@RogerB said:
No. Grading should be consistent, thus obviating any need for an "expiry date."
What should be and what is are two different things...
IMO, grading is as consistent as humanly possible. Unfortunately, as soon as strict "technical grading" that did not change at all over time (if the coin remained in the same condition as when first graded) became "bastardized" by the ANA in CO and rejected by the commercial market, a change in standards took place. These market acceptable standards have continued to become lose with each passing decade. The results are easily seen as formerly XF rare coins became MS. At the same time, more common coins formerly graded AU have become MS.
Just a date would work for me. I know we all have seeing it a cert that says RD and the coin is BN now but they are still trying to get red price for it. If it had a date you could say it's not in date any more or needs to be recertified to put it in my set then you will get true grading on copper every 10 years like across the street. But how are you to know right off hand if there is no date. I know you can run the cert but they will be packing it up if I look up every cert. Man there will be some stale certs in some cases I bet.
@Insider2 said: @BAJJERFAN said: "Why? It's more important who graded it than what day it was graded. If I gave you a different ms63 1883-O Morgan to grade every day would you always grade it a 63?"
The less info that appears on the slab, the better. Additionally, less chance to make an error such as an incorrect attribution. As to dates and graders. See previous sentence. There is already an "inside" group that monitors who is grading at a show away from the office and who is still in the office. Would you rather have a PCGS slab with DH as the finalizer or one of the others. And please don't give me the BS about it does not matter as you are an expert grader and buy the coin not the slab. I'll bet the DH slab would bring more money. Then we are adding another layer to the slab just as CAC does.
As for grading MS-63's the same all the same. That's what finalizers are for. They try to hold the "standard." The problem come with the "liners." They may change. Now, graders are human. I have had the experience of grading a coin - let's say MS-64 - on one day and while doing the QC a few days later and seeing the coin in a slab I think: "Who is the idiot that graded this coin MS-64." Then, I look up everyone's opinion and see I was the first one on the box and everyone agreed with my grade.
Another thing I wish were possible. If every coin that came in was "marked" to ID the submitter and then every type (Peace dollar) could be spread in a line so the graders could them around, ranking them by grade. The results would be more precise and accurate than if a group of graders each graded them individually.
Bottom line. An opinion of a coin's grade can change within a short time.
Doing that virtually put ANACS out of business when it was part of the ANA in the early 1980s. Soon there were ads for "old" and "new" ANACS papers with huge discounts for documents with older dates because those pieces were graded using less rigorous standard. Not long after the ANACS brand name became a second tier grading service.
I disagree, what hurt ANACS and put INSAB, NCI, and many others out of business in the 1980's was PCGS and NGC. They graded coins to a different standard.
There was another misstatement made above. While the grading standards have changed - it does not happen weekly>
A few years ago I asked the question here if people would pay more to have their coins at PCGS personally graded by DH and IIRC most said that they would not.
Doing that virtually put ANACS out of business when it was part of the ANA in the early 1980s. Soon there were ads for "old" and "new" ANACS papers with huge discounts for documents with older dates because those pieces were graded using less rigorous standard. Not long after the ANACS brand name became a second tier grading service.
Bill, during the time I was there grading (1979-1984) we were pretty darn consistent. However, during that time the market went from insanely manic with massive gradeflation (1979-1981) to clinically depressed with massive undergrading (1981-on).
The dealers, who did not want to admit that they had screwed the hell out of everybody with their grading during the 1979-1981 period, blamed us for undergrading during the first period and overgrading during the second period.
This is one reason why the early PCGS slabs are so desirable, because they were graded during the downside of the market's manic-depressive cycle.
You may quote me.
Tom DeLorey
I remember the ads in "Coin World." What I wrote was what happened. As to the quality of the grading, I can't speak to because I just bought coins; I did not monitor grading service standards.
I would like to see those ads, to see who posted them, when they appeared, and whether those people had any vested interest in PCGS starting in 1986, or later NGC.
I do know that even before I left ANACS in 1984 there were various dealers publishing disinformation about ANACS because we interfered with the way that THEY did business. Heck, some of them started lying about us in 1979!
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Also won the PNG's Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
Doing that virtually put ANACS out of business when it was part of the ANA in the early 1980s. Soon there were ads for "old" and "new" ANACS papers with huge discounts for documents with older dates because those pieces were graded using less rigorous standard. Not long after the ANACS brand name became a second tier grading service.
Bill, during the time I was there grading (1979-1984) we were pretty darn consistent. However, during that time the market went from insanely manic with massive gradeflation (1979-1981) to clinically depressed with massive undergrading (1981-on).
