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PCGS Grading

DonWillisDonWillis Posts: 962 ✭✭✭
edited October 25, 2018 4:49PM in U.S. Coin Forum

PCGS is the world’s leading grading service for many reasons, most importantly because we operate with a level of transparency and objectivity that is unmatched in the industry. PCGS has always been and will continue to be the most effective Consumer Protection advocate in the coin market.

PCGS is also a tough competitor. We set the standard for third party grading 30 years ago. Every other grading service has attempted to copy that standard and has been playing a game of catch up for all these years. Mark Salzberg, Chairman of NGC, recently published an open letter wherein he attempted to smear PCGS and strike fear in the hearts of collectors.

In regards to increasing populations, first of all we confess to being the most popular grading service. We process many more Vintage coins than NGC. Secondly, populations rarely go down. There are always hidden collections, accumulations or hoards that come out. As Mr. Salzberg probably knows but failed to mention, there have been several original rolls of 1912-S 5c that have come to the market in the past few years. In 2016 PCGS handled at least 2 fresh rolls of gem 1912-S 5c. These rolls were handled by some of the most knowledgeable dealers in the business. We are proud of the fact that these individuals, who have great insight in to the coin market, chose PCGS to grade their coins.

Another phenomena contributing to increased PCGS populations is our crossover service. Many collectors and dealers who own coins graded by other grading services attempt to cross their coins into PCGS holders. As a matter of fact many dealers deliberately buy NGC coins and cross them to PCGS at a lower grade, subsequently selling them at a profit. Simply look at many of the coins sold in the recent Newman and Partrick auctions by Heritage and you can see for yourself how many have already been crossed over.

PCGS graders have over 250 years of experience. All of our grading is done through a sophisticated grading system which reflects this knowledge and was developed over 30 years of operational experience. The market’s confidence in PCGS graded coins is greater than ever. As we recently reported all of the top 20 coins sold in auction during 2016 were graded by PCGS. As we have also reported, over 80% of all CAC coins sold in recent auctions were PCGS coins. CAC is a respected independent organization with no ties to PCGS yet based on public information 4 out of 5 coins they approve have been graded by PCGS.

We can assure every collector and dealer around the world that PCGS has always been, and always will be, committed to providing the most accurate and impartial grading in the market.

Sincerely,

Don Willis

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Comments

  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 16,589 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I figured there was another side to the 12-S Nickel story.

  • HandHHandH Posts: 438 ✭✭✭

    Kudos to PCGS.

    US Civil War coinage
    Historical Medals

  • PTVETTERPTVETTER Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As I have posted in a different thread.
    New coins enter a grading system every year!

    Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211


  • logger7logger7 Posts: 4,699 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Hoards like the 1912-s ones are rare in high grade; there must be a very interesting story behind that but those involved have full privacy rights. It looks like someone misinterpreted those getting graded as something else. You wonder what "experts" would have thought had the Saddle Ridge coins been graded under covers; "...there is another proof of inflation".

  • Type2Type2 Posts: 12,820 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thank you Don for letting us know that we have nothing to 2nd guess about PCGS, I think most of us here fill the same way and make good $$$ doing what you say. Now is there anyway we can get are name on the holders? Crazy Type2 just asking..



    Hoard the keys.
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,756 ✭✭✭

    Since I can no longer travel to major coin shows, I only bid on PCGS CAC coins. For me, NGC is not a consideration, and my coins in the NGC Retgistry are almost all PCGS graded. What else can I say?

    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 19,595 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ah the high road. The road less traveled. Nice

    mark

    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • CameonutCameonut Posts: 6,388 ✭✭✭✭✭

    well said Don. There is always another side to a story.

    In my area of collecting, I would simply point out to Mr. Salzberg that NGC got a bad reputation when they overgraded quite a number of cameo proofs about 10-15 years ago - both technical grade and frost level. At that point I decided to focus on PCGS examples for my set (although I will still look at NGC pieces to cross). Of all people, he should keep quiet on gradeflation.

