1909 S VDB
Jmacd013
Posts: 40 ✭
original post was requesting opinions on authenticity, grade, and value. I purchased this as a raw coin from the son of the original owner with a buy back guarantee in writing if it does not grade as genuine. Based on what I have read, I believe the mint mark is position #4 and as you can see it does have weak initials. I took a chance on it based on my previous transactions with the seller, the opinion of my local dealer who though it was genuine, and the buy back guarantee.
I understand there are a lot of counterfeits and won’t be shocked if it comes back as genuine. What I was really hoping to learn was what the grade might be if it is authentic and if the coin shows any issues that may affect value. I’m hindsight if I had reworded my initial post I might not have received so many comments. Regardless, I do appreciate the feedback.
I have added the images back to this thread and will post the results when the coin comes back from PCGS in a few months.
Comments
Cleaning. Reduces value.
Thanks, but where do you see signs of cleaning?
Look at above and just below the word "Liberty" and on the left side of the reverse. The way surfaces go from slightly grainy to smooth make it highly suspicious. The grainy part suggests die rust, but I don't recall die rust on a 1909-S-VDB cent. Correct me if I an wrong.
This is an example of a coin that has had a lot of work done on the surfaces with some well done re-toning. The one problem with the re-toning is the bright spots on the high parts of the design.
I’m too new to this to give an educated opinion, which is why I’m posting it on here. I’m hoping that is not the case, but if so, would understand the “details” someone else referred too. What do you think it would grade as?
I believe it is genuine. I am looking right now at the excellent ANA "A Reprint From the Numismatist -- Vol. II" -1988 on P. 43, and your coin appears to be Mintmark Position 4. Position 4 is the most common die . . . and also, verbiage states that due to planchets, there can be a 'brassy' appearance to some coins.
I like the coin . . . . .
Drunner
Thanks Drunner. Can I ask your opinion on grade?
It is in decent shape, too bad someone decided to "improve" it. Not a collector of cents, but looks low xf.
The very first rule in numismatic collecting should be:
!. Under no circumstances should a novice, up to and including a slightly knowledgeable collector, purchase a raw 1909-S V.D.B. cent. period.
Note: There are still a few experts that will weigh in on this coin, good luck.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
As soon as someone says they are SURE the coin is genuine, I suspect it is counterfeit. If you were expert enough to KNOW it is genuine, you would know the grade. I don't mean this as a criticism, but just a warning. The only way you can KNOW it is genuine is if you are an expert or an objective expert has assessed it.
That said, it could be Die #4. There is something odd looking about the lower serif on the coin, but I can't really see it well enough in the photo to be sure.
It is also worth noting that there are die transfer counterfeits, so even if it is exactly a Die #4 in appearance it could still be counterfeit. I throw that out there because the other thing that concerns me is the appearance of roughness on the surface and even what could be a depression at the base of the head behind the neck.
That could all be artifacts of the photo, I'm not one who believes you can definitively authenticate a coin from a photo unless it is an obvious fake - and this is not obviously fake. To me, it is also not obviously genuine.
Deleted
No one is trying to "beat you down". The advice here is do not buy rare coins raw. That's what tpgs' are for.
I'm no expert so I have the book. I cannot tell from your pic if it's real or not so I suggest you look at these 2 pics.
First is real VDB and Second is FAKE VDB
REAL
FAKE
Yes looking at your coin it looks fake to me. If you look at the pic above you can see the line in the "B" one go's down in the real one and in the fake like yours go's straight across that is a dead giveaway, Sorry about the bad news's.
PS: Welcome to the board.
Hoard the keys.
Thanks again everyone. I’m not sure if I’ll continue on the message board, but if I do I’ll post the results from PCGS.
Added VDB.
Yep.
You ask for an opinion and then object to getting opinions? That's all they are: opinions. None of us can definitively authenticate that coin from that picture.
They started counterfeiting coins almost as soon as they started making coins. Many if not most of the fakes I've encountered came from "old, lifelong collections". It's just a fact of life in the coin world. Usually the lifelong collector never knew the coins were fake. He may well have even found them in circulation - this is especially true of silver coins.