The dealers, who did not want to admit that they had screwed the hell out of everybody with their grading during the 1979-1981 period, blamed us for undergrading during the first period and overgrading during the second period.
This is one reason why the early PCGS slabs are so desirable, because they were graded during the downside of the market's manic-depressive cycle.
You may quote me.
Tom DeLorey
Re the early PCGS slabs, yes and no. Some of the coins in early PCGS slabs were technically graded coins which at various levels of Unc., would not cut it today because a lack of strong eye appeal. Secondly, some of the early copper with 5-10% original RD would be in RB holders. Sometime in the late 1990s, the standard for RB appeared to be quietly changed to at least 20% RD, where I believe it still is today.
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Change what is defective. Do not further contribute to confusion and misinformation by adding date-graded to slabs. The overall "organization" it too weak and imprecise for this proposal to do anything more than further obfuscate. Soon, we would be into "VAM-like" territory: an absurd mess of layer upon layer of inconsequential detail and assumption.
@RogerB said:
Change what is defective. Do not further contribute to confusion and misinformation by adding date-graded to slabs. The overall "organization" it too weak and imprecise for this proposal to do anything more than further obfuscate. Soon, we would be into "VAM-like" territory: an absurd mess of layer upon layer of inconsequential detail and assumption.
Yes, but it would help give the plastic collectors more to collect.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I don’t necessarily think it needs to be on the slab, but perhaps the date graded available on the NGC/PCGS Cert lookup webpage would be nice. Besides the 10 year copper guarantee time limit ATS, it may be useful tracing history of a coin at times as well.
@BAJJERFAN said: "A few years ago I asked the question here if people would pay more to have their coins at PCGS personally graded by DH and IIRC most said that they would not."
I stand corrected but don't believe it. A lot of folks pay to have JA "grade" their coins.
@Insider2 said:
Another thing I wish were possible. If every coin that came in was "marked" to ID the submitter and then every type (Peace dollar) could be spread in a line so the graders could them around, ranking them by grade. The results would be more precise and accurate than if a group of graders each graded them individually.
>
You missed the thread I created with a similar theme? I argued it should be public though. It wasn't very popular.
@Insider2 said: @BAJJERFAN said: "A few years ago I asked the question here if people would pay more to have their coins at PCGS personally graded by DH and IIRC most said that they would not."
I stand corrected but don't believe it. A lot of folks pay to have JA "grade" their coins.
Go ahead and search for it, but it's my recollection that most here would not have paid for DH's service.
Can we have a meeting of the minds that TPG falls within the scope of an appraisal service by offering an opinion as to the state of preservatIon of coins which in turn is instrumental in determining value?
And if we have a meeting of the minds on that point, let's advance to what usually is included as part of an appraisal... Especially a written appraisal. Most if not all written appraisals will have a date in which the appraisal services were rendered.
Maybe something as simple as having a dated graded may go along way to battle the subject of gradeflation on several levels. Seems to be a reasonable idea to complete the service which is sought as well as help frame and limit the ongoing gradeflation debate. But then again... It seems collectors enjoy complaining.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
the year would be good to reference it back for study...
@Type2 said:
Just a date would work for me. I know we all have seeing it a cert that says RD and the coin is BN now but they are still trying to get red price for it. If it had a date you could say it's not in date any more or needs to be recertified to put it in my set then you will get true grading on copper every 10 years like across the street. But how are you to know right off hand if there is no date. I know you can run the cert but they will be packing it up if I look up every cert. Man there will be some stale certs in some cases I bet.
@Type2 said:
Just a date would work for me. I know we all have seeing it a cert that says RD and the coin is BN now but they are still trying to get red price for it. If it had a date you could say it's not in date any more or needs to be recertified to put it in my set then you will get true grading on copper every 10 years like across the street. But how are you to know right off hand if there is no date. I know you can run the cert but they will be packing it up if I look up every cert. Man there will be some stale certs in some cases I bet.
If PCGS grades a coin ms65 RED then IMO it would behoove them to put it into an airtight slab to preserve the red designation.
"I disagree, what hurt ANACS and put INSAB, NCI, and many others out of business in the 1980's was PCGS and NGC. They graded coins to a different standard."
I will agree with that. It is like people voting for whoever is going to promise them the most free stuff. If PCGS and NGC were grading coins a half grade higher than ANACS and NCI, then they would get the business because the subscribers would make more profit - why wouldn't you send your coins to someone that thought they were better and more valuable? Then after the former heavy-hitters were hurting or out of business, you can tighten up.
