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Bought a counterfeit 1884-s $1 pcgs au55 on ebay *updated with photos*
joebb21
Posts: 4,734 ✭✭✭✭✭
Coin didnt look right when it came in
Slab looked off
top of slab and bottom of slab are not same generation
doesnt make the correct noise when dropped on counter (if you hear the difference you would understand for those whom dont know)
may the fonz be with you...always...
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Question? Coin didn't look right, etc. is not helpful. You are saying both the coin and slab are counterfeit but before you return it would you please be more specific? Perhaps a image or two for our education. Do the numbers on the slab match the coin on the PCGS site? Thanks.
Hmmm....the coin looks okay. How do you know it is fake?
Cert. # matches.
Looks fine to me. Barcode scans to the correct coin. Coin looks 55.
.
Of course they fake those now also. But the coin looks good to me, although the pictures aren't great. I'm curious what he means about the slab not being right.
Me too.
Maybe the OP is an NGC dealer who wants to run down PCGS?
That's a lot for a low end 84-s in 55.
There is no photo on pcgs site so it is very hard to tell from ebay photo
I thought the price was good. These were selling for $700 a couple of years ago.
But never the barcode for some reason.
this is one of the reasons I really like how NGC takes photos of all coins they grade and even if the pics are terrible at least you can look at the coin and compare it.
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
The OP is a pretty knowledgeable person when it comes to coins and has been very helpful on these boards for over a decade. Not sure why you would post this but also not surprised.
K
This may end up being the one thing that makes NGC preferable to PCGS - that you can compare what you are buying with what the TPG says it should look like.
This wouldn't be the first time a genuine coin has been posted here with the poster claiming that it's a counterfeit coin. Agree with those that think this coin looks real.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Did you call the Secret Service yet? What actually happens when you do they the Secret Service knock on your door. Ask to see the coin then take said coin. Only to never see the coin again. Is that how it works? Me I would not know what to look for but you guys are the pro's.
@ElKevvo said: "The OP is a pretty knowledgeable person when it comes to coins and has been very helpful on these boards for over a decade. Not sure why you would post this but also not surprised."
See if you can figure it out for yourself. I thought my post was very snarky (
- it's in my nature) and very funny. 
BTW, what is more important in this discussion is: Do YOU think the OP's coin is a counterfeit in a counterfeit PCGS slab? We'll have to see won't we?
Furthermore, he has the coin and the slab and apparently he is very knowledgeable. I have to believe you because he knows how to authenticate slabbed coins by dropping them!
I had this one that upgraded:
Hard to tell from the scans, it had a great PL look and upgraded.
Take your precious metals verifer and see if the coin is actually 90% silver.
Can you show what you mean by one side of the slab not being the same as the other? Maybe that's why you are hearing a different sound from them.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
LOOK! What you have just done IMHO is screw up the OP's discussion. NOW, there are two different coins here! We are discussing the OP's coin. I for one don't care what you own when it is posted here. Please delete your image and start your own thread!
That 84-S is too effing fugly not to be legit
I think it was a joke
Looks legit to me. What's it weigh in that generation slab? Should be right about 55.5g. Wouldn't put much faith in the sigma, heavy silver plate will still come back authentic.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
I thought we established it was a genuine coin in a good holder; I thought we were talking about quality at this juncture.
Was a good comparison for me.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Not that I ever saw. In my experience prices were usually $450 to $500.
Please help me out, I'm fooled too.
EAC 6024
Some slab lessons for those that dont know and now also to teach those that are trying to fool others what they are missing.
Experience is huge in coins. Certain series I am really strong on while others I can use more experience. I recently purchased a complete set of $2.5 indians in a nice capital plastic holder and upon showing it to a Eric Streiner he immediately said "the 1908 is not real.... or the 1914.... also the 1928..."
He showed me what I was missing and I removed the coins from my inventory.
For fun I took the set to John Guilde- another gold expert who LOVES to be challenged and within 2 seconds he identified the same counterfeits. This knowledge comes from handling thousands of pieces and knowing how to identify anything that might be out of place. I was happy to learn.
Back on this coin, the morgan to me just has the wrong look. Maybe its a flatness-or the coloration/metal shine or just something made me take a second look. Some slab tale-tell signs.
Hopefully these 3 proofs can be identified in my accompanying photos.
Summation: Genuine new generation top of slab (and genuine tag)- perhaps a genuine back as well (while both individual sides may be the real deal, together they do not make it real as they come from different time periods)
The coin inside I believe is not genuine at all.
I don't have any slabbed dollars in inventory, but I have a couple dozen classic commems in those identical holders: same reverse, same obverse, no serial number on the bottom.
Edited to say: okay, the one thing that is off is the hologram over the other reverse label. You're right, that is off.