If you have an enforceable buy back guarantee, then good on you! It certainly diminishes your risk. It also doesn't guarantee authenticity, it only guarantees the seller (is he an expert or just an heir) thinks it is authentic.
I have had more than one angry heir call me a thief for telling them their 1916-D dime or S-VDB cent is fake because "my father collected these as a kid and he was a collector for 60 years..." I almost never get an apology when it comes back from NGC or PCGS as a fake. [Per another thread, yet another reason dealers drink...]
It also looks like an added VDB to me.
LRC Numismatics eBay listings:
http://stores.ebay.com/lrcnumismatics
No offense, but this comment, combined with the one that you might not continue on the message board, is a bad sign as far as I am concerned.
Membership and knowledge here are free. I don't see a downside. It does get a bit rough at times but it is fairly easy to assimilate. You have many lifetimes of experience you can tap into here.
As for people "beating you down", it sounds like you really just came here looking for someone to tell you what you want to hear.
I know very little about these cents and I might have thought it was good myself, although I am troubled by the area behind his head and the overall grainy appearance of the surface. There also seem to be some raised dots around "trust". And, "we trust" seems flattened a bit, almost as if from a coin rolling machine.
Bottom line for me is to only buy a stabbed 09S VDB. With some coins, lack of a slab is a huge red flag.
But, I hope it works our for you when you get it graded.
No competent authenticator would evaluate a heavily counterfeited coin such as this based on a photo and proclaim it to be authentic. The fakes being produced now are extremely well executed and are difficult enough to evaluate using a stereo microscope under proper lighting. There's usually a reason when a heavily counterfeited coin such as this is being sold raw. There's plenty of 1909 SVDB cents that have already been graded and slabbed in the marketplace and there's no reason to take a chance buying a raw one from a stranger.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
How in the world can I delete this post? If not the post, the account???
You can't delete the thread ... it's here forever, just like herpes (unless the Mods provide a magical herpetic thread cure and remove it).
Why go away? Did people hurt your feelings? If so, either choose to learn from it or go dangerously into numismatics on your own. Be wary of 'experts' (even with 40 years of experience) who are selling you the coins you don't know much about. Seek other opinions, read books, and join your local coin club.
It seems you didn't want opinions about your coin as much as you wanted affirmation. Affirmation about it being a nice coin and a wise buy ... and perhaps even that you are smart, tall, and handsome.
By leaving, you will be ignoring one of the best resources available to newbies and experts alike. Sure, the Board has it's share of blunt responses. Many members here did not earn passing grades in charm school. But many of those same members have a deep understanding of numismatics and are willing to share openly.
Think of it this way ... a newbie posting to this Board is sometimes like someone who just bought their first motorcycle and parked that shiny Honda Rebel in front of a biker bar and asked the patrons inside for their opinion.
Stay here, don't take the comments personal, and you will grow as a numismatist. Leave, and I wish you the best of luck building your collection. Regardless ... welcome to a great hobby.
Edited for spelling ...
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Did anyone capture the picture from the OP?? Seems a shame that it was deleted.... and really sad the OP has decided to leave..... The collective inputs amount to advice - the best that can be offered based on a picture. I hope that @Jmacd013 reconsiders and remains a forum member. Cheers, RickO
OP took his ball and went home.
My guess is he is in for some more very expensive lessons before he either gives up on coin collecting or comes to his senses.
It seems that he was indeed here for affirmation and nothing else.
Expensive lesson.
I only have the reverse as I was studying the V.D.B.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
No - but should have seen where it was headed and "quoted" the original post to keep it for posterity.
I take the beatdowns as part of the learning. We can get offended for a moment, then we can digest the information and learn, move on or both. We all have been taken back by this at times. It makes us stronger and wiser.
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
The OP can't leave until he starts a "Goodbye!!!" thread. That's the rule.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
This is like that Hotel California parody song.
