Compare holograms (comparison image taken from the Spruce Crafts page linked in my previous post):
And a real one:
See how on the right of the hologram the real one has a BUNCH of space and how on the first two the Saint Gaudens logo is right on the right edge? I'm pretty convinced these first 2 holograms are from the same place in China.
Yes, I can look at those pictures and tell that the knobs are too long or too short or the wrong shape. Yours aren't. And usually, there are no knobs at all.
Additionally, the fake labels inside fake slabs are usually horrendously made, but this one shows no issues that I can detect.
It is badly made and if you held it you'd agree it feels cheap and wrong compared to any real PCGS slab.
I don't think it is badly made. If it is a fake, it would be the best-made fake I've ever seen.
It even has the hologram on the reverse of the label, inside the slab.
FALSE! It's outside the slab, peeling badly and looks REALLY cheap (doesn't reflect right at all).
Disregard that, I meant the qr code inside the slab. The holograms on the outside do peel, and it looks like it reflects ok to me although I can't see it in hand.
The material the slab is made of also looks right - look at the way it chipped at the bottom.
Then why is it so light?
Because it's chipped at the bottom so there's literally a chunk of plastic missing. Also, a) there's no evidence that's there's a precise standard for slab weight (and I highly doubt there is, given how wildly your other slabs differ from even each other in weight), b) you're comparing different generation of slabs, this being a 4.6, and c) plastic will lose weight after wear and tear, just like coins do. You're not being scientific about it when you've got a sample size of five slabs.
So essentially you've got a label that is extremely likely to be real
Even though no one can find me an example of a real QR code gen 6 label without an embedded bottom hologram
Addressed in my final sentence. EDIT: Just realized you meant the hologram bar at the bottom. That's actually not on the paper label, but attached to the plastic slab, so if it were a slab-label mix-up like I suggested, it wouldn't be there.
a coin that at the very least would need to be a very well-made fake, and looks right for the assigned grade (often fake coins in fake slabs look like they would be wildly over- or undergraded if real, and often look polished, like the other one shown in this thread).
I agree the coin appears to be real or a VERY good fake. There are other very good fakes that fool collectors all the time though, and no one looks twice at an AU mid-tier coin like they do an MS key date.
After looking twice at this nothing sticks out to me and the luster especially looks right.
The combination of these three things all being fake would be very unlikely. As far as taking a real holder and a real slab and putting a fake coin in it, this would be nearly impossible, because PCGS slabs simply cannot be broken open and put back together - so you have to keep in mind that if the coin is fake and it's not an authenticity mistake by PCGS, then the slab basically must be fake as well.
I agree that this is not likely to be a reslab using an authentic holder - my money is on the slab being entirely fake, but the coin I'm completely unsure of at this point.
Regarding the slab generations, it seems the simplest solution to me that the coin was holdered in the Gen 6.0 era, probably in mid-2015, but using a leftover Gen 4.6 slab with the 4.6 hologram pre-attached to it from a few months earlier.
Why would PCGS do something like that? It seems extremely unprofessional. Have you come across other slabs where this has occurred? If I had received this from PCGS I would have immediately asked for a reslab or refund. Unless you can show me a picture of a similar slab, I'm going with all my instincts here that this is extremely fishy.
If this happened during the time when they were transitioning to 6.0 and still had plenty of older slabs left then it makes some sense, and I doubt anyone would complain (it's not like we pay for a specific generation of slab). Would it be better for PCGS to discard a ton of plastic as soon as they switched inner label designs? People also make mistakes, and mistakes like this have been known to happen from time to time. The 6.0 and 4.6 slabs look very similar except for the outer hologram, and they could have easily been mixed up. It's exceedingly more likely than the alternative.
I understand it's hard to convey a lot of this (the feel of the slab, the sound it makes, etc.) over the internet, but there's enough here to DEFINITELY get it checked by PCGS. Regardless of the outcome, this horrible slab will be gone forever (I'm asking them to reslab if genuine), and no one will be stuck with it again to face the same fate. If indeed PCGS put this together, they should really reslab for free. If it's fake I'm happy to help remove it from the market. It's not fair to other collectors to allow this to circulate.