    For cameos, it is my opinion that PCGS standards for cameo and deep cameo are stricter than NGC's for cameo and ultracameo. This is one of the reasons why PCGS commands higher prices. So NGC is practicing "frost flation" - but no mention of that.

    I look forward to reading more commentary from both sides of the street.

    “In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson

    My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!

  • rickoricko Posts: 72,551 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thank you Don... this is very welcome in light of a recent communique that you mentioned. Having spent years in business, I am not unfamiliar with such tactics, however, normally, when applied, they are better researched.
    This response is well measured and will hopefully end the matter. Cheers, RickO

  • UtahCoinUtahCoin Posts: 5,280 ✭✭✭✭

    Very well said Don.

    I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector.
    Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5 for $260. And again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902 for $27!
  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 9,008 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice response on PCGS's part.

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_



    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70,...



    PCGS DANSCO 7070 Modified Set
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/alltimeset/142105
  • DatentypeDatentype Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭

    @Cameonut said:
    well said Don. There is always another side to a story.

    In my area of collecting, I would simply point out to Mr. Salzberg that NGC got a bad reputation when they overgraded quite a number of cameo proofs about 10-15 years ago - both technical grade and frost level. At that point I decided to focus on PCGS examples for my set (although I will still look at NGC pieces to cross). Of all people, he should keep quiet on gradeflation.

    For cameos, it is my opinion that PCGS standards for cameo and deep cameo are stricter than NGC's for cameo and ultracameo. This is one of the reasons why PCGS commands higher prices. So NGC is practicing "frost flation" - but no mention of that.

    I look forward to reading more commentary from both sides of the street.

    Stricter on cameo? I completely disagree from the coins I send back and forth it is quite the opposite at least for the past 5 years or so.

  • dbtunrdbtunr Posts: 620 ✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2017 7:53AM

    I did not know the 4:1 CAC ratio. Very interesting to hear that and this is new information to absorb. Nice response.

    Edit: actually thinking about this more, I should have actually known this. I have been saying for a while that PCGS does more Vintage than NGC in about a 70:30 ratio. CAC only does Vintage coins. The 4:1 ratio quoted by Willis just brings the totals to 80:20.

  • TopographicOceansTopographicOceans Posts: 6,545 ✭✭✭✭

    Fresh pristine rolls can enter the market and boost populations. I guess NGC is upset that the owners were smart and submitted them to PCGS instead of NGC.
    PCGS has always been the #1 grading service and I don't see that ever changing.

  • LanLordLanLord Posts: 11,562 ✭✭✭✭

    Wow, it's pretty pathetic that Mark S. would choose a 105 year old coin in which there have been two entire rolls come to surface recently, use that coins population increase as his evidence and never mention the newly surfacing coins.

    Sort of dilutes him and his opinions to say the least.

  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 21,885 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I remember seeing a fresh roll of 09svdb's come through grading at the PCGS Las Vegas show a couple of years ago. 2 1/2 boxes of GEM and Superb GEM coins that just blew me away including several 67's. The dealer was getting them graded for a client....fresh rolls are out there (I just never see them!)
    bob:)

    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), [email protected]
  • I find it interesting that Mr. Salzberg chose to show a comparison for the 1995-W Silver Eagle in 70DCAM. If higher populations are intrinsically linked to gradeflation, as he suggests with the PCGS Population going from 8 to 171, what does it mean when you compare that to NGC's Pop of 430?

    In his illustration, he shows the price of the PCGS 70DCAM dropped to $18,800 as of 1/5/2017, but he chose not to report that on 1/9/2017 two NGC 70UCAMs sold for under $13K each!

