PayPal claim, what to do next? *Resolved* Update in OP.
MorganMan94
Posts: 1,330 ✭✭✭✭✭
So two weeks ago I sold an odd-weight silver bar weighing a little over 100oz through regular PayPal. I shipped it the next day via USPS priority mail (medium box) with signature confirmation. I didn't do insurance as the buyer didn't pay additional for or request registered mail since USPS does not insure silver under the standard insurance option. Anyways the buyer contacts me after it has been delivered and he had signed for it that there was a wheel in the box! He opened a case with PayPal saying that, am I covered? I have tracking uploaded which shows delivered and signed for by the individual. I don't have the receipt with me as I am not at home this week but will that have the weight of the package when shipped? I am really worried as that is a lot of money to have tied up.
9/21 Update: PayPal closed the case in my favor. When I called them they asked him for additional information (I don't know what addition information) but he never got back to them. I haven't heard from him since the day it got delivered.
Comments
How long have you been with paypal and do you have a stellar record with them?
How long has your buyer been with paypal?
I have no idea how long the buyer has been with PayPal, I have been with PayPal since late 2010.
You need to call Paypal ASAP. Move up the chain to a supervisor.
I called PayPal before he opened a claim (expecting him to) but it took him a week from receiving it to open a claim. I only talked to the first person I was connected to so not a supervisor but he assured me if it said delivered and he signed for it I would be covered. I am not feeling too confident about that since he opened it as not as described. I will be calling PayPal when I get off work tonight.
Paypal has excellent coverage. If they told you that you are covered, I would take that to the bank. Still call a supervisor tho, be proactive.
Well the transaction is complete when the person signed for the package as far as the USPS is concerned. Reg mail has to be brown taped and signed for by a carrier at every stop. I would contact the local Post office that delivered the package, ask them to ask the carrier if there was any signs of the package being open when it was delivered or when it was picked up by the individual. Document the findings and submit to Paypal.. My guess is that the package was intact and thus the individual may not be telling the truth.
He sent it Priority mail instead of Registered. Not sure if that makes a difference with PayPal.
Successful BST transactions with lordmarcovan, Moldnut, erwindoc
Was this through eBay, or some other platform? How did buyer and you meet for transaction?
I might get blasted for this but through EBay outside of EBay.
It shouldn't matter. So it becomes a he said she said issue. Hopefully the carrier will remember if the package had been "repaired". If it was tampered with the USPS should have flagged it BEFORE delivering it. I expect the receiver has a "wheel" that weighs about 100 ounces. I expect that neither party can "prove" content. Caught between a rock and a hard spot I'm afeerd. Hopefully the recipient has a track record that will work against him.
I think that SNAD matters only in eBay transactions/sales. PP should demand more proof than one's say so.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
Does not matter where you sold it, PayPal was your banker and if they say you have seller protection, then you should be good.
If there are any questions of doubt as to what was mailed, the weight of the package when shipped on the Post Office mailing receipt will be your proof. It's possible that PayPal might insist that the buyer weigh his package with the alleged "wheel" in it and if there are any disparities between your receipt in weight, this issue might be turned over to the Postal Inspector for handling.
Postal matter you did send it so your good. Did you document with pictures during the packing stage. You did your duty once he receives package and even if empty box its a Insurance matter or inter postal theft. Your out of the loop BUT GIVE ALL INFORMATION TO PAYPAL. Especially if you have pictures. I lost a case once package was empty BUT IT SHOWED DELIVERED. Either he is Lying or the Postal office have a thief among themself. IMO of couse.
Good advice. Paypal will most likely back you up as you go back several years with them.
Unless it was paid as a "gift" then you might hit a snag.
I was the seller not the buyer, and it was goods and services.
Then you should be ok.
This is one of the reasons I will not ship priority with high priced items, only registered with insurance.
I even get nervous when the clerk does not stamp my registered mail package in front of me and always request that they do it before I leave.
Unstamped they can get in the package reseal and than stamp it.
I hope it works out for you. But you have either a dishonest buyer or dishonest postal employee.
Box of 20
I trust your version of events, but also think of it from the buyer's perspective....
If they are telling the truth, then they got ripped off. Where is THEIR recourse?
(If they are lying then they are the scum of the earth).
I lean towards the idea that all high value shipments should be registered and/or insured. The buyer should not even be given the option of declining the coverage unless they clearly absolve the seller of any responsibility.
Outside of ebay transactions would lead me to believe your buyer could be dishonest. Two negative aspects of this transaction against the buyer is
Big coincidence that a postal employee decided to target your package on this particular transaction. What are the odds?
You had no insurance on the package, so it would not stick out as a valuable item to steal by USPS.
Of course, I could be wrong and you have a dishonest postal employee.
You do have his name and address. so that helps if you need to investigate further.
Box of 20
I assume they contacted you to do the deal outside of ebay? That would be a pretty big red flag if so and I'm guessing paypal would see it that way too.
How well did the bar fit in the box? If it was relatively snug it would be very difficult to find anything that would be able to match the original package weight given the density of silver. Lead would work, but a wheel? I guess it was a big box then..
Not sure if it's right to ask, but what is their ebay ID? Perhaps others have been contacted to do outside of ebay transactions by them.
Hope it works out for you.
Collector, occasional seller
You are now paying the price for trying to avoid eBay fees. Even if you get your money back you will still have had to deal with a very unpleasant situation that grinds time and generates agrivation.