There's no evidence that there's a standard sound that PCGS slabs "should" produce when dropped onto a surface, and as far as the fraction-of-a-millimeter differences in sizes from earlier in this thread, there's no evidence that there shouldn't be a variety in that regard as well. Also, you're again not accounting for regular wear-and-tear in any of these (sound, weight, and size), and again your sample size is four other coins that aren't even the same generation of slab.
To conclude, I have held tens of thousands of real slabs in my hands. I've seen fake slabs, and I've seen fake labels. I do not think this is a fake slab. I do not think this is a "horrible" slab. Yes, PCGS makes mistakes sometimes when slabbing coins. This would be even be questionable as a real mistake, as it's their decision how to holder coins, what slab types to use when doing so, and how they design their own slabs. But by all means have it reholdered, because it does seem to have been tossed around a bit and the new slabs look nicer anyway.
@dorganmaulers said:
Compare holograms (comparison image taken from the Spruce Crafts page linked in my previous post):
And a real one:
See how on the right of the hologram the real one has a BUNCH of space and how on the first two the Saint Gaudens logo is right on the right edge? I'm pretty convinced these first 2 holograms are from the same place in China.
The bottom one is a different generation, so the hologram has a different design. The fake one is probably just a photocopy of a real one so it looks the same. Anyway, I'm gonna head out now. Peace ✌️
I appreciate your input, but just a few clarifications:
There is not a chunk missing at all from this slab. It has cracks in it, sure, but no plastic is gone. I think the picture misleading you is the one where it's on the scale - it's an odd refraction. I just checked again and all the bottom plastic is there. As far as I can tell at least 98% of the plastic is there accounting for some wear (there's really not a lot, it's just cloudy as heck).
Given the coin is in AU state, if it's genuine the slab weighs 24.9g. Given weights from other slabs, that appears to be much lighter than normal for any generation before 6. If someone can find me a generation 4 Morgan slab that weighs anywhere close to that, let me know.
Why don't you just send it off the PCGS? You could have already had the answer. We told you to weigh it back in September 2018 already. Here we are in 2020 finally putting it on the scale. Maybe by 2024 we will have the results from the re-evaluation. lol
@blitzdude said:
Why don't you just send it off the PCGS? You could have already had the answer. We told you to weigh it back in September 2018 already. Here we are in 2020 finally putting it on the scale. Maybe by 2024 we will have the results from the re-evaluation. lol
No wonder this post is so hard to follow- pages are turning yellow.
I am trying to understand if PCGS has seen any of this... Cert is still active.
@blitzdude said:
Why don't you just send it off the PCGS? You could have already had the answer. We told you to weigh it back in September 2018 already. Here we are in 2020 finally putting it on the scale. Maybe by 2024 we will have the results from the re-evaluation. lol
The person who weighed it and is planning to send it off to PCGS joined the forum 2.5 weeks ago. They purchased the coin over a year after the OP bought/returned it.
@blitzdude said:
Why don't you just send it off the PCGS? You could have already had the answer. We told you to weigh it back in September 2018 already. Here we are in 2020 finally putting it on the scale. Maybe by 2024 we will have the results from the re-evaluation. lol
Edited, as I see that this was already cleared up in prior post.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Perhaps 2020 is the year we will finally learn PCGS opinion of this coin and multigenerational slab. Perhaps we will also receive @Insider2 's answer as to what caused the PMD on the 1888-O Morgan. Not holding my breath for either.
Pretty sure I have similar slabs (hologram over QR code) in my collection that are genuine but I'm too lazy to go out back and dig them up. This one weighing in at 51 grams and change is certainly raises a red flag. Seems to be ~8% light compared to Morgan + slab of that era.
Thanks for confirming the weight is a red flag to you. It seems only the very new slabs are in the mid 52g area and I've not seen one yet in the 51s.
To address the above, yes I bought the coin and revived the thread. I'm convinced it's exactly the same slab that started the thread. Someone else made a post about another coin he bought on eBay about a week ago here, but discussion died quickly so far on that.