  • dpooledpoole Posts: 5,445 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Largely preaching to the choir here, Don.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 21,142 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @EagleEye said:
    I recall back when it was determined that grading $5 and $2-1/2 Indian gold were being wrongly done. In the past the fields were considered a strong grading factor. Then it was successfully argued that the fields are part of the rim and not so consequential. Thousands of AU55 and AU58 coins were regraded as MS61 and MS62. This was not a detrimental grading inflation, but a reassessment of what should be given more weight in the grading room.

    Very interesting. About when did this happen?

  • originalisbestoriginalisbest Posts: 5,648 ✭✭✭✭

    Preaching to the choir, but a very nicely worded reply, reasonable and even-handed. Also nice of Don to lay out the fact for all to see that at least two original, gemmy rolls of '12-S nickels passed through PCGS in 2016. One particular poster in sleepy hollow was peeved that his coin firm had '12-S price decreases hit his pocketbook; his complaint lies not with PCGS, but with "random chance", the "breaks" and other platitudes, same as those who might have paid big $$$ for 1903-O dollars prior to the release of the treasury hoards in the '60s.

  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 15,670 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Regarding the 95-W coins, I posted this back on page 2 of the other thread ...

    One forgets that prior to the "$86k" sale of 95-W, a 95-W coin (with even a lower PCGS population at the time) sold for around $20k, give or take, at Stacks. So, now, years later with the pop sharply higher in PR70DC the 95-W is selling for about just 5%-10% less than the Stacks sales price when the pop was just 5 or 6 or 7 (someone can look it up). The fact that collectors started paying 2x and 3x and 4x the Stacks public auction price - it made no sense to me then and makes no sense to me now. I just ask myself why I kept my PR70DC 95-W coin in my personal collection the whole time instead of just selling it for $40k or $50k and rebuying one for $20k later! Me - bad. I have tried to teach my son to STOP BEING A COLLECTOR like his old man.

    As far as the pop having stayed at 1 or 2 for many years on the 95-W - remember PCGS had stopped grading PR70DC Silver Eagles (and MS70's for that matter) for quite a while there for a number of reasons, including in the later years trying to figure out why the coins were spotting in the holder.

    Conclusion - it's "complicated" when it comes to analyzing the 95-W and its price history. To be honest, I could have written 2 or 3 more pages on just this one coin, but you get the idea.

    As always, just my two cents.

    Wondercoin

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • rainbowlover1rainbowlover1 Posts: 402 ✭✭✭

    Well said :)

    • Rainbowlover1
  • oldgoldloveroldgoldlover Posts: 429 ✭✭✭

    NGC got themselves into a mess by less stringent grading standards. In my opinion many dealers use NGC to get a higher grade and in theory a higher price for coins. The collecting community caught on and the situation is now what it is. I still contend the way the market prices coins for what they are and not just what the holder says. Market share cannot be bought for the long term. I can't say I always agree with either TPG but my collection is PCGS graded to keep what few coins I have as consistent as possible in terms of grade and TPG and I have no regrets or plans to change. In fact I was working with a large dealer that had a rare coin that was a NGC graded AU 53. I told them if they would cross it over to PCGS at the same grade we had a deal. I never bought the coin as it would not get a AU 53 grade from PCGS. I was not too surprised.

  • CascadeChrisCascadeChris Posts: 2,495 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @FadeToBlack said:
    I've been consistently disappointed with NGC's grading on Morgans. I've never submitted anything outside of GSA's to NGC, but on already-graded material I have purchased, NGC coins rarely measure up to their PCGS counterparts, and frankly, I'm at the point where I avoid NGC-graded Morgans that aren't CAC'ed.

    Well said on all counts. I don't even send NGC coins to CAC anymore unless I know it will bean which isn't too often and I would usually cross it to PCGS instead anyway. However I do wish PCGS would start ribbon grading the hard pack GSA's. That would really be another little stick to the side of NGC. The main reason we all send GSA's to NGC is that they still fit in the box once graded.

