Should slabs have expiration dates printed on them?

cameonut2011 · July 11, 2018 12:44AM

Over the last few weeks we have discussed, in various forms, the effects of grade inflation on this hobby and how grading continues to change. Since grades change and apparently this has now gained main stream acceptance, should we at least put expiration dates on the slab like bread so buyers know to apply newer standards?

COCollector · July 11, 2018 12:57AM

Expiration date? No.

But I'd like to see the date it was graded.

Timbuk3 · July 11, 2018 1:38AM

!!!

coinkat · July 11, 2018 2:58AM

In some ways a date graded makes sense but it seems that could create a basis to challenge an opinion at a later date which would then seem to defeat the purpose of getting coins graded in the first place. Grading remains an opinion... Some opinions are better than others. I suppose the question is does the date graded add value to the opinion? Reasonable minds can differ but I believe it would add value so I would support the concept and let the chips fall where they may...

I would not favor an expiration date. There does seem to be an arbitrary component as to what the date should be and should that date be the same among all coins. An expiration date does not instill confidence in the Opinion or the product in general.

Azurescens · July 11, 2018 3:27AM

I ate a Lincoln cent in 1985. Worst food poisoning ever. If only an expiration date came with it.

I agree with @coinkat People already argue over generously beaned CAC coins or "overgraded" and "undergraded". No need to make it more complicated. PCGS does a fine job a vast majority of the time, occasionally making the one in ten thousand error.

I don't think the conversation needs to go beyond that, as dated grades will be "back before so and so retired" or "graded when so and so was will alive". It would sully the names of retirees and graders who have passed by making a coin worth more or less, even though it may not have even been graded by that person.

1630Boston · July 11, 2018 3:35AM

How about a **microchip controlled nano cylinder of sulfur ** impregnated in the plastic that will 'A'T' the coin after it has been resubmitted 10 times for regrading

mt_msla · July 11, 2018 4:06AM

.

keets · July 11, 2018 4:17AM

this is getting stupidly ridiculous.

NGS428 · July 11, 2018 5:31AM

Quick, I need to sell my slab before it expires!

CaptHenway · July 11, 2018 5:42AM

@COCollector said:
Expiration date? No.

But I'd like to see the date it was graded.

When I was at ANACS we were not ashamed to put an issue date on our certificates.

BAJJERFAN · July 11, 2018 5:47AM

@COCollector said:
Expiration date? No.

But I'd like to see the date it was graded.

Why? It's more important who graded it than what day it was graded. If I gave you a different ms63 1883-O Morgan to grade every day would you always grade it a 63?

DNADave · July 11, 2018 5:53AM

@BAJJERFAN said:

@COCollector said:
Expiration date? No.

But I'd like to see the date it was graded.

Why? It's more important who graded it than what day it was graded. If I gave you a different ms63 1883-O Morgan to grade every day would you always grade it a 63?

Because of larger trends in grading standards. A date would help identify the "loose" or "tight" grading trends the same way we view small ANACS slabs, Green PCGS, and NGC Soap bars as more likely to be accurate.

DNADave · July 11, 2018 5:57AM

Give one thousand Morgans to a grader 10 years ago and have them put the coins in order from lowest to highest grade. Then have them divide the coins into bins of grades. In 10 years do it again. The order would be different, the bins of grades would be in different locations of the order.

Sonorandesertrat · July 11, 2018 5:58AM

Since we're talking about expiration dates....
I'd like to know how long a coin has been in a dealer's inventory,
Regarding 'trends' in grading standards....There are no real standards---the system in place is what the market will bear.

messydesk · July 11, 2018 5:58AM

Once some mint starts making coins out of cheese, expiration dates would be a good idea.

BillJones · July 11, 2018 6:13AM

@COCollector said:
Expiration date? No.

But I'd like to see the date it was graded.

Doing that virtually put ANACS out of business when it was part of the ANA in the early 1980s. Soon there were ads for "old" and "new" ANACS papers with huge discounts for documents with older dates because those pieces were graded using less rigorous standard. Not long after the ANACS brand name became a second tier grading service.

Nap · July 11, 2018 6:22AM

If the plastic ring inside turns yellow, it’s rotten. Don’t eat it.

Smudge · July 11, 2018 6:25AM

@COCollector said:
Expiration date? No.

But I'd like to see the date it was graded.

+1

CaptHenway · July 11, 2018 6:26AM

@BillJones said:

@COCollector said:
Expiration date? No.

But I'd like to see the date it was graded.

Doing that virtually put ANACS out of business when it was part of the ANA in the early 1980s. Soon there were ads for "old" and "new" ANACS papers with huge discounts for documents with older dates because those pieces were graded using less rigorous standard. Not long after the ANACS brand name became a second tier grading service.

Bill, during the time I was there grading (1979-1984) we were pretty darn consistent. However, during that time the market went from insanely manic with massive gradeflation (1979-1981) to clinically depressed with massive undergrading (1981-on).

The dealers, who did not want to admit that they had screwed the hell out of everybody with their grading during the 1979-1981 period, blamed us for undergrading during the first period and overgrading during the second period.

This is one reason why the early PCGS slabs are so desirable, because they were graded during the downside of the market's manic-depressive cycle.

You may quote me.

Tom DeLorey

ricko · July 11, 2018 6:34AM

Every time I see the term 'standards' used in conjunction with 'grading', I laugh. Get back to basics and learn to evaluate the coin yourself. In fact, the real value of a TPG slab is found in authentication.... and even that area has produced errors. The subjectivity of grading will continue until true standards are developed and grading is computerized. Until then, it is up to the individual to judge the coin...slabs are a crutch for the collector without skills. Cheers, RickO

cameonut2011 · July 11, 2018 6:36AM

@keets said:
this is getting stupidly ridiculous.

My post was meant as a genuine question and not a troll post. My comments were in response to a current grader who has stated that standards have changed and will continue to change. Wouldn't it make sense for buyers to know not to rely too heavily on the old label and to re-evaluate under newer standards?

1630Boston · July 11, 2018 6:39AM

This slab will self destruct in 10 seconds
https://youtu.be/wGNCNMf8SWw

cameonut2011 · July 11, 2018 6:42AM

What about for NGC slabs where the copper guarantee is capped at 10 years? Wouldn't it make sense to print the date on the slab?

BillJones · July 11, 2018 6:44AM

@CaptHenway said:

@BillJones said:

@COCollector said:
Expiration date? No.

But I'd like to see the date it was graded.

Doing that virtually put ANACS out of business when it was part of the ANA in the early 1980s. Soon there were ads for "old" and "new" ANACS papers with huge discounts for documents with older dates because those pieces were graded using less rigorous standard. Not long after the ANACS brand name became a second tier grading service.

Bill, during the time I was there grading (1979-1984) we were pretty darn consistent. However, during that time the market went from insanely manic with massive gradeflation (1979-1981) to clinically depressed with massive undergrading (1981-on).

The dealers, who did not want to admit that they had screwed the hell out of everybody with their grading during the 1979-1981 period, blamed us for undergrading during the first period and overgrading during the second period.

This is one reason why the early PCGS slabs are so desirable, because they were graded during the downside of the market's manic-depressive cycle.

You may quote me.

Tom DeLorey

I remember the ads in "Coin World." What I wrote was what happened. As to the quality of the grading, I can't speak to because I just bought coins; I did not monitor grading service standards.

jwitten · July 11, 2018 6:48AM

I can see it now: A family member inherits a large valuable collection. All of the slabs have expired, so the family member thinks they must be no good anymore, and throws them away.

BIGAL2749 · July 11, 2018 7:44AM

" the real value of a TPG slab is found in authentication"

I'd add discovery of problems such as cleaning, artificial toning, damage etc.

Grading is trying to hit a moving target and the target is always changing.
On top of that the targets are different for each series.

jmlanzaf · July 11, 2018 8:11AM

@cameonut2011 said:

@keets said:
this is getting stupidly ridiculous.

My post was meant as a genuine question and not a troll post. My comments were in response to a current grader who has stated that standards have changed and will continue to change. Wouldn't it make sense for buyers to know not to rely too heavily on the old label and to re-evaluate under newer standards?

A date of grading might make sense, from a business standpoint. An "expiration date" would ultimately be an expiration of the PCGS guarantee. That might help PCGS, but it would cut their reputation off at the knees. It would also wreak havoc in the market as bluesheet prices would start acting like stock options with a decay in price as expiration approached.

BAJJERFAN · July 11, 2018 8:24AM

@jmlanzaf said:

@cameonut2011 said:

@keets said:
this is getting stupidly ridiculous.

My post was meant as a genuine question and not a troll post. My comments were in response to a current grader who has stated that standards have changed and will continue to change. Wouldn't it make sense for buyers to know not to rely too heavily on the old label and to re-evaluate under newer standards?

A date of grading might make sense, from a business standpoint. An "expiration date" would ultimately be an expiration of the PCGS guarantee. That might help PCGS, but it would cut their reputation off at the knees. It would also wreak havoc in the market as bluesheet prices would start acting like stock options with a decay in price as expiration approached.

For what purpose would you have an expiration date on something that almost never changes, either slab or coin. That's about as silly as putting an expiration date on a crescent wrench.

BAJJERFAN · July 11, 2018 8:31AM

@DNADave said:

@BAJJERFAN said:

@COCollector said:
Expiration date? No.

But I'd like to see the date it was graded.

Why? It's more important who graded it than what day it was graded. If I gave you a different ms63 1883-O Morgan to grade every day would you always grade it a 63?

Because of larger trends in grading standards. A date would help identify the "loose" or "tight" grading trends the same way we view small ANACS slabs, Green PCGS, and NGC Soap bars as more likely to be accurate.

Someone should start a site [kinda like the doily census] where you post cert numbers vs graded date for known submissions. IMO, opinions change and not standards or guidelines. The other thing is that 2 vastly different looking ms63 Morgans can have the same grade, unlike ASEs these days where the first coin struck pretty much looks like the 25,000th coin struck.

Does anyone have proof that PCGS regrades their grading set coins or have been told by someone who would know that on some Monday mornings that the graders are told to start grading 64s as 63s?

cameonut2011 · July 11, 2018 8:34AM

@BAJJERFAN said:
Someone should start a site [kinda like the doily census] where you post cert numbers vs graded date for known submissions. IMO, opinions change and not standards or guidelines. The other thing is that 2 vastly different looking ms63 Morgans can have the same grade, unlike ASEs these days where the first coin struck pretty much looks like the 25,000th coin struck.

Fair enough.

Does anyone have proof that PCGS regrades their grading set coins or have been told by someone who would know that on some Monday mornings that the graders are told to start grading 64s as 63s?

Both services have admitted standards have changed since the late 1980s to early 1990s. That was enough. My comments were really geared for insider2, a former top 2 tpg grader, who took the position that the standards constantly change and that this is widely accepted in an exchange with me last week. If standards really have changed and continue to change as he opines, then it would be convenient to know when a piece was graded. Maybe the term expiration date was a poor choice of words.

P.S. As for NGC's copper guarantee, there is indeed a 10 year expiration period (its words not mine). I don't think it is ridiculously stupid as keets calls it for that date to be printed on the slab for quick viewing on a bourse floor.

If my question seems absurd, it is born of the absurdity that has been posted the last two weeks by others.

jmlanzaf · July 11, 2018 8:36AM

@BAJJERFAN said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@cameonut2011 said:

@keets said:
this is getting stupidly ridiculous.

My post was meant as a genuine question and not a troll post. My comments were in response to a current grader who has stated that standards have changed and will continue to change. Wouldn't it make sense for buyers to know not to rely too heavily on the old label and to re-evaluate under newer standards?

A date of grading might make sense, from a business standpoint. An "expiration date" would ultimately be an expiration of the PCGS guarantee. That might help PCGS, but it would cut their reputation off at the knees. It would also wreak havoc in the market as bluesheet prices would start acting like stock options with a decay in price as expiration approached.

For what purpose would you have an expiration date on something that almost never changes, either slab or coin. That's about as silly as putting an expiration date on a crescent wrench.

Well, the OP's point would be that the grading standards do "evolve" over time. I think this comes out of another thread where several old-timers stated unequivocally that standards do change over time.

[Personally, I think "expiration" sends the wrong message. Although NGC does do it with copper.]

topstuf · July 11, 2018 8:38AM

No expiration date, but a WARNING label could be used.

WARNING may impair your thinking or reactions.

jmlanzaf · July 11, 2018 8:43AM

@topstuf said:
No expiration date, but a WARNING label could be used.

WARNING may impair your thinking or reactions.

