn?
100% Positive BST transactions
Tell it how it is Mr. Willis! Right on!
If I had a coin conserved by PCGS, and it's showing spots and streaking again after 4 years (I'd stored it in an Intercept Shield in air-conditioned comfort) , is there any recourse?
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Does PCGS still slab coins with a "genuine" label only?
I have a coin that I know is whizzed or altered surfaces but I want to get it into plastic. Or will it just get body bagged?
They have a box you can check on the form if you DON'T want a "genuine" coin holdered. If you do want them to put your coin in a genuine holder, simply do NOT check that box and they will holder it.
https://thepennylady.com/
Don baby, you're forgetting the best part of why PCGS is head & tails above NGC, the capsulation of NGC coins is Horrid, plain & simple + PCGS knows how to make a coin look Spectacular. I can't stand my NGC coins, I want to walk into my bathroom and sucker punch myself for buying more After I bought the 1st one. Eh, lesson learned...
Abandon All Hope-Ye Who Enters Here...Dante Alighieri
No question about our hosts reputation. top notch.
So why is it that quit a few large dealers and auction houses send their stuff to NGC?
Will not use names here , but I am sure you are all aware of who they are.
and, question # 2:
why are Canadian coins and world coins priced differently for grading?
a coin is a coin is a coin and the same criteria applies for grading.
above 2 questions have been hiding in my few brain cells for some time now.
does anyone have definite answers ?
thanks
Both companies are stronger in some areas than other. Subjectively they like or dislike different things such as toning.
World coins are more expensive to grade because it's a much bigger subject and fewer experts
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Rattler Storage Box Label,
Picked up this box, can anyone provide info about numbers, meaning?
POST NUBILA PHOEBUS / AFTER CLOUDS, SUN
Love for Music / Collector of Dreck
Very
I don't know but this is my GUESS.
What is absolutely needed for a box to ID it?
Therefore:
Red label = Tier of service
5 = #of coins
61288 = customer #
A229 = ? Perhaps what the grader is having for lunch today? The importance of the dealer (A, B, C,) and # of previous submissions. NO! I'll bet it is the due date! No, there would be no need to code the dates as everyone should see that info. Only the submitter should be a secret.
How did I do?
Red label = Tier of service, didn't think of that.
I'm guessing based on Pic below,
A229 is the 'Box number'
61288 is the number on the submission form,
5 is number of coins in submission.
POST NUBILA PHOEBUS / AFTER CLOUDS, SUN
Love for Music / Collector of Dreck
My Registry Sets over at NGC are (well, WERE) exclusively populated with PCGS-graded coins -- and I actually was awarded a number of NGC Registry awards!!
Good one! That was a rather "in your face" dissertation.
Pete
My concern with all the submissions I have made to PCGS for reconsideration of OGH Morgans is what grader do I get today. I have submitted maybe 100 ms65 OGH that I have hand picked as the best I could find. For several years I had in my opinion very satisfactory success with over 50% of the coins I submitted upgraded to ms66. Then suddenly this spring something changed and I guess it must have been me in choosing coins to submit. Of the last 30 coins I submitted, only one was upgraded. I was amazed and totally frustrated with PCGS. I went back and studied coins of mine that PCGS upgraded to ms66 and then compared to ones I submitted recently. I could not believe that the coins that were upgraded and comparing to my latest submission only one was upgraded. Then I studied ms66 coins on eBay that have quality photos and again, that is an ms66? So my comment is unfortunately coin grading is by humans and not all grade the same. Some are more strict than others and eye appeal is subject to the grader. I was totally blown away with their grading lately. I even submitted some coins for any upgrade hoping for a plus, however, even that was disappointing. I see way too much variation in grading of coins with the same grade. So I have totally given up on any submissions to PCGS or any other third party grading company and strictly staying with the old saying buy the coin, not the label and staying with that label. Buy a coin and hold it and be happy with what you have.
Thanks. Would like to see NGC’s response.
There is something called ‘the suppressed correlative fallacy.’ If there is a diatribe against another entity, then should not the other entity be evaluated? One commiting or subscribing to such has no contrast that allows for understanding. If all one knows is light, then how can darkness be understood? How then can darkness be understood?
That being said, I’d like to hear a response from NGC.
This resurrected old thread entertained as well as educated me as a new collector.
Finding or even just seeing an original roll of '12-S 5c-what a thrill that must have been! Same for the S-VDB! That said, I much prefer PCGS to the "other guys". Always have; always will.
If you do not like the grade you get from PCGS u can just crack it out and try again or send to NGC. I cherrypicked some proof buffalo nickels off of eBay in 2014, 2015, and 2016 (1913 type one, 1913 type 2, 1915, 1916, and 1936 satin finish). I was really on a roll THEN I GOT MY GRADES BACK FROM PCGS!! Could not believe how “conservative” the grades were.
Hi ho, Hi ho, accesso the street they go!
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
It seems to me that if you can pick the grade you want, the grade does not mean a dang thing!
If you only purchase one TPG's coins, your selling your collection short.
Totally!!!
I agree as well only it didn’t reassure me; it reminded me of 15-20 years ago of the PCGS vs NGC debate, when it felt like the companies were more like adversaries than competitors.
All I’m looking for is fairness. I just submitted 10 NGC slabbed coins for crossover and only 3 crossed. I can’t imagine my understanding of coin grades is that far out of whack, especially when it comes to what I submitted. I am not a dealer looking to make a profit; I wanted to cross them frankly because I do favor PCGS but mostly because most of my slabs are PCGS, it’s a matter of convenience for storage and I don’t like the look of the NGC slab or their slab storage boxes.
I can’t see the details of why they didn’t cross until I get them back but has NGC slipped so far in the last decade, PCGS standard gone up or is “a bad time for collectors yet again?”
In the original post although the PCGS standard was “justified” I couldn’t help but feel like I was being read the riot act in a sense