    The Blind VAMmer
  • Danye WestDanye West Posts: 194 ✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2017 1:33AM

    YES PLEASE HAVE A RAP BATTLE

    I could make a birth year registry set out of pocket change.
  • ashelandasheland Posts: 15,145 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Good response.

  • nencoinnencoin Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭

    @FadeToBlack said:
    Also, I had to steal this from Reddit to share with you guys;

    The only answer is a FREESTYLE NUMISMATIC RAP BATTLE. KICK IT!
    Hey its your boy Markman Salzbang here to warn you about something shady goin down at PCGS. Check it.
    Let me show you.
    Yo imma tell you bout a perplexin trend.
    PCGS aint the best in the business, friend.
    Maybe 30 years ago they knew their MSs
    but now top pop's wack and their standards distress us
    You know at NCG yo our grading is tight.
    Don't think we aint G's caus our holders are white!
    Ooohhhhhhhh (hands mic over politely)
    Hey yo. My turn. Hands up fo Don Wizzle. Imma post it.
    I confess.
    We impress.
    PC-GS
    Drop the rest
    Not my fault you didn't know about the 1912-S.
    Our grading service
    supersonic
    people chronic bout submittin
    we sittin
    on such a hoard
    auction results can't be ignored.
    You know we got that CAC
    why would NGC attack?
    simple whiny grading service smokin crossover crack
    Oh Sorry! Did that Hurt much?
    You can bill us.
    Sincerely, Don Willis.

    https://reddit.com/r/coins/comments/5oz2ev/pcgs_response_to_ngcs_accusation/dcnk3m7/

    This is funny! It ranks up there awfully close with the Hitler video spoof.

  • NicNic Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭✭

    That actually sounds like Don.

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 19,478 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2017 5:28PM

    There are some misconceptions associated with TPG. And it seems that there are collectors that seem to hold them accountable for things they have no control over. Such things would obviously include the unknown and possible existing population of coins yet to be graded; the competitive nature of collectors to bid up and pay for certain coins at various states of preservation; and the cyclical nature that drives the coin market.

    Using the 1969-D Lincoln in 67 red as an example since it was used elsewhere as such an example to illustrate grade inflation based on the initial condition rarity, the increase in population at the 67 level and the price that declined from over $7,000 in 2010 to where it is valued today. Seems to me that there are some easy explanations for what happened... The surviving population for this date in bags, rolls and even mint sets is likely substantial. So the law of averages would support that if hand selected examples viewed by submitters as a candidate for a 67 grade, some will hit and get the grade. So this is not grade inflation, this is the result of a coin that was bid up that made submissions economically viable to obtain a windfall. The price was artificially high and not sustainable given the probability of all the factors associated with the surviving population. So let's not blame TPG for grade inflation, market drops and the general volume of coins yet to be graded.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • 123cents123cents Posts: 7,245 ✭✭✭

    Hands down, PCGS is the best grading service.

    image
  • TONEDDOLLARSTONEDDOLLARS Posts: 2,873 ✭✭✭✭

    @CascadeChris said:

    @FadeToBlack said:
    I've been consistently disappointed with NGC's grading on Morgans. I've never submitted anything outside of GSA's to NGC, but on already-graded material I have purchased, NGC coins rarely measure up to their PCGS counterparts, and frankly, I'm at the point where I avoid NGC-graded Morgans that aren't CAC'ed.

    Well said on all counts. I don't even send NGC coins to CAC anymore unless I know it will bean which isn't too often and I would usually cross it to PCGS instead anyway. However I do wish PCGS would start ribbon grading the hard pack GSA's. That would really be another little stick to the side of NGC. The main reason we all send GSA's to NGC is that they still fit in the box once graded.

    NGC graded GSA's sell for more money in the same grade than PCGS ones do

  • jdimmickjdimmick Posts: 8,522 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree with the GSA assessment above, spoken first hand from a fellow board member who specializes in these, told me the same thing!