So you sold this OUTSIDE of EBAY correct? Did he contact you? Or did you contact him to go outside of Ebay? Either way I NEVER go OUTSIDE of EBAY. If he contact you then he set you up. If you did go OUSIDE of Ebay its a Pay Pal / US Postal matter. Do NOT Pay him back. Infact I would not be contacting him any more. He sounds like a crook and leave it to Pay Pal to bust him. Lying is a crime. Making a FALSE claim is a crime. I think it is!
Good luck.
That is unusual. Have never had a postal clerk not stamp the package in my presence.
PayPal does NOT NEED TO KNOW the origin of the deal. It's NONE of their concern.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
Any time we get a package that is smashed, looks like it's been retaped etc, the postal employee, ups, whoever will typically put a note in their little handheld scanner if we ask them to. That way if we open it and find something missing, they already have a record that it was suspicious. Of course if we aren't busy, we will open while they are there to be sure. That would be on the person receiving the package, not the seller.
If the package was never delivered and lost, then you not putting insurance on it would be a problem for you because the transaction was still in your end of the field. It doesn't become the buyer/receivers problem until it they sign for it. Once they receive it and sign for it, they are stating it's correct. If it isn't then it becomes their problem for not putting insurance on it. Personally, anytime it's of value I insure regardless of what the buyer wants because I want to be covered on my end if the package is lost, damaged, whatever, before the buyer receives it.
Collector of randomness. Photographer at PCGS. Lover of Harry Potter.
As stated before....Insurance is protection for the seller & not the buyer.
You're probably right. I've never had the problem receiving something wrong.
Collector of randomness. Photographer at PCGS. Lover of Harry Potter.
I suspect USPS will insure 'collectible bars'. I hope things work out for you, as a $1500+ loss would burn me as well.
That's all well and good except if he files a claim, they will take the money from the sellers' account. He's trying to protect himself by requesting a paypal guarantee
I self insure on Monday packages. But over $1000, I would have at least forced a signature. It also would make an illegitimate complaint postal fraud. This is a sticky wicket
Jmlanzaf your right PayPal will come and take your money not sure what the exact rules are. I have had them take money out of my Pay Pal account. Thats why I always transfer any funds into my personal account. If they come to take the money they leave a - negative balance in my account. I don't mind that because I always am in contact with PayPal and once they make their final determination thats when I will either Pay up or Win.
When I make my Refund to PayPal that is when they will come that the funds out of my personal account. I don't think PayPal has ever come into my personal account and take the funds without my permission. Once I give them permission its all pretty much a done deal.
Also your statement about making them sign for it at delivery is a must situation when the item hits a certain dollar figure. For you its $1000.00. For me its about $500.00
How can PP guarantee anything before an inquiry is finished?
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
You should NEVER give PP permission to withdraw funds from your personal account for any reason. If you owe them money then you transfer the funds to your PP account and then they can withdraw from that.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
Selling outside eBay works in your favor here. EBay will side with the buyer more easily than Paypal will.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I do agree but when I refund from PayPal it automatically pulls the funds out must be part of the initial set up. I was a bit shocked that they took the funds directly. Not sure why but it did. Maybe somebody here can explain but sounds like a PayPal set up when you link your bank account. They require a bank account if you want to be certified. But they DONT take the money ONLY when I manually press the " Refund " button. Then they take the funds automatically.
Plenty of people have been scammed selling through eBay too. Some here have posted about it.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
Never had a reason to be involved with that, but I'm not sure they should be able to do that. Many years ago they were disallowed from automatically debiting your bank account without your permission. I rarely pay from a bank account, but almost always use a CC.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
Couple of thoughts
1) Always use a sweep account when providing bank info to PayPal. I sweep my PayPal account daily, and the account that the funds go into. It is not my normal checking account. I also set that account up to not allow for a negative balance (PayPal can't; withdraw funds if there are no funds there. If you allow a negative balance, PayPal can get there money and rest assured if that happens, the bank will get their money from you one way or the other)
2) Insured/Registered mail, once signed for by the recipient is a done deal. There is no back recourse, so those who say they only ship insured or registered are NOT covered once the package has been signed for.
3) I'll be very very curious to see how this pans out....i was thinking about just this scenario last night. Another board member had a similar situation happen and they lost (I think it was thru E-Bay). Shipped Platinum and buyer said it was silver.
4) The venue of the transaction or going outside of E-Bay is irrelevant. I would not let PayPal know that.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
That was my point. It's easier for that to happen via eBay as eBay sides with buyer more easily than PayPal will.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
If you are selling via eBay, eBay TOS now allow them to charge the account you use to pay your monthly fees.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
That may well be, but it's PP in this case and I was sure that they were disallowed from auto debiting a member's bank account.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
If a recipient signs for a package, it does not relieve the sender from claim for fraud if it can be proven that the sender committed said fraud.
A signature only validates receipt/delivery. It doesn't validate package contents.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
I'm not sure how photos of the packing process is helpful. I could easily fake that by putting together a "correct" box, and then ship a similar "fake" box.
That brings it back to my original point that an off eBay transaction is better off for the OP in this case than an eBay one.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Alright so I made a call and talked to a representative who said bullion does not have any buyer or seller protection so the case should not have even been opened in the first place. He told me he would escalate it to a claim and then close it in my favor. He upgraded it to a claim (5 minutes ago or so) and am now just waiting on the resolution. Sure hope he is right....
It's a question of whether they even cover it.
actually, this is completely and totally false. eBay defers to PayPal and PayPal defers to the credit card company.
With eBay and PayPal, you have two sets of guarantees, one of which may work.
I received an additional email from PayPal stating they requested more information from the buyer. In his dispute he put "$1,800 product" so I think they just want to verify it is a silver bar.
still not true.
When the money's involved, everyone defers to the payment company.