Why doesn't Heritage use TrueViews when available?

ms70 · September 4, 2018 5:03PM

I'm not aware of any restrictions and they're far better than their pics...

Just a policy I guess?

GRANDAM · September 4, 2018 5:05PM

They probably never check to see that they are available?

KellenCoin · September 4, 2018 5:10PM

I am thinking they prefer their own photos, not foe any specific reason, just because they can.

Barndog · September 4, 2018 5:10PM

copyright protection?

jmlanzaf · September 4, 2018 5:10PM

Who owns the commercial copyright to truview images?

Traz · September 4, 2018 5:11PM

I had to ask them to use the true view, so I know they can. It would not be hard to implement since TVs are always the same dimension.

I usually just pull the cert up manually if it’s something I’m interested in and don’t view in person.

RogerB · September 4, 2018 5:33PM

It is an intrusion on the standard workflow of their operation. They also are certain that the slab and coin are correct and sized to fit into their catalog format for print and on-line use. Fiddling with someone else's photos is a pain and takes more time than it is likely worth. Lastly, they'd have to take the full slab photos anyway, so why not do it all?

cameonut2011 · September 4, 2018 6:09PM

@Barndog said:
copyright protection?

PCGS allows the photos to be used for commercial purposes.

CommemKing · September 4, 2018 6:44PM

Great Collections won’t use them either.

from_here_to_brazil · September 4, 2018 6:47PM

Maybe it's that Heritage's photos better represent what you see with the naked eye vs. TrueView. I've bought toned coins where it's almost impossible to see with the naked eye what is shown on a TrueView.

Barndog · September 4, 2018 6:49PM

@cameonut2011 said:

@Barndog said:
copyright protection?

PCGS allows the photos to be used for commercial purposes.

cool, I did not know that!

Barndog · September 4, 2018 6:54PM

@from_here_to_brazil said:
Maybe it's that Heritage's photos better represent what you see with the naked eye vs. TrueView.

hmm

Zoins · September 4, 2018 7:59PM

PCGS holds the copyright for TrueViews and they have indicated that they don't permit anyone to build up a site of TrueViews for coins you don’t own. Since one of HA's goals is to build a database of all past auctions, including photos, adding TrueViews would likely violate this policy.

Legend Auctions started off using CoinFacts photos (TrueViews without the background) but I don't know if they still do that.

SeatedToners · September 4, 2018 8:02PM

Stacks doesn’t use true views either. I just picked up a nice coin with a beautiful true view, but in the stacks picture it looked dark and dull.

Zoins · September 4, 2018 8:10PM

@SeatedToners said:
Stacks doesn’t use true views either. I just picked up a nice coin with a beautiful true view, but in the stacks picture it looked dark and dull.

I think Stacks does a wonderful job for the pieces I look at, primarily medals. I wish they would keep their listings up forever like HA.

CoinBlog · September 4, 2018 11:57PM

I also wish they did since I have consigned coins to auctions and their images aren't as good.

BStrauss3 · September 5, 2018 4:04AM

@jmlanzaf said:
Who owns the commercial copyright to truview images?

PCGS owns the copyright (period). You are licensed for personal usage.

I suspect the beauty shot nature of these images would cause more problems than they are worth with people disputing the sale. By using their own images, we can translate more successfully from picture to coin.

jmlanzaf · September 5, 2018 4:33AM

@BStrauss3 said:

@jmlanzaf said:
Who owns the commercial copyright to truview images?

PCGS owns the copyright (period). You are licensed for personal usage.

I suspect the beauty shot nature of these images would cause more problems than they are worth with people disputing the sale. By using their own images, we can translate more successfully from picture to coin.

In other words, Heritage does not have the right to use truview images for commercial purposes?

BillJones · September 5, 2018 4:46AM

It seems to me that True Views are like glamor shots for women. They can overemphasize the positive. For what worth, I think that Stacks’ photos are better than Heritage.

ricko · September 5, 2018 5:35AM

I have always liked TruViews, and consider them to be a reasonable representation of the coin. Some aspects of coins are difficult to photograph and, quite frankly, (and in my opinion), nothing compares with 'in hand' viewing of a coin. That being said, I really enjoy all the pictures here and magnified views for evaluating varieties and errors. So, there is value, and risk, in each viewing medium and all should be utilized when possible. Cheers, RickO

ARCO · September 5, 2018 5:57AM

Trueview is nt how the coin appears in person, in hand. Heritage pics are a much more accurate representation of the coin.

JBatDavidLawrence · September 5, 2018 6:23AM

We'd be happy to use a True View image if the consignor desired us to do so. We'd also include images that we'd take ourselves to give multiple representations of the coin...if it serves the customer better, it just makes sense in my opinion...

messydesk · September 5, 2018 6:49AM

The real reason is workflow. They are an assembly line when it comes to cataloging stuff, and that includes photos. The best way to keep it running smoothly is to keep it closed.