  • TONEDDOLLARSTONEDDOLLARS Posts: 2,873 ✭✭✭✭

    75% of my GSA's have the green bean 93 of 124. Just sayin.

  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 16,589 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TONEDDOLLARS said:

    @CascadeChris said:

    @FadeToBlack said:
    I've been consistently disappointed with NGC's grading on Morgans. I've never submitted anything outside of GSA's to NGC, but on already-graded material I have purchased, NGC coins rarely measure up to their PCGS counterparts, and frankly, I'm at the point where I avoid NGC-graded Morgans that aren't CAC'ed.

    Well said on all counts. I don't even send NGC coins to CAC anymore unless I know it will bean which isn't too often and I would usually cross it to PCGS instead anyway. However I do wish PCGS would start ribbon grading the hard pack GSA's. That would really be another little stick to the side of NGC. The main reason we all send GSA's to NGC is that they still fit in the box once graded.

    NGC graded GSA's sell for more money in the same grade than PCGS ones do

    How much of this is due to the PCGS überslab not fitting with original packaging and thus being a difficult sell?

  • TONEDDOLLARSTONEDDOLLARS Posts: 2,873 ✭✭✭✭

    Most serious GSA collectors that I talk with feel that PCGS grading is more liberal than NGC and the auction prices reflect this. For me I agree with that, but if I find one that I think is graded correctly I buy it and cross it to get it out of the tomb PCGS puts it in. I want mine to fit in the original box.not looking to piss anyone off just stating my collecting preferences

  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 7,036 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I suspect NGC has a patent or whatever on their method of grading GSA's. SEGS had a patent on labeling the top of the slab. Had a big battle with ANACS when they started doing it. ANACS prevailed because they changed the design of the top of their holder(That's also what made it a piece a Sh*t holder too!)

    @CascadeChris said:

    @FadeToBlack said:
    I've been consistently disappointed with NGC's grading on Morgans. I've never submitted anything outside of GSA's to NGC, but on already-graded material I have purchased, NGC coins rarely measure up to their PCGS counterparts, and frankly, I'm at the point where I avoid NGC-graded Morgans that aren't CAC'ed.

    Well said on all counts. I don't even send NGC coins to CAC anymore unless I know it will bean which isn't too often and I would usually cross it to PCGS instead anyway. However I do wish PCGS would start ribbon grading the hard pack GSA's. That would really be another little stick to the side of NGC. The main reason we all send GSA's to NGC is that they still fit in the box once graded.

  • youniqueyounique Posts: 647 ✭✭✭

    Lets look at this from another perspective. PCGS upholds their integrity extremely well by virtue of their providing fair, honest services for ALL their customers. Just saying they do not provide inadequate grades to protect holders of "top pops."

    Thank you Don and staff for all your hard work!

    P.S. Hoping to one day have my own label.

  • SoCalBigMarkSoCalBigMark Posts: 2,264 ✭✭✭✭

    Dude.

  • RB1026RB1026 Posts: 1,370 ✭✭✭

    PCGS is the industry leader and everyone knows it. The recent actions of NGC only serve to reinforce this fact. Thank you Don for your statement. The market prefers PCGS to the other TPG's and so do I ;)

    Roger W. Buenger, Author - About My Books
  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 21,996 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Wabbit2313 said:
    PCGS FINALIZER:

    NGC FINALIZER:

    I had wondered what Stevie Wonder was doing now days.

    Canadian Dimes Set
    Seated Dimes Fortin Top 100
    RIP image Rebecca 2004-2018...If love could have saved you - you would have lived forever
  • desslokdesslok Posts: 291 ✭✭✭

    Very well said. I don't think PCGS should be worried about NGC's open letter.

  • TONEDDOLLARSTONEDDOLLARS Posts: 2,873 ✭✭✭✭

    @georgiacop50 said:
    Serious Kool-aide....you all should be ashamed!

    +1 Competition is good even PCGS would admit that.

This discussion has been closed.