Will CAC on US coins drive more into darkside?

topstuf · July 9, 2018 3:31PM

Is foreign the "last bastion" of real collecting?

coinkat · July 9, 2018 4:27PM

Seems you have a couple of questions here... The final frontier for US coinage is die varieties. Even the effort to bring that to the mainstream is like pulling teeth. There are terrific US coins to discover and have fun with. And I suppose the problem with part of this is there is not enough of these in quantity to promote... So they are ignored which is disappointing.

As for CAC and the impact it may have with collectors moving more towards World coins... On the surface, that seems plausible, but I think the art, history and design of world coins combined with current valuations in many countries... Not all countries... Is enough of a reason to develop a global perspective.

I do think at some point reason will return to the US market in terms of what is CAC worthy and what is not. It has been over subscribed in connection with lower valued coins that do not have big spreads or the assigned grade is just not in controversy to the degree a CAC endorsement is required.

I did not vote yet. I would suggest that over time more collectors will look to coins of the world for reasons that are more compelling than the unwillingness to have the CAC mentality dictate valuations. The holder and sticker do not trump the appeal of the actual coin in terms of what is and what is not quality for the grade. Not all coins at the same grade level are created equal regardless of TPG or whether there is a sticker.

ShadyDave · July 9, 2018 6:01PM

I like world coins regardless of CAC. Many are cheaper, have lower mintages and there is pretty much an endless number of beautiful, historical designs.

I think world coins have a better chance of maintaining their value or growing in value compared to US coins. US coins are a mature market and I think the prices are what will move collectors who collect US coins to other world coins.

291fifth · July 9, 2018 10:52PM

"Stickers" are essentially just another expense and added expenses will drive some collectors away from US coins and into world coins. The number of collectors involved will be limited.

BillJones · July 10, 2018 7:51AM

I moved to collecting one coin for each British king or queen because I find the British history interesting and very informative. It shows why our founding fathers placed certain provisos in our Constitution. I have also had a strong interest in tokens and medals as well for a very long time.

CAC has prompted me to pull back from the U.S. coin market to a considerable degree. First, I don’t think that it is healthy to give one man so much control over the U.S. coin market. Second, I have been very disappointed with the quality of the CAC opinions. Too many of the coins that it has approved, in my main areas of interest, have fallen short of my grading standards. Yet, there is a small, but vocal group, who push the narrative that coins without CAC stickers are defective or fall short of the assigned grades. At the same time, they claim that all coins with CAC stickers are properly graded and deserving of a premium price. I have not found that to be the case.

BillDugan1959 · July 10, 2018 8:03AM

If people aren't interested in History, then they will have no way of "connecting" to the coins, whether U.S. or foreign.

If you don't view coins as historical artifacts, well, then coins is just a pricey game of "screw your buddy". The goal of that game is to accumulate more spending money, coins are just an intermediate vehicle - a "means", not an "ends".

BillJones · July 10, 2018 9:27AM

I could not have said it better, BillDugan.

Maximizing one's profits are the basis for far more posts here rather that the historical and economic aspects of coins.

topstuf · July 10, 2018 10:08AM

@BillDugan1959 said:
If people aren't interested in History, then they will have no way of "connecting" to the coins, whether U.S. or foreign.

If you don't view coins as historical artifacts, well, then coins is just a pricey game of "screw your buddy". The goal of that game is to accumulate more spending money, coins are just an intermediate vehicle - a "means", not an "ends".

Also known as "potential inheritance." We is a dyin breed.

Nap · July 10, 2018 10:10AM

Can’t even hide from CAC threads on the dark side- they follow you!!

CAC is widely accepted on the US side and most people do like it. It has indeed changed the market for high end coins.

But I don’t think that even those who don’t like it run from US numismatics. It is a different appeal, a different kind of enthusiasm.

If you want the last bastion of raw US collecting, start collecting early large cents and watch the EAC folks crack out their chain cents.

But keep foreign and ancient coins a consideration, there’s much fun to be had with them.

Look at the serious collectors that branch into world coins at some point- Norweb, Newman, Garrett, Eliasberg, etc. There are just so many directions you can go, there are new things to discover and tremendous relative value compared with what you accomplish with the same money in US coins.

bigmarty58 · July 10, 2018 10:23AM

As a newbie in the World and Ancient Coin Forum the art, history and design of British Pre-Decimal coins has re energized me as a coin collector. The US side in the past few years left me feeling anxious and frustrated.

bidask · July 10, 2018 4:30PM

I think you know that the darkside has its stickers too.

http://wingscoins.com/about-wings-coins/

Lance Tchor is an excellent grader.

But not the same market acceptance as CAC thus far.