Comments
No. Grading should be consistent, thus obviating any need for an "expiry date."
What should be and what is are two different things...
IMO, grading is as consistent as humanly possible. Unfortunately, as soon as strict "technical grading" that did not change at all over time (if the coin remained in the same condition as when first graded) became "bastardized" by the ANA in CO and rejected by the commercial market, a change in standards took place. These market acceptable standards have continued to become lose with each passing decade. The results are easily seen as formerly XF rare coins became MS. At the same time, more common coins formerly graded AU have become MS.
Just a date would work for me. I know we all have seeing it a cert that says RD and the coin is BN now but they are still trying to get red price for it. If it had a date you could say it's not in date any more or needs to be recertified to put it in my set then you will get true grading on copper every 10 years like across the street. But how are you to know right off hand if there is no date. I know you can run the cert but they will be packing it up if I look up every cert. Man there will be some stale certs in some cases I bet.
Hoard the keys.
A few years ago I asked the question here if people would pay more to have their coins at PCGS personally graded by DH and IIRC most said that they would not.
I would like to see those ads, to see who posted them, when they appeared, and whether those people had any vested interest in PCGS starting in 1986, or later NGC.
I do know that even before I left ANACS in 1984 there were various dealers publishing disinformation about ANACS because we interfered with the way that THEY did business. Heck, some of them started lying about us in 1979!
Re the early PCGS slabs, yes and no. Some of the coins in early PCGS slabs were technically graded coins which at various levels of Unc., would not cut it today because a lack of strong eye appeal. Secondly, some of the early copper with 5-10% original RD would be in RB holders. Sometime in the late 1990s, the standard for RB appeared to be quietly changed to at least 20% RD, where I believe it still is today.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
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Change what is defective. Do not further contribute to confusion and misinformation by adding date-graded to slabs. The overall "organization" it too weak and imprecise for this proposal to do anything more than further obfuscate. Soon, we would be into "VAM-like" territory: an absurd mess of layer upon layer of inconsequential detail and assumption.
Yes, but it would help give the plastic collectors more to collect.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I don’t necessarily think it needs to be on the slab, but perhaps the date graded available on the NGC/PCGS Cert lookup webpage would be nice. Besides the 10 year copper guarantee time limit ATS, it may be useful tracing history of a coin at times as well.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
@BAJJERFAN said: "A few years ago I asked the question here if people would pay more to have their coins at PCGS personally graded by DH and IIRC most said that they would not."
I stand corrected but don't believe it. A lot of folks pay to have JA "grade" their coins.
It would be nice to have these for dealers.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Im more worried about My own expiration date!
>
You missed the thread I created with a similar theme?
I argued it should be public though. 
It wasn't very popular.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1002017/should-pcgs-and-ngc-disclose-the-id-of-a-submitter-on-a-slab-like-old-anacs#latest
Go ahead and search for it, but it's my recollection that most here would not have paid for DH's service.
HAHA, no.
Can we have a meeting of the minds that TPG falls within the scope of an appraisal service by offering an opinion as to the state of preservatIon of coins which in turn is instrumental in determining value?
And if we have a meeting of the minds on that point, let's advance to what usually is included as part of an appraisal... Especially a written appraisal. Most if not all written appraisals will have a date in which the appraisal services were rendered.
Maybe something as simple as having a dated graded may go along way to battle the subject of gradeflation on several levels. Seems to be a reasonable idea to complete the service which is sought as well as help frame and limit the ongoing gradeflation debate. But then again... It seems collectors enjoy complaining.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
An expiration date would greatly increase TPG revenues.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
If PCGS grades a coin ms65 RED then IMO it would behoove them to put it into an airtight slab to preserve the red designation.
"I disagree, what hurt ANACS and put INSAB, NCI, and many others out of business in the 1980's was PCGS and NGC. They graded coins to a different standard."
I will agree with that. It is like people voting for whoever is going to promise them the most free stuff. If PCGS and NGC were grading coins a half grade higher than ANACS and NCI, then they would get the business because the subscribers would make more profit - why wouldn't you send your coins to someone that thought they were better and more valuable? Then after the former heavy-hitters were hurting or out of business, you can tighten up.
Whew, alot of replies, I have to admit I only read about 1/2 of them, so if somebody else has said it, my bad.
Expiration dates- No.
Copper going to "not red". I get it, stable old slabs in a well stored environment should be good enough.
Buy the coin, not label as always!
The slabs themselves give you an excellent time frame of when the coin was graded.
The 6 digit anacs has been good for me for upgrades...there are lots of others. There are treasures to be found.
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