Only thing that doesn't add up is 2nd to last picture. As you say appears to be older generation reverse slab attached to newer generation front. Looks like someone sliced a slab and resealed. Obviously they would have swapped coin but still seems like a lot of trouble for not much profit.
Edit: Or perhaps just a PCGS error when transitioning from 4.5 to 5.0 holder. Could have a 5.0 front on a 4.5 reverse. Coin still looks legit to me.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
I have no ability to determine PCGS holders, but I would love to hear why the coin is counterfeit. I don't see any signs of a nongenuine Morgan Dollar. I truly would like to be educated on this, but also query that if the coin is genuine, why would someone go to the trouble of manufacturing a fake holder with the correct numbers. Where would be the profit(again if the coin is genuine)? I believe I would contact the seller with your concerns and tell them I was sending it to PCGS to be certified and if it is not, I would be returning it. JMO
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
The hologram looks odd, but I think they possibly are using up some of the old parts in the sealing room. I could be wrong, but I still think it's legit. Maybe someone from PCGS will see this thread and confirm?
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So you have a genuine AU55 1884-S Morgan in a counterfeit slab?
From above: The coin inside I believe is not genuine at all.
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what I see.
-the cetrificate of the 84-s looks like a newer style. the stacking corners on the slab look one or two generations old.
-if the certificate is as new as it looks, the holder should probably have edge view insert around the coin
-the big one is the qr code on the back of the certificate, and the CLCT hologram sticker on the back of the slab.
at the very least, it looks like the plastic was resealed with a newer (or fake) certificate. I cannot comment on the coin
have you tried twisting the slab in your hands with a grip on the top and bottom to see if the weld or whatever breaks?
If it is a fake and tampered with slab, what's the best recourse? If you return it for your money back, it could just get recycled to bite another collector.
I think I have a slab that is the same as that one... when I get home this evening I will check and get back. I seem to remember seeing one where the hologram covers the QR code and logo on the insert.
Collector, occasional seller
...the coin is real and so is the slab...the old hologram is used with bulk orders...that’s all
I still lean towards real, although the slab pieces are a couple generations removed.
The coin looks real to me.
The slab has the right number and identifier for that coin which appears to be about the same grade as indicated on the holder.
The ONLY thing that is off is the hologram. So, to be fake, someone managed to open the slab, swap coins, and replace the back with a different back after accidentally damaging it? Not impossible, mind you, but doesn't seem the most likely explanation.
All right everyone- I am returning the coin and just relying on my experience...
Interesting. If it is counterfeit, it seems like a lot of work for a common $300 coin.
Dave
Based on the pictures, the coins themselves look genuine.
The only possibility that I can see where they would be fake is if someone made sandwich coins by, for example, mating the obverse half of a genuine 1884-[P] coin with the reverse half of a genuine 1882-S (or similar) coin. But that does seem like a lot of work for a relatively small gain.
seems like a lot of work for a common $300 coin.
does seem like a lot of work for a relatively small gain
One of the things that bothers me about today's counterfeits is the link below (borrowed from a post earlier this year) describing how folks in China can make money selling $.99 items.
https://thydzik.com/how-do-chinesehong-kong-sellers-make-money-on-ebay-with-99c-free-shipping-items/
It stands to reason that if you can prosper in China selling $.99 items, selling $50-$500 counterfeits would be very attractive. It would also stand to reason that the "lot of work for little gain" view here in America might enable one to fly under the radar.
I have no idea if the coin or holder is fake, but I believe the "it's a lot of effort for $_____" is a false sense of security.
Counterfeits worry me. Even if the OP's holder and coin turn out to be genuine, I think this kind of dialogue is very valuable.
If we were all the same, the world would be an incredibly boring place.
Tommy
One other odd thing I just noticed is that on this "new slab" the coin holdered is not pronged.
All new PCGS AND NGC coins are have the prong inside. This does not. Another red flag.
At the end of the day there are many red flags and to me its just not worth the risk
Good Luck to OP...I suggest returning it by stating you do not like it...be careful telling the seller that the coin and the PCGS holder it’s in are fake...simply because they are not fake...absolutely that coin and it’s holder are real...I lost on a return one time by saying a coin was counterfeit when indeed it turned out to be real...cleaned and fugly...but real
Thanks but I trust my judgment and am willing to stand behind it. My pictures and explanation and a letter from pcgs confirming my statements about oddities in the slab will be enough proof that something about the coin/holder was fraudulent
...I actually agree with you now...LOL...the no prong with blue label is fishy as hell so return that sucker and don’t pay attention to my nonsense
Can someone tell me what generation the holder is?
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Bad transactions with : nobody to date
Letter from PCGS you say? I'm interested to hear what they thought.
Collector, occasional seller