That said, the least disruptive way for them to use TrueViews would be, if an auction lot listing contained the TPG serial number and it could be determined that a TrueView existed, to link it from the online listing at the time the listing page is generated for the viewer, much the way the TrueView is automatically inserted on the cert verification page, by inserting the following into their listing (substituting the actual serial number for the one used below).

<a href="https://images.pcgs.com/TrueView/35872089_max.jpg">
  <img src="https://images.pcgs.com/TrueView/35872089_medium.jpg>
</a>

Of course, if PCGS were to change the storage scheme without informing Heritage, it would leave dead image links on Heritage's pages.

BryceM · September 5, 2018 6:53AM

As long as the slab number is there, it's really not that difficult to find the TV. As a collector, I can afford the time to scrutinize 20 or 30 photos. If I was a dealer and potentially bidding on hundreds of coins....... well, then I'd be looking in-hand, no doubt.

RogerB · September 5, 2018 7:09AM

One minor point - the PCGS photos are made before the coin is encapsulated. This permits better lighting and avoids image degradation from the plastic holder.

topstuf · September 5, 2018 7:24AM

It would be a bad idea.
The function of an auction is to be uniform in the presentation of items for bids.
It would amount to some items getting preferential presentation.
A very bad thing in my opinion.

BStrauss3 · September 5, 2018 3:32PM

@jmlanzaf said:
In other words, Heritage does not have the right to use truview images for commercial purposes?

PCGS defines your rights as:

What are the Terms of Use and who ‘owns' the image of the coin?
Note that PCGS retains the image rights to the coin and may use the imagery as we see fit. That said, you are free to use the TrueView images however you like. This may include online sales or Set Registry listings, personal photo albums, or the creation of wall art or other décor that feature your coins.

So either HA would have to license the images from PCGS or leverage your rights (include online sales). If you weren't the original purchaser of the TrueView you don't have even those rights.

The "deep linking" @messydesk shows has been the subject of lawsuits with different results in different jurisdictions.

When selling (potentially) internationally, you have to follow all the laws (which means the most restrictive) or maybe risk being banned in the EU, etc.

ms70 · September 5, 2018 4:00PM

@BStrauss3 said:

So either HA would have to license the images from PCGS or leverage your rights (include online sales). If you weren't the original purchaser of the TrueView you don't have even those rights.

The "deep linking" @messydesk shows has been the subject of lawsuits with different results in different jurisdictions.

When selling (potentially) internationally, you have to follow all the laws (which means the most restrictive) or maybe risk being banned in the EU, etc.

So are the rights to a TrueView's use transferred along with the ownership of the pictured coin? I'm guessing it has to be, so the coin's owner and an enlisted 3rd party seller could use it. Any lawyers in the house?

skier07 · September 5, 2018 4:11PM

@BryceM said:
As long as the slab number is there, it's really not that difficult to find the TV. As a collector, I can afford the time to scrutinize 20 or 30 photos. If I was a dealer and potentially bidding on hundreds of coins....... well, then I'd be looking in-hand, no doubt.

How do I find the TrueView?

jmlanzaf · September 5, 2018 4:11PM

@BStrauss3 said:

@jmlanzaf said:
In other words, Heritage does not have the right to use truview images for commercial purposes?

PCGS defines your rights as:

What are the Terms of Use and who ‘owns' the image of the coin?
Note that PCGS retains the image rights to the coin and may use the imagery as we see fit. That said, you are free to use the TrueView images however you like. This may include online sales or Set Registry listings, personal photo albums, or the creation of wall art or other décor that feature your coins.

So either HA would have to license the images from PCGS or leverage your rights (include online sales). If you weren't the original purchaser of the TrueView you don't have even those rights.

The "deep linking" @messydesk shows has been the subject of lawsuits with different results in different jurisdictions.

When selling (potentially) internationally, you have to follow all the laws (which means the most restrictive) or maybe risk being banned in the EU, etc.

That was my general feeling. Thank you for confirming.

jmlanzaf · September 5, 2018 4:12PM

@ms70 said:

@BStrauss3 said:

So either HA would have to license the images from PCGS or leverage your rights (include online sales). If you weren't the original purchaser of the TrueView you don't have even those rights.

The "deep linking" @messydesk shows has been the subject of lawsuits with different results in different jurisdictions.

When selling (potentially) internationally, you have to follow all the laws (which means the most restrictive) or maybe risk being banned in the EU, etc.

So are the rights to a TrueView's use transferred along with the ownership of the pictured coin? I'm guessing it has to be, so the coin's owner and an enlisted 3rd party seller could use it. Any lawyers in the house?

Probably not. There's nothing about it on the PCGS site.

ms70 · September 5, 2018 4:17PM

@jmlanzaf said:

@ms70 said:

@BStrauss3 said:

So either HA would have to license the images from PCGS or leverage your rights (include online sales). If you weren't the original purchaser of the TrueView you don't have even those rights.

The "deep linking" @messydesk shows has been the subject of lawsuits with different results in different jurisdictions.

When selling (potentially) internationally, you have to follow all the laws (which means the most restrictive) or maybe risk being banned in the EU, etc.

So are the rights to a TrueView's use transferred along with the ownership of the pictured coin? I'm guessing it has to be, so the coin's owner and an enlisted 3rd party seller could use it. Any lawyers in the house?

Probably not. There's nothing about it on the PCGS site.

So, just for the sake of conversation, you think that to have the "rights" a new owner of a TrueView'ed coin would have to have it TrueView'ed again?

ms70 · September 5, 2018 4:18PM

@skier07 said:

@BryceM said:
As long as the slab number is there, it's really not that difficult to find the TV. As a collector, I can afford the time to scrutinize 20 or 30 photos. If I was a dealer and potentially bidding on hundreds of coins....... well, then I'd be looking in-hand, no doubt.

How do I find the TrueView?

Just go to the cert verification page and enter the cert#. If it has one it will come up on the right.

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/

jmlanzaf · September 5, 2018 4:28PM

@ms70 said:

@jmlanzaf said:

ship of the pictured coin? I'm guessing it has to be, so the coin's owner and an enlisted 3rd party seller could use it. Any lawyers in the house?

Probably not. There's nothing about it on the PCGS site.

So, just for the sake of conversation, you think that to have the "rights" a new owner of a TrueView'ed coin would have to have it TrueView'ed again?

Possibly. Remember, PCGS owns the copyright to the image. They license it to you for "private use" when you buy it. Private use is not commercial use and does not automatically transfer with ownership of the coin as the image copyright is actually a completely different property from the coin.

ms70 · September 5, 2018 6:56PM

@jmlanzaf said:

@ms70 said:

@jmlanzaf said:

ship of the pictured coin? I'm guessing it has to be, so the coin's owner and an enlisted 3rd party seller could use it. Any lawyers in the house?

Probably not. There's nothing about it on the PCGS site.

So, just for the sake of conversation, you think that to have the "rights" a new owner of a TrueView'ed coin would have to have it TrueView'ed again?

Possibly. Remember, PCGS owns the copyright to the image. They license it to you for "private use" when you buy it. Private use is not commercial use and does not automatically transfer with ownership of the coin as the image copyright is actually a completely different property from the coin.

That's an interesting thought. IF that happens to be the case it would be good to "attach" the rights of the photo to the current owner of the coin as it changes hands.

jmlanzaf · September 5, 2018 7:22PM

@ms70 said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@ms70 said:

@jmlanzaf said:

ship of the pictured coin? I'm guessing it has to be, so the coin's owner and an enlisted 3rd party seller could use it. Any lawyers in the house?

Probably not. There's nothing about it on the PCGS site.

So, just for the sake of conversation, you think that to have the "rights" a new owner of a TrueView'ed coin would have to have it TrueView'ed again?

Possibly. Remember, PCGS owns the copyright to the image. They license it to you for "private use" when you buy it. Private use is not commercial use and does not automatically transfer with ownership of the coin as the image copyright is actually a completely different property from the coin.

That's an interesting thought. IF that happens to be the case it would be good to "attach" the rights of the photo to the current owner of the coin as it changes hands.

Honestly, I think only PCGS can do that as they own the copyright.

cardinal · September 6, 2018 12:14PM

I heard some time ago that Heritage has an equity interest in NGC. Could that be one of the factors in the decision?

messydesk · September 6, 2018 3:44PM

@BStrauss3 said:

@jmlanzaf said:
In other words, Heritage does not have the right to use truview images for commercial purposes?

PCGS defines your rights as:

What are the Terms of Use and who ‘owns' the image of the coin?
Note that PCGS retains the image rights to the coin and may use the imagery as we see fit. That said, you are free to use the TrueView images however you like. This may include online sales or Set Registry listings, personal photo albums, or the creation of wall art or other décor that feature your coins.

So either HA would have to license the images from PCGS or leverage your rights (include online sales). If you weren't the original purchaser of the TrueView you don't have even those rights.

The "deep linking" @messydesk shows has been the subject of lawsuits with different results in different jurisdictions.

When selling (potentially) internationally, you have to follow all the laws (which means the most restrictive) or maybe risk being banned in the EU, etc.

True. It would seem beneficial to both PCGS and Heritage for a licensing agreement to be established for this purpose. Heritage would get an additional set of pictures in their auctions, and PCGS would get a royalty. If Heritage has some stake in NGC, as cardinal indicates may be the case, then I guess that would stand in the way.

Zoins · September 6, 2018 5:46PM

PCGS links to and displays HA historical pricing so it seems something could be done with TrueViews if there was a desire.

Why doesn't Heritage use TrueViews when available?

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