Interesting article about counterfeits
YQQ
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please follow the link
http://www.coinsweekly.com/en/News/American-Eagles-most-counterfeited-bullion-coins-in-the-USA/4?&id=5518
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Interesting
Successful Trades: Swampboy,
Thanks for the heads up and the link. Everyone on this forum should read the article! It starts off listing the most frequently encountered counterfeit bullion, first silver then gold. The article then proceeds with the following information regarding U.S. coins:
"Among collectible classic U.S. coins, Morgan silver dollars at 71.7 percent led the list of most frequently encountered counterfeits, followed by Trade dollars, 66.6 percent; Seated Liberty dollars, 48.6 percent; Lincoln cents, 35.9 percent; Peace dollars, 33.1 percent; and Early American copper large cents and half cents, 29.7 percent."
As a moderate collector who took a ten year hiatus and has recently returned to the hobby, I have decided to become much more educated before spending any cash. There is so much more information readily available than there was in 2008. The more I learn, the more confused I become because I realize how much I will need to know, especially today, to be an informed buyer of coins and collector. I find it hard to determine where to focus. It has been six months, and I have yet to buy a coin!
I started with becoming more educated about the process of coin minting from the background of the die designers, through the whole fabrication process, to the distribution to the public. Then I focused on coin grading, followed by where and how to buy, then it became - I need to learn what I need to learn...
I realized that I love coin collecting because when I hold a Carson City Morgan Dollar in my hand I appreciate its beauty as an object, and imagine its history. For a mint state coin: how did you stay so pristine? For a circulated coin: whose pocket have you been in? Where did you get this mark? How far have you traveled?
To be honest, it's the romanticism that attracts me to the hobby and I guess makes it enjoyable for me... and it's articles like this that make me want to shy away. Do concerns about: counterfeiting (first coins, then holders, then coins in holders), dishonest sellers, questionable selling venues, "gradeflation", conflicts of interest, scandals, lack of oversight and control of fraud, etc., etc., keep me from becoming involved in the hobby again?... Or will I reach a point that I will feel confident collecting and enjoying the hobby without feeling like a fish swimming into a pool of sharks?
Sorry to go on so long, but I have read discussions on this forum for months and know that there is an incredible wealth of knowledge and experience here and have come to respect many of you based on your posts. I'd love to hear your thoughts and advice.
Paul
Thanks for sharing the information !!!
Yes, interesting article and definitely timely given the Worlds Fair of Money show coming up in Philadelphia. Peace Roy
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Great article.... Thanks for the link... and it stands as a sobering warning to collectors in today's market.... Cheers, RickO
Pawn/Coin shops should be empowered (maybe even required) to seize any counterfeit US coin they encounter. At least it would get some of them off the street.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
How many pawn shop owners are expert authenticators?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Won't work, for a few reasons:
1. If you seize the property of a customer, they don't come back.
2. If the person selling them thinks they are genuine, there's going to be a row. The police would be there every other day and twice on Saturdays.
3. And if the pawn shop owner is not a professional authenticator, what happens if they are wrong? The police also aren't authenticators, so who's going to pay to have a professional look at them? The Treasury would need to be funded to examine all of these coins in all of these jurisdictions...
We all can miss the State-of-the-Art stuff that even passes a TPGS (for a time) but that stuff is rarely encountered.
So, AFAIK, most of the stuff reported in the Task Force Survey is pure JUNK that should not fool most of you and for those who think this crude stuff is dangerous, you better take a class. I wish I could write more...:(
It is so refreshing to hear someone with an open mind coming into the hobby rather than Some Guy with a damaged parking lot penny who is convinced he owns the Big Bonanza! There is absolutely no shortcut or replacement for self-education, and you are absolutely doing the right things to further your enjoyment of this wonderful pastime.
