Your opinions for the grade of this 1857 Large Cent
knagrone
Posts: 14 ✭✭
Hello all, I would like to get opinions on the grade of this Large cent. I mainly collect Indian and Lincoln cents, but picked this up several months ago, for my Type set. It was part of a collection my local dealer bought from an older gentleman that collected in the 1950's. I have been looking for this specific date for quite a while and it's the nicest raw example I have come across. I know it's difficult to grade pics, but just wanted your thoughts. Thanks!
0
Comments
I suspect folks may not be commenting because of its granular obverse surface. I see both good and bad things on the coin but I believe it to be genuine. As for a grade, it's an Unc w/rub. That means IMO, any opinion between AU-58 and MS-64 is valid. Throw out the 58's and the 65's and I'll guess the average opinion will be MS-63+.
Ms64 bn
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
AU details, old cleaning and recolored.
MS62, My guess!
A government accident left me a former man, a potato. That photo on my profile is a low resolution selfie. I like coins.
I don't see any rub on this coin. I would grade it 65 BN. It's a later die state with some flowlining in the fields near the rims. The only thing that would give me pause is the color, which may be an imaging artifact.
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
Yes, that's the way I feel about. I could be wrong if there is luster in the fields, but looking at those photos, it looks like it's been re-colored to me. If you have luster, it could be a very nice coin, but if the fields are dull, it has Mint State sharpenss with issues.
Having said the 1857 large cent is a fun coin to own. I've long arranged to have one in my collection.
Not to show you up, but here is a really nice Mint State example. This is the type of luster you should see on a Mint State piece.
And here is one is EF with no luster.
And here is an very nice 1856 large cent with a lot of original red ... and a finger print on the obverse.
I don't see the rub either. Sorry to be critical but I wonder at the rim dings given the condition of the coin otherwise.
Smitten with DBLCs.
Minor rim nicks on that piece really are not an issue.
By which set of grading standards would you like it graded?
Current PCGS or NGC standards.
I see no rub either, just a little strike weakness on the reverse.
The color also concerns me. This is the date that I most frequently see
'dipped' red. Obviously if that is the case for your coin, it was done a very long time ago.
I was at first puzzled by the areas of granularity, but
I think BigMoose explained that.
Would love to see what else came in from that old collection!
Also, there is luster present on the coin and it looks much better in hand. All the feedback is very much appreciated!
The old collection was mainly Bust, Seated, and large cents. All raw high grade material. I wish I would have had more $$
You are not critical at all. It is me who learned to be critical. Almost a half Century ago a true "Technical" Grading System was developed at ANACS to strictly conform to the standards of Mint State at the time: No trace of wear (friction). It was not used except at the Washington DC office and later at the first TPGS - INSAB.
Rub on copper presents as a change of color and loss of original surface under magnification. It looks different from oxidation or a weakly struck surface. The coin has friction rub; nevertheless, coins as this are considered MS by the TPGS's - as I posted above, Unc w/rub. I'd price the coin as an MS-64 and drop it for a customer so he would think I gave him a great deal. LOL.
UNC Details - Cleaned and Recolored
From the image here it will be straight graded.
Edit: I forgot that's IMO.
+1
Interesting! My concern was the color, the granular surfaces, and the apparent lack of luster (although I have seen several True Views that didn't show luster very well). Maybe I would think differently in hand.
Do you want to see some marginally "funky" color on copper? Look at the EF 1857 posted above. It is still a nice coin.
For the sake of discussion, look in the field behind the head on the OP's coin from 3 to 5 o'clock. That type of darkness may indicate some old brushing to its entire surface but I see no indication in the image of recoloring or cleaning. Any person who could recolor copper so that the relief is outlined in "red" would be a millionaire already.
While I'm discussing the coins in this thread and making ACADEMIC COMMENTS that belong in a grading class to sharpen examination skills as they have no bearing on the "real world" of the TPGS's and the coin market:
Look at the "red" Uncirculated 1856 coin. There is no original surface on the center of the cheek. Note the flatness and change of color. It's called "rub." This characteristic can be caused by several things. The coin is still MS. There are other "red" MS coins that have a totally original, frosty cheek. This is an observable fact. I'm not making a judgment. Each coin we look at is different. The more you see and understand coinage metal and what happens to it during and post-strike, the more fun it can be.
I've trained myself to look at coins very negatively and beyond anything considered to be normal.
Nevertheless, I like every coin in this thread.
Honestly you are working way too hard in the forum @Insider2 especially today.
Party goers are missing you out there....heck with the grading tonight shall we?
Left work this afternoon, barbecue, fireworks. Is the volcano still going? Have not heard much lately?
MS64BN Possible 65BN. NICE!!!
I hope you enjoy the rest of your holiday today
'V' is still spewing...5.5 in richter scale this morning....no biggie at this point one of many.
It's raw now but has a PCGS True View? Sounds like it was cracked from a genuine holder.
Lance.
I would say MS63/64... I hedge my guesses when judging from pictures now.... Often, though not always, coins can be so different when in hand...Cheers, RickO
I interpreted his statement as meaning that he bought it raw and has now submitted it to PCGS.
I'm having a lot of trouble telling how much luster is left on the OPs coin, and thus I'm a bit torn between a high end AU coin and low end MS. I'll guess 63BN, but wouldn't be surprised with anything from 58 to 64. Here is a 64RB from my collection where you can also clearly see the luster that Bill was describing in his post/coins:
Some insight to why I started this thread and will try not to bore you all to death! My purpose is to gain knowledge by picking the brains of more experienced numismatists than myself and this is by far the best forum I have found on the Web. I have read every discussion since joining and have learned some very valuable lessons that have no doubt saved me some disappointments and dollars over the past few years. I hope to become more involved in the future. As stated earlier, I love copper and for the past 5 years or so I have concentrated on mainly small cents and have assembled an UNC set from 1857 to date, all in PCGS slabs. I am now working on a Type collection. I would like to think that I can accurately grade copper coins, since most of my small date collection I purchased raw and sent in for grading. I am confident in my abilities with small cents but finding Large cents to be more challenging, especially the earlier dates. I purchased the 1857 large cent in this discussion raw and sent it to PCGS for grading expecting/hoping for MS64BN. Well, it came back Genuine UNC Details (94 – Altered Surf). So, it was not flagged for being cleaned (as I thought), it wasn’t recolored (I didn’t think so). But Altered Surface?? Their definition is: “Adding anything to the surface of the coin to either “Improve” its appearance or to cover marks”. I have seen many coins over the years that have been Doctored with lacquer, wax, putty, and other things. I am sure most of you have as well, it’s not that difficult to identify. I inspected the coin’s surface with my high-power loop and cannot find any foreign material. Thinking I must be missing something, I took the coin to a local dealer I know who is also a jeweler with over 45 years of experience in the rare coin business. He first checked with his loop and stated that it looked like a nice MS64 example with some cabinet friction. Next he put it under the microscope in his shop and verified that there was nothing applied to the surface, but what he originally thought was cabinet friction was probably caused by a horse hair brush, which collectors in the early days used to dust off their coins. The friction and brushing was mentioned earlier by Insider2. Anyway, I cracked out the cent and it is on its way across the street to get their opinion. If it grades like I think it should, I will send it back to PCGS for crossover and hope they agree. And thank you all again. I really appreciate the informative feedback! I will follow-up in a few weeks with the latest results.
If PCGS called it ""altered surface," it was probably lightly buffed at some time in the past. That's what is causing the darkness in the field.
That indicates to me that the members who called this coin cleaned and recolored are probably correct! Since PCGS "detailed" the coin, I'll be surprised if NGC straight grades it.
Well, that's why I'm here. To learn all I can. We shall see....
As I reread the original post and went through each comment, I would have to stick to my low-end MS-64 grade with what appears recoloring on the reverse quite some time ago. Thank you for the post and looking forward to seeing what NGC gives it.
**caused by a horse hair brush, which collectors in the early days used to dust off their coins. **
Yes, that was in the old days.....now we use a camel hair brush!
“Recolored” is altered surfaces. The coin doctors use sulfur to darken the surfaces which reacts with the copper to form a brown surface. The copper on the surface is chemically changed. The trouble is the color is usually not the same as natural toning.
While the trueview led me to believe (erroneously) that the coin graded, that opinion by PCGS doesn't really surprise me. The color is problematic -- the steel tone in particular.
I'm sure you were disappointed, but the good news is NGC does tend to be a bit more lenient with large cents in this regard, and there is an active market in coins like this even in the event it doesn't grade.
This but I bet it au55s
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Many years ago I bought a very sharp Fugio Cent that had toning that looked just like the toning on that 1857 cent. A veteran dealer told me, “You could strike a match on the surface of that one,” which was his way of saying the coin had gotten the sulfur treatment. Since then I’ve seen addition coins with the same treatment.
Some coin doctors are better than others with sort of thing. I once had a rare variety of an 1806 half cent that was once the finest known. An idiot cleaned it, and it was later fixed with the sulfur treatment so that it looked half way decent.
@BillJones said: "Recolored” is altered surfaces. The coin doctors use sulfur to darken the surfaces which reacts with the copper to form a brown surface. The copper on the surface is chemically changed. The trouble is the color is usually not the same as natural toning.
I think you are being too simplistic. All of us should agree that virtually anything we do to the surface of a coin after it is minted alters its surface. That includes recoloring, cleaning, conservation, fake toning, etc.
AFAIK, in most cases, the TPGS's like to identify the specific problem. Thus, recoloring a coin chemically is not called altering its surface although that is the case. One of the only cases where specificity is not done is cleaning. I've seen buffed or polished coins simply labeled as cleaned. IMO, this is a disservice to those trying to learn specific characteristics on coins w/ altered surfaces.
BTW, thanks for the "how to" lesson for altering copper coins.
This is a coin purchased from one of the major EAC dealers when I was ‘less experienced’ that bagged at both services for altered surfaces. Just a little too smooth, probably from light burnishing:
Yes, I think that 1835 large cent has been smoothed and probably re-toned. Having said that most every piece you see of some large cent dates have been worked on. 1823 comes immediately to mind.
To my eyes, the color of that 1835 large cent is too uniform (and has a bit of a chemically treated look)---that alone would make me suspicious.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
This coin was from a bulk purchase that had a nearly complete set in a National album put together decades ago. The coin was mostly a dull red ~7 years ago, but has since been stored in the envelope shown and is recovering rather nicely. Sulfur treatment in slow motion I guess. Surprised though that the album didn't do a better job retoning it after all those years:
Clearly, the product is a better investment than coins.
https://collectons.com/shop/item/2656/Deller-s-Darkener-for-Cleaned-Copper-Coins
It must be getting scarce. The price has more than tripled.
https://ebay.com/itm/Dellers-Darkener-Restores-the-Aged-Look-to-most-Cleaned-Copper-Coins-/382473504131
PCGS is inconsistent with its use of genuine codes IMO. Sometimes there are also multiple issues with coins and PCGS will only choose one (supposedly the worst one) and that is the code it will use too.
Yes, some coins need more than one code.
As I reread the original post and went through each comment, I would have to stick to my low-end MS-64 grade with what appears recolorong on the reverse quite some time ago. Thank you for the post and looking forward to seeing what NGC gives it.
Sorry if I missed someone else mentioning it but I see a dark mark or something above the E in Liberty. Just the photo or nothing?
It does seem like the TPG's could give all the details when they make the determination since some alterations are a bigger issue than others.
If a coin is treated with sulfur does it get darker as the years go by or do they do something with the coin to end the reaction?
Successful BST deals with mustangt and jesbroken. Now EVERYTHING is for sale.