Hunting for a 1921 Peace dollar
Yorkshireman
Posts: 4,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
I have begun my search in earnest for a well struck 1921 Peace dollar.
Please show us yours - bright white or toned. I have asked a favorite dealer to help me in the hunt.
I’d like to see as many as possible before hitting a show.
Yorkshireman,Obsessed collector of round, metallic pieces of history.Hunting for Latin American colonial portraits plus cool US & British coins.
2
Comments
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb, Ricko
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
Good luck. You have an ARMY of fellow seekers at this time.
I am going to look for a nice Peace Dollar as well in Dalton. Not specifically the 1921, just a really nice example. Do you know of any dealers that are scheduled to be there that specialize in them? I also plan to attend the Peace Dollar Vam program on Saturday. I'm guessing that will motivate my interest even more!
I hope you'll find the one soon @Yorkshireman .... this is the best one I like for the grade in relation to the price at that moment in OGH
Here is one (at top) that you can use for detail comparison. There are possibly 2 others that are equivalent although these have not been examined side-by-side.
Top is a 1921 I own. Bottom is a sandblast proof sold by Goldbergs about 15 years ago.
Pay special attention to fullness of date, inscriptions and rays, in addition to the usual central hair. My coin has slightly better detail throughout obverse rays than the medal press proof. (Offers for the top coin have been several times the present Heritage coin bid linked in AllCoinsRule's post.)
A suggestion is to ignore the TPG "grade" and look for maximum detail on obverse and reverse. The authentication companies do not seem to notice differences in detail even on the very highest "graded" 1921's.
And if your looking for an uncirculated specimen buy one that has blazing luster
if you can find one.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Some nice coins.
This one got me started on a circulated set.
INYNWHWeTrust-TexasNationals,ajaan,blu62vette
coinJP, Outhaul ,illini420,MICHAELDIXON, Fade to Black,epcjimi1,19Lyds,SNMAN,JerseyJoe, bigjpst, DMWJR , lordmarcovan, Weiss,Mfriday4962,UtahCoin,Downtown1974,pitboss,RichieURich,Bullsitter,JDsCoins,toyz4geo,jshaulis, mustanggt, SNMAN, MWallace, ms71, lordmarcovan
Notice also the cheek, neck and brow of Roger's specimen. Ain't that a peach.
RE: "And if your [sic] looking for an uncirculated specimen buy one that has blazing luster
if you can find one."
Probably does not exist. The best coins were made the first day, but resulted in many broken dies due to excess pressure (hence the better detail). Afterward, pressure was cut to extend die life and detail suffered. Luster develops as a die is used and on the first day, few, if any dies had time to "mature" before they failed.
Nice coins, RogerB!! I’d love to have one close to as nice as your example.
here is mine.
@RogerB is a big TEASE !!
The sandblast proof is not as "dramatic" looking to some - but that is because there are no strong reflections off the sandblasted surface.
As for the 1921 I posted - use the image for comparison purposes. The chance of finding one with anywhere close to the detail in all areas is extremely small....but possible. It's posted so that members can better know what to look for and make well informed decisions.
An ogh graded 64
And a bank
Yorkshireman - It would be great if you found a similar coin!
Here are a couple of mine. Looked high and low for good strikes. One is PCGS65 CAC, the other NGC62.
@RogerB....Your Peace Dollar is outstanding... what great detail.... I cannot imagine a better one....Cheers, RickO
Roger is your image a real coin ? Is it raw ? Is it a slider ? Image looks enhanced to me but please post more images if you can. Are you just teasing us because I'm gullible when it comes to coins.
Good point and explanation Roger. Knowledge of the different scenarios which could explain how and why a coin has (or does not have) a full strike are essential tools in this Hobby.
Pete
RE: "Roger is your image a real coin ? Is it raw ? Is it a slider ? Image looks enhanced to me but please post more images if you can. Are you just teasing us because I'm gullible when it comes to coins."
Real coin. Not in a slab and won't be put in one. Slabs dull the color, contrast and character of coins. Purchased about years ago at an outrageous price (well, back then). The lighting is axial with a small amount of fill to open the shadows and reduce harshness of strict axial lighting. The arc of blue to left of "1" (and 180 degrees) is a remnant of part of this fill-lighing being improperly color balanced.
I mean absolutely no disrespect to @RogerB who I believe has studied Peace Dollars. And I'm willing to accept that his example may be the ultimate peace dollar, and it may be to peace dollars what ultra high relief 1907s are to Saint Gaudens.
But I can't like his example. It's too puffy, too pouty. It doesn't look like 99.99% of peace dollars that I've seen in my 40+ years of collecting. Maybe it's the lighting. Or maybe it's just having seen wrong peace dollars all my life makes it hard to accept the right one. But it's just too far out of the norm to be what I like and what I'm comfortable with.
--Severian the Lame
That's OK. Axial lighting emphasizes relief and detail which differs from what we usually see in a coin. In a different way, sandblasting enhances detail but the coin looks flatter due to an absence of strong reflections. Sandblasting was in line with contemporary artists' preference for medallic art. If sandblasted my coin would appear similar to the one below it.
If members want to see some high quality realistic sculpture by artist Sabin Howard, much in the style of Robert Aitken, check out this link:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/a-wave-of-war-memorials-is-coming-to-dc-are-we-all-at-peace-with-that/2018/07/30/87980d18-794d-11e8-93cc-6d3beccdd7a3_story.html?utm_term=.c138703c997f
I too will be looking for one before too long. I am aiming for a PCGS 63 or 64. Good luck on your search.