"They stab it with their steelie wheats, but they just can't kill the beast " ....and "you can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Question: How do you add a V.D.B. ???
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Use the same glue CAC uses.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
This is going to be a good one.
Hoard the keys.
My YouTube Channel
I brought the coin to the most reputable dealer I know of and submitted it to PCGS authentication and grading. The dealer believes it is genuine and will grade around AU.
I’m sure it will be several weeks before I see it again, but I will post the outcome.
Here are the pictures:
Thx for adding back pics (excellent pics BTW). I really hope it does come back no issues, that would be a great find. Also, it would be an important lesson for people here as we all seek to learn.
Excellent!
Collector, occasional seller
@Jmacd013
I just want to thank you for sharing this coin with all of us on this forum. I cannot tell from the pictures if the coin is genuine, and I would probably not be able to tell a well made counterfeit. But TG's have a data base on coins such as the 1909SVDB that describe many tell tale signs of counterfeits that do not relate to the exact positioning of the VDB. This knowledge is likely not known by everyone that prides themselves on their grading ability. Counterfeit detection is another subject matter not related to grading. Good luck with your coin and know that PCGS is in the professional business of authencity. And those that recommend passing on RAW rarities speak wise words.
OINK
I hope it comes back right. I get it wrong some time's crow taste good on the grill not baked. And if you get it wrong just learn from it ask questions and after a bit you can tell by just how the coin looks, it will help not only you but others on the board as well that don't know or don't want to ask as well. Knowledge is one thing no one can take from you and is King in many things we do in life.
Good luck and keep posting don't let this get to you and happy you came back.
Hoard the keys.
Even if it comes back with a details grade due to some problem the PCGS slab will come with a guarantee of authenticity which adds value to this coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I've been a collector since the 50's and am always a new collector because I'm always going into new areas of collecting. Every area of collecting has its share of dangers, crooks, rewards and friends. The people on this forum have probably all paid hard for their lessons and, by way of their skepticism, are sharing their experiences. Your best friends tell you the truth as they see it.
Your coin is attractive and if you trust the seller and the seller is very knowledgeable, then you should have something nice. The negativity you see is due to the fact that the 09SVDB is one of the most commonly altered, counterfeited, messed-with coins you could hope to buy, maybe the most commonly faked. It is caveat emptor squared. Slabbing it is very smart as it would be tough to sell raw for the same reason.
That's one of my favorite songs of all time. The Eagles were great!
Just went back through this thread. The OP had asked for an opinion on grade, but if he is gone . . . I won't worry . . . .
Drunner
Still here, Drunner.
The only ones I've seen were done by "chasing." It is an alteration done by moving surface metal into the shape of the letters.
I did not wish to comment on this thread and was enjoying the discussion. I asked the OP to send it to me for free as the VDB looked OK, just a little hit in the center of the "B." When I learned he sent it to PCGS I did not bother to check the position of the S. It looks like a genuine SVDB Position #4 (low and centered on the "0").
I guess we'll see in a month.
I do appreciate the offer @WoodenJefferson. It was submitted via the economy option and our dealer waits until they have a certain quantity before they send them in so it may be a couple months before we see it, but I will definitely post updates.
Nice looking penny what is it worth? TYIA
That’s the big question. If it is genuine, it depends on what it grades.
I've been a collector long before I sold my first coins. I too collected cents from circulation back in the early 1950's. I quit collecting them when I realized I would never find a 09svdb. I found all the rest.
Fast forward to 2010 when I looked at the collection in the blue Whitman folder with the thought of transferring it to a just purchased Dansco album. When in the process of transferring and examining (hadn't seen them in 50 years) I discovered that my 14d was in fact a 44d that had been altered expertly but altered just the same. Big disappointment for sure.
The point that I am making is that fakes and altered dates can end up in a collection and not see the light of day for 50+ years. The heirs can take over and really believe that since Dad was a dealer/collector that they had to be real. If that had happened to me and my heirs you could see that they would not believe anyone that told them it was a fake/altered date.
Be well,
bob