"Do not drive while holding slab"

BillDugan1959 · July 11, 2018 8:46AM

(sarc on). Why not have an "expiration date" for the guarantee BUT PCGS and NGC could offer an extension or renewal for an additional fee? Great new source of additional income! What insurance company offers 'forever' without an additional hefty upfront charge or an annual premium subject to 'adjustment'? (sarc off)

P.S. I am a pretty happy PCGS user. No agenda here on that.

cameonut2011 · July 11, 2018 8:57AM

@BillDugan1959 said:
(sarc on). Why not have an "expiration date" for the guarantee BUT PCGS and NGC could offer an extension or renewal for an additional fee? Great new source of additional income! What insurance company offers 'forever' without an additional hefty upfront charge or an annual premium subject to 'adjustment'? (sarc off)

P.S. I am a pretty happy PCGS user. No agenda here on that.

This might catch on more than I thought.

Cougar1978 · July 11, 2018 9:01AM

No - that wb an absurdity

Sonorandesertrat · July 11, 2018 9:03AM

Ugh.

BAJJERFAN · July 11, 2018 9:05AM

@jmlanzaf said:

@BAJJERFAN said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@cameonut2011 said:

@keets said:
this is getting stupidly ridiculous.

My post was meant as a genuine question and not a troll post. My comments were in response to a current grader who has stated that standards have changed and will continue to change. Wouldn't it make sense for buyers to know not to rely too heavily on the old label and to re-evaluate under newer standards?

A date of grading might make sense, from a business standpoint. An "expiration date" would ultimately be an expiration of the PCGS guarantee. That might help PCGS, but it would cut their reputation off at the knees. It would also wreak havoc in the market as bluesheet prices would start acting like stock options with a decay in price as expiration approached.

For what purpose would you have an expiration date on something that almost never changes, either slab or coin. That's about as silly as putting an expiration date on a crescent wrench.

Well, the OP's point would be that the grading standards do "evolve" over time. I think this comes out of another thread where several old-timers stated unequivocally that standards do change over time.

[Personally, I think "expiration" sends the wrong message. Although NGC does do it with copper.]

Those "old-timers" were people who worked in the TPG grading rooms, no?

cameonut2011 · July 11, 2018 9:06AM

@BAJJERFAN said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@BAJJERFAN said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@cameonut2011 said:

@keets said:
this is getting stupidly ridiculous.

My post was meant as a genuine question and not a troll post. My comments were in response to a current grader who has stated that standards have changed and will continue to change. Wouldn't it make sense for buyers to know not to rely too heavily on the old label and to re-evaluate under newer standards?

A date of grading might make sense, from a business standpoint. An "expiration date" would ultimately be an expiration of the PCGS guarantee. That might help PCGS, but it would cut their reputation off at the knees. It would also wreak havoc in the market as bluesheet prices would start acting like stock options with a decay in price as expiration approached.

For what purpose would you have an expiration date on something that almost never changes, either slab or coin. That's about as silly as putting an expiration date on a crescent wrench.

Well, the OP's point would be that the grading standards do "evolve" over time. I think this comes out of another thread where several old-timers stated unequivocally that standards do change over time.

[Personally, I think "expiration" sends the wrong message. Although NGC does do it with copper.]

Those "old-timers" were people who worked in the TPG grading rooms, no?

yes

Sonorandesertrat · July 11, 2018 9:08AM

So the answer is yes and no?

cameonut2011 · July 11, 2018 9:12AM

@Sonorandesertrat said:
So the answer is yes and no?

I guess it depends on who you ask.

I know I come off as nutty (perfect moniker, no?), but this is really where the conversation has gotten us. If you accept the TPG grader's comments at face value that standards can change every month, then there should logically be a way to distinguish between standards if grading is to have any meaning.

Walkerfan · July 11, 2018 9:14AM

No, there is already more than enough confusion.

Sonorandesertrat · July 11, 2018 9:19AM

" If you accept the TPG grader's comments at face value that standards can change every month, then there should logically be a way to distinguish between standards if grading is to have any meaning."

Grading has become a game with serious financial implications, but shouldn't be taken seriously as a standard. It's main use is to lessen buyer price resistance. Remember the old Wendy's swimwear' commercial? That's where we are at. The term CRUTCH--used by another Forum member--is spot on.

jmlanzaf · July 11, 2018 9:44AM

@Sonorandesertrat said:
" If you accept the TPG grader's comments at face value that standards can change every month, then there should logically be a way to distinguish between standards if grading is to have any meaning."

