Advice for new collectors
Toma
Posts: 58 ✭✭✭
Hey, I'm new to collecting and I made an account here to try and get some advice from some of the collectors and dealers on here. What are some mistakes I am likely to make and how can I avoid making them? I've purchased a red book to make sure I don't accidentally get rid of any good pocket change and I try to read up on forums to figure out what to avoid, such as fake ASE, Morgans and pre-33 gold being fairly common online. Any tips or advice on how to collect more efficiently would be greatly appreciated. It would also be interesting to hear about the mistakes you've made and how you avoid them now.
My most recent purchase was a $5 1912 s indian head (XF, but I swear it would be AU if it weren't for that scratch by the beak) that I purchased from a coin shop near me for $45~ over spot. I was wondering how you guys felt about the price. Hopefully the pictures come out well. Thanks.
Comments
Welcome to the forum. Nice coin.
Welcome.....I don't do gold much so will not comment on you price.
bob
That mintmark looks kinda suspect IMO.
Your off to a good start by getting a Redbook and doing your research before you buy the coin. Check out coinfacts here at pcgs.com. it will give additional info on your research.
Also welcome to the forums!!
This was what I was thinking too.
Your coin is a counterfeit. You should ONLY purchase coins graded by NGC or PCGS until you get your feet wet!
Take it back and trade for something else.
Welcome. That coin appears to be in a cardboard holder. As you are new to collecting, you may want to buy certified coins. Unless they are inexpensive. Safer that way.
Welcome to the Forum!!!
The first thing to realize is that you will make many mistakes along the way, and to not sweat about it. Making mistakes is so common in coin collecting that it's called, "paying tuition".
Second, do NOT buy for financial appreciation... you may make money on a given coin, but the odds are stacked against you. ONLY buy coins with discretionary income.
Depending on what your budget is, I would suggest that you stick to PCGS or NGC slabbed coins at first. It should protect you from some of the more egregious mistakes, such as the common one for Newbies of believing a coin to be a nice uncirculated one, when it is in fact a high AU coin. Seeing the grades given should also over time help you to be able to grade coins by yourself. I would also be VERY leery of buying raw gold, until you've trained your eye (and have picked up a scale etc. for verifying gold coins). There are many counterfeits out there.
Other than that, you might decide what you want to collect, e.g. specialize in a given series, or work on a Type set, or maybe get interested in Ancient or Foreign coins, or just go for broke and buy whatever floats your boat. As always, buy some books on the subject(s). Feel free to ask questions on these Boards. You'll find that many people here specialize in a series or three. For example, my favorite series is Franklin half dollars.
... And at the end of the day, never forget, the single most important aspect of coin collecting is HAVE FUN!!!
U.S. Type Set
Here you go, from SB PCGS 45:
OP’s:
When I was a young collector, I wanted to buy U.S gold coins, but my parents didn’t want me to get stuck with counterfeits. Their advice was to buy only from very established dealers, which was as close you could get to certified coins in the 1960s . That’s what I did, and I never got stuck with one during that period. If fact I was picky, even as a kid, and the coins I bought were all graded MS-63 or higher.
I echo the comments by others. Stick to major TPG gold coins. Don’t go out on your own because counterfeit gold coins have been around since before I became a collector in the early 1960s.
Agree, looks a little large and sloppy. But I'm no expert on gold.
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Welcome. As most of the others have already said, that coin is counterfeit. It is also a pretty obvious counterfeit. I'm not sure who you bought it from, but if it was an alleged coin dealer and not a pawn shop, I would either be a little suspicious of the expertise of the dealer....OR, he knew and stuck you with a fake.
Yes take it back and retrieve your money.
The mint mark’s not even in the right location.
Good eye, Jeremy.
Congratulations on coming on here and checking things out.
The expertise here is profound and wide-ranging (as you can see!) If I were starting out coin collecting, I'd come back here often and ask my questions.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Some great advice has already been given and I will reiterate the most important one. Do not buy raw gold or expensive coins before you know what to look for. Buy graded PCGS or NGC and collect what you like and how you like and everything else will work out.
If you are buying for investment and not as a hobby then you will need to be extra careful with what you buy unless it is discretionary money, then it won't matter as much.
Good luck and happy collecting.