@dorganmaulers said:
Thanks for confirming the weight is a red flag to you. It seems only the very new slabs are in the mid 52g area and I've not seen one yet in the 51s.
To address the above, yes I bought the coin and revived the thread. I'm convinced it's exactly the same slab that started the thread. Someone else made a post about another coin he bought on eBay about a week ago here, but discussion died quickly so far on that.
Yep I got confused with the other coin that was posted that the guy thought was painted. My apologies.
Every Morgan slab I own from that era is in the 55.5g range, 51g is quite significant difference. I do not have any in the newest generation holders so I can't speak for the weights there.
Fake coins in fake slabs are out there. Most often it is easy to see that the coin inside the slab is a fake and thus the lightbulb goes off. Here's an example that is up for sale on Aliexpress.com
Note the coin is not a 66 by any stretch (nevermind even looking at the slab). The obverse is much worse than the reverse, however. Maybe someone can capture the pics?
bob https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32810405897.html?
Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
@AUandAG said:
Fake coins in fake slabs are out there. Most often it is easy to see that the coin inside the slab is a fake and thus the lightbulb goes off. Here's an example that is up for sale on Aliexpress.com
Note the coin is not a 66 by any stretch (nevermind even looking at the slab). The obverse is much worse than the reverse, however. Maybe someone can capture the pics?
bob https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32810405897.html?
_**Welcome to my coins Store!
I am a Chinese coin collectors,I have a factory of production coin.
I could provide the best coins and best service for you.**_
I reviewed the images with my contacts at PCGS- they are certainly willing to review it for you, you just need to send it in. Seems pretty easy to resolve the issue versus continuing to talk about it here and speculate.
@burfle23 said:
I reviewed the images with my contacts at PCGS- they are certainly willing to review it for you, you just need to send it in. Seems pretty easy to resolve the issue versus continuing to talk about it here and speculate.
Thanks I appreciate that. I'll be sending it in very shortly.
@burfle23 said:
I reviewed the images with my contacts at PCGS- they are certainly willing to review it for you, you just need to send it in. Seems pretty easy to resolve the issue versus continuing to talk about it here and speculate.
Thanks I appreciate that. I'll be sending it in very shortly.
Highly recommend you get a direct POC to send it too.
@burfle23 said:
I reviewed the images with my contacts at PCGS- they are certainly willing to review it for you, you just need to send it in. Seems pretty easy to resolve the issue versus continuing to talk about it here and speculate.
Thanks I appreciate that. I'll be sending it in very shortly.
Highly recommend you get a direct POC to send it too.
How would I go about that? Just call customer service or...
@dorganmaulers said:
Also, I called PCGS last night and they told me to send the coin in with the correct service level and the service type as Other: Holder Check. They said if I wanted it reholdered to write that in the comments on the form. On this one, if it is an authentic coin in a fake slab, I do want it reholdered and regraded. I plan to send that out shortly.
For some reason it feels like groundhog day. You can send to me and I will gladly send in for you. Thanks!
@burfle23 said:
I reviewed the images with my contacts at PCGS- they are certainly willing to review it for you, you just need to send it in. Seems pretty easy to resolve the issue versus continuing to talk about it here and speculate.
Thanks I appreciate that. I'll be sending it in very shortly.
Highly recommend you get a direct POC to send it too.
How would I go about that? Just call customer service or...
Yes, CS will tell you. Seems you’ve already called.
I did indeed get a refund and the check cleared. Hooray!
The seller has the slab now, see pictures taken before I sent it off.
PCGS corrected their statement above: The coin IS REAL but they said it is a lower grade than AU55. I told them to just drill the slab instead of re-grading it.
The slab AND the label were fake. They are EXTREMELY good fakes, especially the front of the label. I put it under the microscope one last time before sending and it even has the little yellow dots like the real labels have.