Grading has become a game with serious financial implications, but shouldn't be taken seriously as a standard. It's main use is to lessen buyer price resistance. Remember the old Wendy's swimwear' commercial? That's where we are at. The term CRUTCH--used by another Forum member--is spot on.

I partly agree with this. "Crutch" however overstates it.

There are two different issues here: authentication and grading. I would hesitate to ever label authentication as a mere crutch.

On the grading issue, you could call it a "crutch" but the issue is more complex. There is a market issue here. Would you pay $30,000 for a condition rarity coin based on you and the dealer agreeing that it is definitely an MS-68? In some ways, those lofty grades and associated "rarity" didn't even exist before TPGS's. At one time, it was more or less XF, UNC, Gem UNC.

You could argue that paying $30,000 for a condition rarity is foolish with or without the slab, and I won't disagree with you. But that IS the current market reality which is more than just a "crutch". And the affect registry sets have had on pricing of even premium material is astronomical. The market reality is very different without the "crutch".

Sonorandesertrat · July 11, 2018 9:52AM

I agree. However, in the digital age (but not necessarily when I began coin collecting), a coin high in the condition census should be acknowledged for what it is, regardless of the grade on the insert. I don't think that paying through the nose for a condition rarity is always foolish. The big IF here is the number of coins in the next lower grade increment (MS67 using your example).

jmlanzaf · July 11, 2018 9:56AM

@Sonorandesertrat said:
I agree. However, in the digital age (but not necessarily when I began coin collecting), a coin high in the condition census should be acknowledged for what it is, regardless of the grade on the insert. I don't think that paying through the nose for a condition rarity is always foolish. The big IF here is the number of coins in the next lower grade increment (MS67 using your example).

I'm also thinking about some of the modern "rarities" where there are literally thousands of BU rolls that could be submitted.

Sonorandesertrat · July 11, 2018 9:59AM

Yep. Buying condition rarity moderns (top pop) is a good way to get burned in the near future.

Kkathyl · July 11, 2018 10:08AM

all that data is available but its not FOIA eligble perhaps next step would be taking requests on graders. I think we all need to settle down. With each great idea comes a greater bill.

Paradisefound · July 11, 2018 10:17AM

Why don't we have a set of strict standards of universal program and have them all scanned to determine an indisputable grades....taking all the differing human perspective out
JUST KIDDIN

Paradisefound · July 11, 2018 10:18AM

Insider2 · July 11, 2018 10:26AM

@BAJJERFAN said: "Why? It's more important who graded it than what day it was graded. If I gave you a different ms63 1883-O Morgan to grade every day would you always grade it a 63?"

The less info that appears on the slab, the better. Additionally, less chance to make an error such as an incorrect attribution. As to dates and graders. See previous sentence. There is already an "inside" group that monitors who is grading at a show away from the office and who is still in the office. Would you rather have a PCGS slab with DH as the finalizer or one of the others. And please don't give me the BS about it does not matter as you are an expert grader and buy the coin not the slab. I'll bet the DH slab would bring more money. Then we are adding another layer to the slab just as CAC does.

As for grading MS-63's the same all the same. That's what finalizers are for. They try to hold the "standard." The problem come with the "liners." They may change. Now, graders are human. I have had the experience of grading a coin - let's say MS-64 - on one day and while doing the QC a few days later and seeing the coin in a slab I think: "Who is the idiot that graded this coin MS-64." Then, I look up everyone's opinion and see I was the first one on the box and everyone agreed with my grade.

Another thing I wish were possible. If every coin that came in was "marked" to ID the submitter and then every type (Peace dollar) could be spread in a line so the graders could them around, ranking them by grade. The results would be more precise and accurate than if a group of graders each graded them individually.

Bottom line. An opinion of a coin's grade can change within a short time.

@BillJones said:

@COCollector said:
Expiration date? No.

But I'd like to see the date it was graded.

Doing that virtually put ANACS out of business when it was part of the ANA in the early 1980s. Soon there were ads for "old" and "new" ANACS papers with huge discounts for documents with older dates because those pieces were graded using less rigorous standard. Not long after the ANACS brand name became a second tier grading service.

I disagree, what hurt ANACS and put INSAB, NCI, and many others out of business in the 1980's was PCGS and NGC. They graded coins to a different standard.

There was another misstatement made above. While the grading standards have changed - it does not happen weekly>

Should slabs have expiration dates printed on them?

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