I would just add a few thoughts: Don't let fear keep you from pursuing numismatics. There are still very few counterfeits in legit (NGC/PCGS/ANACS) slabs, and reputable dealers will stand behind their coins. Try to form a relationship with a dealer or two and see what kind of vibes you get. And find a focus, a series that speaks to you with all of that romanticism you speak so eloquently about. For some, it's the old coppers which have huge appeal but can be expensive when well-preserved. Many nice Morgan dollar issues are still relatively cheap even in high Mint State grades. Or maybe type will be your thing; I personally love all those odd (and even) denominations like 2c, 3c, half cents, 20c.
You will make some mistakes, but take your time and don't throw money away and your first mistakes will be inexpensive ones. Try to look at coins in person and form your own opinions. Practice covering up grades and guess grades for yourself. Not everyone in the hobby is a shark, but wear your flippers and you'll be OK. Good luck!
Kind regards,
George
Thanks @giorgio11! Your advice is extremely appreciated and feels like a big shot in the arm. I'll take it to heart and wade into the waters...
ALL of this garbage is dangerous, even the pieces that we think are easy to spot because it drags the whole hobby down. Thing of the novice who buys Morgan Dollars at flea market, only to learn that he has a collection of worthless counterfeits. The person he'll blame first will be the person who tells him he's got nothing, and that person will probably be a legitimate coin dealer.
LOL, Go join the crowd trying to protect the ignorant and the greedy. These are the folks that light farts, swim in the ocean at dusk, and dry their hair in the tub. There is no helping them and as we legislate more and more we lose our freedom and must collect beautiful hand engraved reproductions with "COPY" stamped into them.
I'm a member of the Atila-the Hun School of the earlier Centuries. I believe in "Natural Selection." Without it, the world has become a place for fools to thrive. Now we are trying to make everyone safe from the man-eating predators.
It does not work. History is on my side.
thanks for the link.
Thanks for the link. Unfortunately not surprising.
@Insider2 I respectfully disagree. Watch the "American Greed" series - season 11, episode 18..."Fraud Collectors", and see how the proliferation of counterfeit collectibles into the marketplace can ultimately result in the devaluation of EVERY collectable traded in that market and owned by collectors. It's not just the "mouth breathers" and "Darwin Award" winners who provide the market for the fraudsters, and will ultimately be elimated through natural selection. (Although I think that your philosophy is pretty hilarious.) If there is no trust or security in whatever you are buying in the collectables marketplace, the entire hobby is in jeopardy.
Thank you
for your respectful disagreement and your comments that back up your opinion 100%.
No one can argue that fakes cannot hurt the markets. Unfortunately, so do rumors. As a rookie authenticator I watched one of this countries foremost authorities on counterfeit detection (I named that evil man, "old-cracked eye") personally ruin the coin market for Pillar dollars and British Trade dollars! Thankfully, rather than put an ugly stamp on genuine coins to protect the ignorant, slabbing came along. Note that we now have very deceptive counterfeit slabs around. You see, there is no real solution. Counterfeiting is human nature. Fortunately, if I were not raised "right" and enjoyed catching the counterfeiters, I'd have been one of those crooks as seen on TV gleefully picking those pockets too! As I wrote, when empathy was being placed in our genes, they missed mine. BTW, you may have guessed by now that I am 1/2 Arab.
@Insider2 I love your sense of humor! I have followed your posts for months, so I have a sense of who you are, so I don't believe that you lack empathy. I just think that you have strong opinions and you stand up for what you believe. You tell it like it is (based on your beliefs) and some people take that as being harsh... I don't. That doesn't mean that you lack empathy.
).
Now in bold print in your post, did you mean to say "can" or "cant" in your comment?
My opinion is that there are numerous experienced collectors who can authenticate coins...(I have read their posts, and many of them reside right here in this forum) who can share their knowledge with the "ignorant" and reduce the tide of counterfeits. Especially with today's technology. I suggested on a thread about counterfeits that someone in this forum who knows how to produce and post videos on YouTube, create a series of videos on counterfeit detection where the numerous experts in this forum could each record a video where they share their experience. Something comprehensive like that does not exist... and it would be relatively easy to do.
Since you did not end up being a crook, I'll bet you could share your experience in a video and help "take a bite out of crime"! Now wouldn't that feel better than your Liaise Faire attitude? Or you could see it as being selfish because you are helping to protect your investment (since you have no empathy
BTW... I have never cared what nationally someone is... I grew up in L.A.
Correction... @Insider2 did you mean to say that "No one can argue that fakes don't hurt the market"?
Thanks! Correction made.
I'm both stupid and greedy. As a young, professional, I was once asked by a group of rich folks to buy truly Uncirculated coins for them for a large "cut." Stupid me nicely told them that might be a conflict of interest. I was once asked to join a major coin company. Stupid me replied that I was not in this for the money. The ANA asked me to write the Counterfeit Detection Correspondence Course. Greedy me saw that would cut into my personal teaching classes so I did a course on coin grading on my own. I've been asked to allow filming of my lectures at FUN and greedy me has always said no for the same reason. At one time, most of the stuff I taught was proprietary. Now, most of the things I teach are out there if you look. I still hold some things back for my book but one of my former students published a neat little book from my lectures already. When he happily showed me what he had done and I saw what it was I wanted to wring his neck! I'm the one who he copied and good for him. I don't remember the name of that book so I'll recommend Jason Poe's book on grading as It covers the subject very well.
Bottom line, I teach groups and individuals authentication and grading. That's why I will not participate in a video. Besides, there are many already done on coin grading. PCGS has an entire group on the Internet. Authentication leaves a lot to be desired.
PS I posted my ethnicity so folks could better understand my comments and views on "punishment." LOL
Good article.
@Insider2 First... please don't chop off a body part of mine for confusing die clash with strike through on the other thread.
I have watched the PCGS grading video series but from my recollection there is only one video on counterfeit detection and it focuses mainly on detection using known counterfeiting defects and errors. This is not helpful in the larger arena of today's market and against the sophistication of today's counterfeiters. I have learned more on a few threads in this forum than all of the videos I have watched.
So you are writing a book? Perfect! When will it be published?
I'm no YouTube expert, but from what I know, if you add advertising content to your videos, you can sit back and watch the $$s roll in after exerting a one time effort. Take a look at what is currently available and it's not impressive. You could become the top dog YouTube coin guy! I subscribe to a couple of Youtuber's feeds, and I know that they rake in tens of thousands of dollars monthly.
What part of the country do you live in, and where and how often do you do your courses?
(being new to the forum, I don't know if this type of interaction is more appropriate in a PM. I just learned what PM means, but have never used the option. Please advise)
@Insider2 thanks for the book recommendation. It's titled The Art and Science of Grading Coins. I got the Kindle version for free with my subscription, and I scanned through it and it looks like it's exactly what I'm looking for. I already own The Official ANA Grading Standards for U.S. coins and printed and posted the grading summary pages on my hobby cubby wall. Your recommendation looks more riveting and appropriate to me.
Do you have any recommendations for sources of information related to counterfeiting that are current and relevant to today's counterfeiting issues?
Someone please send Godzilla to those counterfeit factories. Fake coins bad enough. Fake slabs is international violation of ethics.
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At this time IMHO, there is not a GREAT book on counterfeit detection. One of the problems is the landscape continues to change and much of the info is obsolete. However, for a beginner, there are several basic books to read. PCGS has one (I forgot the title but have both editions) about grading and authentication. The ANA has a correspondence course, and Bill Fivaz wrote a book. The two books written before these are not very useful. There is also a lot of info on the Internet. Both the ANA and myself (there may be others) give group classes around the country.
In the case of antique TOYS, the entire market was collapsed by reproductions. Not fakes.
what is the difference between a reproduction and a fake concerning the coin market?
perhaps reproductions were legally made after the patent expired?
Interesting! Were the reproductions not discernable as not original or was there deception involved?