Here are the final pictures of what PCGS did:
I appreciate everyone's help with this, and cheers especially to joebb21 for creating the original post and burfle23 for his assistance. Also thanks to PCGS for taking a look at this. I hope what I've posted here can be used to gauge similar slabs so we can avoid getting scammed in the future by these fake artists. I urge anyone else in the same situation I was in to attempt to work with your seller to get your money back, and if the seller is OK with it send it to the TPG for authentication rather than letting it float to another buyer. A good seller will give you your money back. In the end, the seller is supposed to be the knowledgeable one and shouldn't be tricked by this sort of thing, so it's only proper for him/her to take the financial hit.
@davewesen said:
How could they tell it was not a sandwich if not removed from slab? What do they feel it should be AU50?
I'm no expert on their methods but I have good reason to trust the opinion that was given. They did not regrade it, only let me know it was nowhere near 55.
@davewesen said:
How could they tell it was not a sandwich if not removed from slab? What do they feel it should be AU50?
I'm no expert on their methods but I have good reason to trust the opinion that was given. They did not regrade it, only let me know it was nowhere near 55.
If the coin is real it is most certainly near 55. That is what makes this so odd. Why put a real coin in a fake slab that is close to the stated grade? Never seen that before.
@davewesen said:
How could they tell it was not a sandwich if not removed from slab? What do they feel it should be AU50?
I'm no expert on their methods but I have good reason to trust the opinion that was given. They did not regrade it, only let me know it was nowhere near 55.
If the coin is real it is most certainly near 55. That is what makes this so odd. Why put a real coin in a fake slab that is close to the stated grade? Never seen that before.
Even if it's a 50 that's a $300 profit or so. This coin ramps up so hard in AU that it does make some sense if one did 100 of these in a batch.
I did indeed get a refund and the check cleared. Hooray!
The seller has the slab now, see pictures taken before I sent it off.
PCGS corrected their statement above: The coin IS REAL but they said it is a lower grade than AU55. I told them to just drill the slab instead of re-grading it.
The slab AND the label were fake. They are EXTREMELY good fakes, especially the front of the label. I put it under the microscope one last time before sending and it even has the little yellow dots like the real labels have.
Any reason you told them to leave it in the slab instead of grading it in a real slab?
Of course, it's nice to have evidence of what is being done in the marketplace.
Thanks for posting the photos and history of this coin here. Definitely an interesting situation which hopefully the new RFID slabs will help address. I still appreciate having TPG photos on Cert Verification to help prevent purchase in the first place.
I left it in the slab because I didn't want to pay to have the coin graded if I was just going to return it to the seller, which at that point because I knew the slab was counterfeit I was already set on doing. If he wants to he can have it graded; I just wanted my money back and to be out of the coin.
RFID slabs will be amazing but we'll always have legacy slabs floating around, and these counterfeits will blend right in with that group for decades. They need to make TPG basic photos free for ALL new certifications on NGC and PCGS. Even if the picture is terrible, as long as we can see the marks on the coin its fine. Don't even bother making it look nice; just a quick phone-level picture in decent light is all that's required. Takes less than a minute. Hire an intern for $7/hr to do it. Would make faking slabs a HUGE amount harder.
Comments
Compare holograms (comparison image taken from the Spruce Crafts page linked in my previous post):
And a real one:
See how on the right of the hologram the real one has a BUNCH of space and how on the first two the Saint Gaudens logo is right on the right edge? I'm pretty convinced these first 2 holograms are from the same place in China.
Yes, I can look at those pictures and tell that the knobs are too long or too short or the wrong shape. Yours aren't. And usually, there are no knobs at all.
I don't think it is badly made. If it is a fake, it would be the best-made fake I've ever seen.
Disregard that, I meant the qr code inside the slab. The holograms on the outside do peel, and it looks like it reflects ok to me although I can't see it in hand.
Because it's chipped at the bottom so there's literally a chunk of plastic missing. Also, a) there's no evidence that's there's a precise standard for slab weight (and I highly doubt there is, given how wildly your other slabs differ from even each other in weight), b) you're comparing different generation of slabs, this being a 4.6, and c) plastic will lose weight after wear and tear, just like coins do. You're not being scientific about it when you've got a sample size of five slabs.