Elmhurst · July 10, 2018 5:10PM

I think it's been slowly going in this direction for some time now; not sure why CAC would have anything to do with it .

thisistheshow · July 10, 2018 8:15PM

There are a lot of very interesting and thought-provoking opinions in this thread. And I did not know about "wings" stickers........

BillJones · July 11, 2018 6:07PM

I have one wings coin, a George V sovereign in MS-65. It is a really outstanding coin for the MS-65 grade that drew some favorable comments from the other dealers.

EVillageProwler · July 11, 2018 6:31PM

I left the light side before the CAC craze. In fact, I left the light side even before "+" grading. So, to me, there is no correlation between appreciating dark side and leaving a CAC-driven light side.

And, IMO, appreciating a coin based on its own merits is much more important than appreciating a coin based on what an insert, or sticker, says. In the dark side, it is important to be able to assess the quality of a coin regardless of its holder characteristics. There are so many dark side coins that are superb that do not need any plastic, insert or sticker for us to know it is superb. And for the coins of marginal quality, like a super rare underweight Charles I half crown or overweight half pound, does it really matter if we argue it is high-end or low-end by US TPG standards, or even if it had been lightly cleaned long ago?

EVP

Boosibri · July 12, 2018 11:14AM

I am so sick of CAC threads...

I have gravitated to the darkside as I don't have the depth of pockets needed to participate meaningfully on coins I actually like on the US side anymore. I'd like to build a meaningful collection, I can do that on the dark side with higher grade and more rare coins than on the lite side though I have generally followed US related collecting themes, world coins which circulated in early America as an example.

bidask · July 12, 2018 12:53PM

I have been buying foreign coins at least a decade before CAC came into existence.

3stars · July 12, 2018 4:16PM

Moved from US to British and Irish coinage - way more interesting with no hundred+ year designs (paging Mr Lincoln...)

coinkat · July 12, 2018 4:32PM

World coins.... Not foreign coins

Bob13 · July 12, 2018 5:26PM

For all the reasons above, I now enjoy collecting Dark Side material more than US. CAC was never part of that equation.

In fact, I think CAC is one person's attempt to address one problem (inconsistent grading) when collecting US coins. It's too bad it drives people nuts.

I'm like Boosibri - I feel like I can get a beautiful historic coin for a fraction of a similar US coin.

MrEureka · July 12, 2018 7:53PM

I still don't understand how some people have a problem with CAC and don't have almost exactly the same problem with PCGS and NGC. Either you want someone else to judge your coins, or you don't.

EVillageProwler · July 12, 2018 9:05PM

@MrEureka said:
I still don't understand how some people have a problem with CAC and don't have almost exactly the same problem with PCGS and NGC. Either you want someone else to judge your coins, or you don't.

You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink.

BillDugan1959 · July 13, 2018 10:39AM

Once I go past a certain price point, I want the TPG to authenticate my coins. Many fakes have gotten incredibly good and I want one of the top two TPGs to give me a thumbs up or thumbs down on that. When buying, I still make the decision on grade and overall desirability.

One can separate the top two TPGs from the green sticker issue.

coinkat · July 13, 2018 4:02PM

Mr. E

CAC really is judging NGC and PCGS and whether the coin is a coin that meets or exceeds the opined grade. And to take it to the next level, it's about whether CAC would have an interest in buying the coin. The bigger problem is that too many coins that really don't need CAC get to CAC that have created a false expectation and demand at a level for which CAC was really never intended to be a player or even have an influence in connection with the market for such coins. Sad... Feel free to disagree but an expectation was created that was never needed to begin with.

MrEureka · July 16, 2018 12:08AM

@coinkat said:
Mr. E

CAC really is judging NGC and PCGS and whether the coin is a coin that meets or exceeds the opined grade. And to take it to the next level, it's about whether CAC would have an interest in buying the coin. The bigger problem is that too many coins that really don't need CAC get to CAC that have created a false expectation and demand at a level for which CAC was really never intended to be a player or even have an influence in connection with the market for such coins. Sad... Feel free to disagree but an expectation was created that was never needed to begin with.

If you’re talking about coin under roughly $1000, I agree . Overgrading isn't as much of a problem for those coins because They’re not usually worth doctoring and/or upgrading. Of course all CAC has to do is charge higher fees and the “problem” will diminish.

Kkathyl · July 16, 2018 1:13AM

Not sure it matters to me.

coinkat · July 16, 2018 10:20AM

Mr. E

We are on the same page...

Will CAC on US coins drive more into darkside?

Will CAC on US coins drive more into darkside?

Will CAC on US coins drive more into darkside? 30 votes

Comments