1893 Quarter Eagle - Counterfeit or Not?
Connecticoin
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So I watched the Bill Fivaz video from FUN, and I have the Fivaz gold counterfeit detection book. So based on those, it seems the coin below is counterfeit, based on multiple depressions in the fields which do not appear to be contact marks. What do you think?
2
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I see absolutely nothing in the image that would make me think the coin is a C/F. What do you see?
It looks like a US mint product to me. Sharply struck, correct lettering, nice denticles, and a bit of a wire rim on the obverse.
From that picture, it looks legit. Can you show the luster a little better?
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Color looks off, but that is meaningless. Looks like a well struck MS QE.
Looks good to me !!!
The depressions that do not look like normal contact marks (circled in red) are supposedly counterfeit indicators. But I am a novice at this stuff so if someone can tell me why those depressions are ok that would enlighten me!
Not all depressions in fields are contact marks. They can also be caused by small strike through and or planchet flaws.
I see nothing that makes me suspicious. Send it in to our hosts and see what they say.
Ooh. By a 30-second look I'd say that's genuine.
My sense of depressions as a diagnostic is when they're repeating, that is found on more than one coin. A soft looking bagmark that looks like a copy of a real bagmark (e.g. mushy or ill-defined) might serve in the absence of a second example, but otherwise I don't think they're that useful in isolation.
That coin looks authentic to me... those circled marks appear to be normal contact impressions and not mushy ..... Cheers, RickO
Actually, depressions on a coin are very useful even if you only have one piece. Rather than post the reasons and what to look for right away, I'm going to ask that @CaptHenway, Mr. Carr, and Mr. Burdette do not reply either and let's see what members can come up with by thinking this out for themselves.
You only have one gold coin as above:
What would make/leave a depression (of any type) in a coin's surface? I can think of four things right off. Don't over think this question but many replies will be in one category and thus the same thing with a different appearance.
I don't expect anyone here to think of one of the causes so surprise me.
What would EACH depression look like?
Coin collectors occasionally get "the depressions," but it is only temporary for most.
Tis the season for these to get bad:
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/tropical-depression
I can think of
1- Strike-through (lint)
2- Planchet defect that did not strike out
3- Contact, aka bag marks
4- Post-mint scratch
Now we are rolling.
3 & 4. CONTACT MARK. Yes. That covers all PMD such as gouges, bagmarks, scratches, punches, etc.
Two more that will take some thought. Then we'll need to write about what each of these depressions looks like on the coin.
Lamination.
What about rusted dies?
I'll give you that one also BUT in order to be a valid depression, the lamination must be detached. We normally call any lamination by its proper term; however, a small- non-linear, depressed patch of metal from a detached lamination can look like a depression that resembles a strike thru.
@thefinn You're killing me. LOL. Making me think too much on this lazy afternoon.
You started it. I have a small mint at home - I make tokens and encased coins, as well as engrave dies. That gives me a bit more insight into "how things happen" and "how things are done."
Then you of all people should know the other two! : So finish it so we can continue. p
I don't want to hog it. I came up with one that you hadn't thought of. Throw out some hints.
BIG HINT: They are used in the minting process.
Machine oil or moisture? Peace Roy
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Diamond polishing compound for polishing the dies.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The US and other Mints utilize a specific steel with very specific heat treating methods and polishing for die preparation to avoid voids, orange peels and wavy looking fields in properly annealed planchets. It is an exacting science one the counterfeiters did not have up until the computer age, They are still not quite there yet but will achieve D. Carr status soon, that's when it's going to be really tough to tell the good from the bad.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
EDIT: OK. I just saw @thefinn mentioned die rust above.
Next cause for a depression on a coin is anything raised on the die such as a chunk of rust! I said not to overthink this.
I know of only ONE other thing that causes a depression on a coin and I'll be shocked if anyone gets it. I hope someone else comes up with something else I didn't think of.
STRIKE THRU
PLANCHET DEFECT
DIE RUST
DETACHED LAMINATION
One more to go! NO, I just THOUGHT OF ANOTHER EASY ONE. Additionally, stuff like oil, dirt, and grease is covered under "strike thru."
Two more to go. Question: What could be the causes of a depression on a coin. The one I just thought of has been alluded to in this thread already.
Entrapped air in the die steel.
OK, no one is interested except us.
This is what we have come up with so far.
What can cause a depression on a coin's surface?
STRIKE THRU
PLANCHET DEFECT
RAISED RUST ON A DIE
DETACHED LAMINATION
CONTACT MARKS TRANSFERRED FROM A GENUINE COIN
and the last thing is:
CONTACT MARKS OR ANY DEPRESSION ON THE HUB that made the dies. You can see one of these on $10 Indians in the "R" of "Liberty."
Any others we can think of before moving to what they each look like on an original surface?
The coin looks okay to me, but I would need to look at the depressions with a 10x glass if I were to use them as an authentication tool. As others have stated, not all depressions are from contact with other coins or objects.
Repeated, identical depressions in the same place are two or more coins can be a big red flag, but that only works if you have photos or multiple pieces to review.
@BillJones
Good to have you in this discussion. Can you think of anything else @thefinn and I left out?
No, I think you all have covered it.
Good. Now we'll move on to what they look like on a coin and how to tell the difference.
Until tomorrow...Who wants to describe the appearance of these on a fresh coin?
STRIKE THRU
PLANCHET DEFECT
RAISED RUST ON A DIE
DETACHED LAMINATION
CONTACT MARKS TRANSFERRED FROM A GENUINE COIN
CONTACT MARKS OR ANY DEPRESSION ON THE HUB
Hey @Insider2... I would like to alert you to the fact that your involvement in this thread demonstrates an abundance of empathy!!
You are sharing your knowledge and experience with others to help what you label "the ignorant" to authenticate coins. Fantastic. Now if you could only expand the scope of your ability to educate. Please read my post in the other thread where we were conversing about counterfeits. I made a suggestion to use YouTube to make a compilation of counterfeit detection videos. I think that you could make a great video as part of the series!
That's what I'm talking about my man!
BTW... What is the "hub"?
FOREIGN MATTER FALLING ON THE DIE
Foreign matter on the die is covered under "Strike Thru."
Go to Google and put in "Coin making hub."
Here is one. I'm going to watch it but it looks too modern for our vintage coins.
A hub is a "tool" that makes a die.
https://www.thesprucecrafts.com/what-is-a-coin-hub-768426
THIS IS BETTER
So the HUBS are used to make the dies. Thanks for the link. I love soaking up new information. I think that I'm become addicted to this forum. Is that a problem?
Oh sorry. I was confusing STRIKE THRU was DIE CLASH. DIE CLASH would not normally create the referenced type of marks on a coin... correct?
Great work, you've been holding out on us.
As a matter of fact a DIE CLASH WILL leave a depression on a coin's surface! I forgot all about that one.
However, I'm not going to include it (because I forgot all about it - LOL, only kidding
) as there is usually enough of the image left to ID the depressed area as a die clash.