Addressed in my final sentence. EDIT: Just realized you meant the hologram bar at the bottom. That's actually not on the paper label, but attached to the plastic slab, so if it were a slab-label mix-up like I suggested, it wouldn't be there.
After looking twice at this nothing sticks out to me and the luster especially looks right.
If this happened during the time when they were transitioning to 6.0 and still had plenty of older slabs left then it makes some sense, and I doubt anyone would complain (it's not like we pay for a specific generation of slab). Would it be better for PCGS to discard a ton of plastic as soon as they switched inner label designs? People also make mistakes, and mistakes like this have been known to happen from time to time. The 6.0 and 4.6 slabs look very similar except for the outer hologram, and they could have easily been mixed up. It's exceedingly more likely than the alternative.
There's no evidence that there's a standard sound that PCGS slabs "should" produce when dropped onto a surface, and as far as the fraction-of-a-millimeter differences in sizes from earlier in this thread, there's no evidence that there shouldn't be a variety in that regard as well. Also, you're again not accounting for regular wear-and-tear in any of these (sound, weight, and size), and again your sample size is four other coins that aren't even the same generation of slab.
To conclude, I have held tens of thousands of real slabs in my hands. I've seen fake slabs, and I've seen fake labels. I do not think this is a fake slab. I do not think this is a "horrible" slab. Yes, PCGS makes mistakes sometimes when slabbing coins. This would be even be questionable as a real mistake, as it's their decision how to holder coins, what slab types to use when doing so, and how they design their own slabs. But by all means have it reholdered, because it does seem to have been tossed around a bit and the new slabs look nicer anyway.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
The bottom one is a different generation, so the hologram has a different design. The fake one is probably just a photocopy of a real one so it looks the same. Anyway, I'm gonna head out now. Peace ✌️
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
I appreciate your input, but just a few clarifications:
Why don't you just send it off the PCGS? You could have already had the answer. We told you to weigh it back in September 2018 already. Here we are in 2020 finally putting it on the scale. Maybe by 2024 we will have the results from the re-evaluation. lol
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
No wonder this post is so hard to follow- pages are turning yellow.
I am trying to understand if PCGS has seen any of this... Cert is still active.
Just glancing at what look to be the most recent images of the coin (from December of last year), my first impression is that it’s genuine.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The person who weighed it and is planning to send it off to PCGS joined the forum 2.5 weeks ago. They purchased the coin over a year after the OP bought/returned it.
Edited, as I see that this was already cleared up in prior post.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Perhaps 2020 is the year we will finally learn PCGS opinion of this coin and multigenerational slab. Perhaps we will also receive @Insider2 's answer as to what caused the PMD on the 1888-O Morgan. Not holding my breath for either.
Pretty sure I have similar slabs (hologram over QR code) in my collection that are genuine but I'm too lazy to go out back and dig them up. This one weighing in at 51 grams and change is certainly raises a red flag. Seems to be ~8% light compared to Morgan + slab of that era.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
Thanks for confirming the weight is a red flag to you. It seems only the very new slabs are in the mid 52g area and I've not seen one yet in the 51s.
To address the above, yes I bought the coin and revived the thread. I'm convinced it's exactly the same slab that started the thread. Someone else made a post about another coin he bought on eBay about a week ago here, but discussion died quickly so far on that.
Yep I got confused with the other coin that was posted that the guy thought was painted. My apologies.
Every Morgan slab I own from that era is in the 55.5g range, 51g is quite significant difference. I do not have any in the newest generation holders so I can't speak for the weights there.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
Fake coins in fake slabs are out there. Most often it is easy to see that the coin inside the slab is a fake and thus the lightbulb goes off. Here's an example that is up for sale on Aliexpress.com
Note the coin is not a 66 by any stretch (nevermind even looking at the slab). The obverse is much worse than the reverse, however. Maybe someone can capture the pics?
bob
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32810405897.html?
_**Welcome to my coins Store!
I am a Chinese coin collectors,I have a factory of production coin.
I could provide the best coins and best service for you.**_
LOL cranking them out.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
I reviewed the images with my contacts at PCGS- they are certainly willing to review it for you, you just need to send it in. Seems pretty easy to resolve the issue versus continuing to talk about it here and speculate.
Thanks I appreciate that. I'll be sending it in very shortly.
Highly recommend you get a direct POC to send it too.
How would I go about that? Just call customer service or...
For some reason it feels like groundhog day. You can send to me and I will gladly send in for you. Thanks!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
Yes, CS will tell you. Seems you’ve already called.
Yeah they just told me what was quoted above; didn't give me a name to ATTN or anything.
As I thought I mentioned, I used to send to Anibal Almeida. Not sure if he's still there
Sure, but without some sort of confirmation from PCGS themselves or someone in touch with PCGS, I'm not going to just write an ATTN to a name.
Whoever owns this coin please PM me and I will get you in contact with my PCGS contact who agreed to review it and this will be finally finished...
Best, Jack D. Young
I sent a message to your inbox here.
I'm happy to say I found a POC at PCGS that has agreed to review the slab. I'll be sending it in shortly.
Great!
Let us know how it goes, please.
Well it's official!!
Thanks for the follow-up.
.duplicate post.
Wow - yes thanks!
Interesting...
My contact who you sent it to stated " Coin is real, holder is compromised. ".
The plot thickens. Perhaps Araceli mis-typed her response.
CN eBay
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
Unreal, will we ever get a straight answer? Maybe I will check back in 2027.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
@dorganmaulers can you get a refund now?
Make sure to leave your laptop powered down in the meantime.
Laptop? What kind of dinosaur still uses a laptop? lol
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
The kind of dinosaur that didn’t notice the conclusion of the thread 5 posts above his gasp for a resolution.
We are on the same page! I hope it finally comes to a real conclusion...
Alright to conclude this saga:
Here are the final pictures of what PCGS did:
I appreciate everyone's help with this, and cheers especially to joebb21 for creating the original post and burfle23 for his assistance. Also thanks to PCGS for taking a look at this. I hope what I've posted here can be used to gauge similar slabs so we can avoid getting scammed in the future by these fake artists. I urge anyone else in the same situation I was in to attempt to work with your seller to get your money back, and if the seller is OK with it send it to the TPG for authentication rather than letting it float to another buyer. A good seller will give you your money back. In the end, the seller is supposed to be the knowledgeable one and shouldn't be tricked by this sort of thing, so it's only proper for him/her to take the financial hit.
How could they tell it was not a sandwich if not removed from slab? What do they feel it should be AU50?
I'm no expert on their methods but I have good reason to trust the opinion that was given. They did not regrade it, only let me know it was nowhere near 55.
If the coin is real it is most certainly near 55. That is what makes this so odd. Why put a real coin in a fake slab that is close to the stated grade? Never seen that before.
My Early Large Cents
Even if it's a 50 that's a $300 profit or so. This coin ramps up so hard in AU that it does make some sense if one did 100 of these in a batch.
Gotta go out and find 100 AU50s first.
My Early Large Cents
They're all over eBay for $130-$150. Would be pretty easy. Then you sell the fake slabs for $450 on eBay. Check eBay sold.
Any reason you told them to leave it in the slab instead of grading it in a real slab?
Of course, it's nice to have evidence of what is being done in the marketplace.
Thanks for posting the photos and history of this coin here. Definitely an interesting situation which hopefully the new RFID slabs will help address. I still appreciate having TPG photos on Cert Verification to help prevent purchase in the first place.
I left it in the slab because I didn't want to pay to have the coin graded if I was just going to return it to the seller, which at that point because I knew the slab was counterfeit I was already set on doing. If he wants to he can have it graded; I just wanted my money back and to be out of the coin.
RFID slabs will be amazing but we'll always have legacy slabs floating around, and these counterfeits will blend right in with that group for decades. They need to make TPG basic photos free for ALL new certifications on NGC and PCGS. Even if the picture is terrible, as long as we can see the marks on the coin its fine. Don't even bother making it look nice; just a quick phone-level picture in decent light is all that's required. Takes less than a minute. Hire an intern for $7/hr to do it. Would make faking slabs a HUGE amount harder.