Donato
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I knew the S looked weird but the redbook said that "well struck" mint marks exist so I just assumed it was that. Now that it was pointed out I definitely see that the mint mark is in the wrong location. My receipt doesn't mention a mint mark and now I'm very suspicious. "1912 $5.00 gold indian United States" is all it says so I'm wondering if they knew the mint mark was fake, but then again I'm not sure how specific they get on their receipts. I did purchase this from a coin/jewelry shop, not a pawn shop, and their online reviews were good. Maybe this is rare for them but I don't think I'll be going back. I'm in a big city so I got lots of options.
I did weigh the coin and the weight is correct. I really appreciate you guys helping me out.
You really do not have options as you legally cannot sell a fake US coin. So, do take it back and at least ask for a trade and get some ASE's or Morgan Dollars or such. Don't trust that dealer ever again. Jewelers know coins. You got screwed. You can't sell it. You could melt it. Take to a coin shop and have them "test" it for the gold content.
bob
It's not just the mint mark, the Indian's Head is very mushy and the numbers in the date look too wide also.
They may or may not have known. My only point really was that you can not trust their judgment. Even if it was an honest mistake, it suggests a lack of expertise so when they sell you a coin like a 16-D dime or S-VDB cent that is commonly counterfeited, you can't trust their opinion. Further, if they tell you a coin is a solid AU, you can't necessarily trust that they haven't missed some cleaning or something.
An ignorant dealer with an expert customer is a gold mine. An ignorant dealer with a newbie customer is a land mine.
Don't feel bad. The $2 1/2 dollar Indian and its look alike $5 are two of the most frequently counterfeited US gold coins. It may actually be gold. If so you should be able to sell it for scrap at about 98% of melt.
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
All the advice above is great. Also, you will learn alot when you sell. At some point sell a coin early on---see what the dealer you purchased from offers (or if they offer). See what others offer. Will help you when you purchase coins
Mint mark locations will vary a little bit, since they are punched into the die by hand.
However, of the 25 1912-S $5 coins shown on PCGS CoinFacts, none has the mint mark as high or as bold as yours.
http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/CoinImages.aspx?s=8524
@Insider2 is very experienced at spotting fake gold, so he may have seen several things which indicated a fake.
Back in the very early 1970's I ordered 20 gold coins from a dealer that advertised on the back page of the CDN. 15 of them were fake.
Best advice? Be thoughtful and take your time to minimize your mistakes. But enjoy yourself, if you're a collector it's a hobby.
@Toma ....Welcome aboard.... You have just learned your first lesson in coin collecting. I am happy to see you have invested in a Redbook... and, if you are focused on gold coins, there are several excellent reference books on that subject... including how to recognize counterfeits. There is a lot of good advice above.... However, coin collecting is a wide ranging hobby, and no one can give you all the advice in one post. Continue to read this forum... we have the top experts in many areas posting here and the advice is freely given. Ask questions, but try to be specific when asking. Do not get discouraged, it is a fantastic hobby... Cheers, RickO
Welcome to the forum, do not let it ruin your day if it is indeed a counterfeit coin, most of us here are learning new things every day
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Bad transactions with : nobody to date
I like those type of gold coins, I do not own any due to the counterfeit problem. If I buy one in the future I will bring the pictures here before I buy it. The last gold coin I bought was direct from the Daniel Carr, a 1906 double eagle type coin, where I know it is a genuine gold coin.
If this is counterfeit and sounds like it is. I know what I would do, grab the receipt if you paid by credit card take it back with receipt. If you lost the receipt take it back anyways. Has it been over 30 days since you bought it? Most transactions have a guarantee especially by credit card.
If you paid cash, I know I would take it back and right there at the shop demand my money back. If they refuse I would be calling the police to come to the shop. I would be waiting for the police to show up and make a complaint. I have a feeling your money will be in your hand before you make that call or shortly there after. Of course bring a witness. Welcome to the board, good luck and very sorry about your purchase.
Insider, help me out why you call this coin a counterfeit. What are you seeing that make you certain that the coin is a counterfeit?
I put photos of the OP and the Stacks PCGS XF40 below. The mint marks look a little different and the position is different, but many others mint marks are different on this date on certified coins. One poster noted the date spacing was different, but I am not seeing a date spacing difference between the two coins. I agree that the OP coin looks mussy. The OP coin is photographed through plastic that can cause a mussy look.
The lower part of the bar that the eagle is perched on has no detail on the OP coin, and has areas on the tail feathers that lack detail. Is the lack of detail caused by strike, photo quality or counterfeit quality?