My YouTube Channel
To restate a personal opinion.... If you are looking for a 1921 dollar with the best detail, then ignore any assigned "grade." --Detail first; grade last--
I agree with your Buffalo nickel statement. But, regardless of grade there are a number of date/Mint combos that are simply not known with a full strike. And not just the Branch Mint coins-the '29-P and '30-P are two Philly that come to mind.
Nuts, they exist. Over the years, I've seen/graded many dozen with EXCEPTIONAL blazing white original luster!
No disrespect here either @RogerB but the image of your coin makes it look "buffed." From that image, it should not straight grade. Inquiring minds want another image.
PS Note the patch of gray color in the middle of the left obverse field and the "puffy" rounded and smooth cheek. Nevertheless, if you say it is 100% original with the coin in hand, who can argue?
RE: "Nuts, they exist. Over the years, I've seen/graded many dozen with EXCEPTIONAL blazing white original luster!"
I agree, the comment is "nutz." The combination of exceptional luster and exceptional detail, might exist in imagination, but none have appeared in reality.
Since "insider2" boasts of seeing/grading dozens, he must know where some of them are and can produce photos of them. Otherwise.....
Post yours, Weiss.
It's one of my faves.
This is one I.....SOLD
Why? Because I thought it would be eeeeeaaassssyyyyy to top a 62.
Shoot me. PM your addy and I'll send you the bullets.
Or send me an official "Coin Dummy" application.
RE: "No disrespect here either @RogerB but the image of your coin makes it look "buffed." From that image, it should not straight grade. Inquiring minds want another image."
The coin surface is typical in appearance of the initial group of coins off a fresh die pair. As the dies are used, what collectors call "luster" develops. The first 100,000 1921s were struck in one day during which George Morgan complained about dies breaking (or shattering) so fast they got tired of replacing them. After a day off from general production, work was resumed a lower pressure. Dies lasted a lot longer and could develop luster, but detail was diminished.
As notes earlier, axial photography emphasizes detail. The details visible in the photo are present on the coin, as is the original surface. Given that so-called "grading" has no fixed point of reference, any "grade" assigned by anyone is as good as the next.
Recall the purpose of this thread?
"I have begun my search in earnest for a well struck 1921 Peace dollar.
Please show us yours."
The 1921 I posted was presented to give the OP a meaningful point of reference. This is important in a one-year type were most sellers have no concept of what a well-struck coin looks like. Also, where few seem to have the ability to open the Whitman book on the subject and look at the series of illustrations - including the original cast. Exaggeration is commonplace in describing 1921 Peace dollars.
We'd all love to see images of the "many dozen with EXCEPTIONAL blazing white original luster" the insider2 claims to have "graded."
PS: topstuf - attractive example. Nice coin.
You say Nutz is correct and I'll believe you. However, I'll continue to use NUTS as did the less educated (?) WW2 officer when he replied to the Germans. https://www.army.mil/article/92856/the_story_of_the_nuts_reply
As to the OP's question, (this is for those less informed on the boards) Strike and Luster are two different characteristics found on coins. Weakly struck, original, MS coins have full mint luster. It just looks differently that the fully struck mint luster on the rest of the coin.
1921 Peace dollars are notorious for some weakness. They do come with strong strikes as on your coin. A majority of the 1921 Peace dollars I get to see are not fully struck and very many of them are not original. Very many have a little friction on the high points also.
I can probably count the number of fully struck, fully original, blazing white 1921 Peace dollars on two hands. I suspect there are important dealers posting here who can triple that number. So, as I posted they DO EXIST.
My original disagreement to your statement was ONLY about 1921 coins with full blazing white original mint luster with no regard to their STRIKE. I was being modest when I posted several dozen for a figure.
@RogerB said: "Since "insider2" boasts of seeing/grading dozens, he must know where some of them are and can produce photos of them. Otherwise.....
"
I just grade them and send them on... I can't tell you where any of the coins I graded on Saturday are going and that was yesterday, not over the decades I've been grading.
Otherwise...Perhaps one of the major dealers or auction house employees posting on CU can change your opinion.
I made a complete statement about detail and luster, Insider2. Your comments made no separation hence my reply.
Yes, there are many 1921 Peace dollars with exceptional luster -- I agree completely, and never disagreed. But, minting conditions testify against any of them being extremely well struck.
The OP asked about "well struck" coins --- those are the really tough ones to find. Hence, my suggestion to look for detail first and grade last. Luster, schmuster - a 1921 with exceptional detail is a prize -- even if it were a real AU. (Sometime ago, a collector sent me a photo of a very nice EF 1921 that had outstanding detail - like the one I posted it had almost a medallic appearance. I hope astute collectors can appreciate that kind of quality and ultimately, value.)
I have settled my mind by considering the 1921 a stinkin' PATTERN.
The Peace Dollar series henceforth begins with 1922.
The coin you posted is a very nice coin. It looks like a Cleaned PROOF, First strike, or Specimen!
Thank you. If you are referring to the 62 I posted, you can forget the free bullets for shooting me.
I will have my own use for them now.
Where do you live?
Ahhhh...now that's how to finesse the problem!
In software development, a similar approach is sometimes used: redefine errors as "security features" and charge extra.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
RE: "It looks like a Cleaned PROOF, First strike, or Specimen!"
For future clarification, 1921 Peace dollars exist as: medal press satin and sandblasted proofs, and toggle press circulation strikes. There are no "specimen" pieces or other imaginary critters. (The possibility exists of several trial pieces made during the "day off" mentioned above, but we have no documentation or any way to distinguish them from other toggle press coins.)