The mintmark in the OP coin looks like a snake. Genuine US mint products had serifs, which are evident even in the smooshed out MMs like the one you posted. Also look at the placement of the MM.
I'd also point out that there are numerous sites on the internet that will show you pictures of genuine coins and tell you what to look for. > @slider23 said:
I wasn't referring to the spacing between the numbers in the date but the actual thickness of each individual number.
Don't buy what you don't understand. In order to spot a counterfeit, you need to first know in a fair bit of detail what real examples should look like. You need to look at lots of coins in hand, and study details--fields, dentils, edges, lettering, etc. Looking at nice pictures in books or on your monitor isn't good enough.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Wow, you guys are incredible and I hope to one day be as knowledgeable as you are. I returned to the coin shop where they insisted the coin was genuine. They proved that the gold was real, which I agreed with, and their "proof" of why the mint mark wasn't fake was 'Who would fake a non-key date coin?'. With a couple minutes of talking I was offered a cash refund or to send it to another numismatist to prove the authenticity . I chose the cash refund, thanked them and left. Overall I'm pleased with the customer service but I got the feeling they aren't extremely knowledgeable on coins. I think I will continue to shop there but I'll be sticking to bullion or graded coins. I learned that I have a lot to learn. Thanks for everyone's help and comments.
Don't buy raw gold, period. That's asking for trouble. There's a good chance that the dealer knew it was fake--it will now be simply sold to another buyer as a numismatic collectible. Dealers who knowingly push fakes frequently count on buyers not realizing what they bought, sometimes not until decades later. About a decade ago, I was in a Tucson shop when a guy in his late 60's walked I with about 50 US gold pieces, all raw and all purchased from US dealers, ass purportedly mint state. Many were fake, others were polished, tooled, or harshly cleaned. They represented a significant chunk of his retirement savings. I was shocked.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Glad it worked out for you. Sounds like they were not interested in learning, only making the sale.
Until you become experienced, PCGS/NGC certification is your insurance policy.
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Don’t buy raw gold coins.
Find a mentor.
I wouldn't go back. "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice..."
Welcome to the boards and the hobby btw. Glad you got your money back. A lot of people don't.
Welcome to the boards and be safe with all those raws out there......some premium for assurance is always good.
Happy collecting
I would advise against buying coins with problems (cleaned, scratched, nicked, etc.) as they will never sell for more than you paid for them - usually for less. There are no bargains in coins unless someone makes a huge mistake (which dealers seldom do), or you are screwing someone.
Go to lots of shops and shows and look at lots of the types of coins that interest you, and focus on a few types to learn them, then go to the next few. Take little bites and nibbles or you will choke.
No need to take product in trade. They sold you a counterfeit. If they are members of the ANA, they just broke a cardinal rule, and if they don't give you your money back they can be expelled. PERIOD!
Should have asked if they were willing to send it to PCGS for authentication. Something tells me they would have an excuse as to why they couldn't.
. That would have been a clear Indication whether you could trust them or not.
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Welcome to coin collecting. The best advice is don't buy raw gold coins. There's plenty of US gold coins already available in the market place that have already been slabbed by NGC and PCGS that come with a grade and authenticity guarantee.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
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Even advanced collectors need to do their homework and use a lot of care when they buy raw gold. There are many well executed counterfeits, and more than a few dealers don't take the time or have the expertise to spot them.
My feeling is that this dealer knew he had a turkey when he sold this piece to you for just over melt. Otherwise, why would he have done that? Dealers don't give profit opportunities away. It's too tough of a business to do that.
Welcome to the Board. The coin may indeed be the correct weight and gold content. Counterfeit US gold was made in the 1970s (and 1960s?) in Lebanon. These pieces were brought to and sold in the US. They were not made to 'cheat' collectors as much as to 'bypass' the US law against owing bullion gold (owning numismatic gold was permissible). These pieces were traded based on their gold value. According to a long-time dealer I know, he claims they are usually around 0.90 fine.
As others have stated ... until you are more experienced, it's in your best interest to purchase coins certified by PCGS, NGC, or ANACS to assure authenticity. IF you are offered PCGS or NGC certified US gold at 'fire sale' prices ... the coins may be counterfeit coins in counterfeit holders. Stick with reputable dealers and expect to pay a fair price.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Actually many of the counterfeit US gold coins produced in the 1960's and later were produced to cheat coin collectors since many counterfeiters concentrated on producing the gold dollars and the gold $3 coins since these coins were selling at a large premium over their melt value.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire