Does This Bother Anyone Here???
Onastone
Posts: 4,153 ✭✭✭✭✭
I was buying something at a store and handed the cashier a crisp looking $50 bill. The clerk pulled out a marker and made a slash across the face to see if it was real or counterfeit. Now I know this is a coin forum, but some of you also collect currency...This drives me crazy! Isn't it illegal to deface money too? Imagine if cashiers started marking up coins too or biting them to see if they're real.
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I would make a distinction between using an anti-counterfeit pen on currency and biting on coins. When you introduce body fluids or other biologics, you have crossed a line and I would be deeply bothered by the prospect of exposure to vast numbers of contagions.
If I were rich, I'd collect the $100 bills with the different characters stamped on them. I think it has to do with drug money - sort of like a chop for ownership or counting. Any ideas?
its a modern day chop mark
Funny you posted this as I had the exact same thing happen today. I handed the cashier at the hardware store a $50 and he swiped the counterfeit marker across the face of it. Of course I had already looked at the bill for a star or interesting serial number, but if it were a case of an unknowing customer passing a collectible bill it would've been toast at that point.
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pay with an older bill and they will mark it with their marker even though it doesn't tell them anything they will just take it like it passed
The marker does not render the bill unsuitable for reissuance, so it does not qualify as defacing the bill.
I'm going to start looking for 100's with different stamps....I think I've actually seen some of those.
I actually had one cashier swipe the market over the bill, then make a squiggle, then a mustache and beard were added.....I've was getting so irritated. Are those stupid markers really even necessary? Can't you just look for the watermark or embedded strip? I remember being a cashier a long time ago and finding a counterfeit $20. I called the cops, they showed up and looked at the bill and said,"This looks fine to us." I had to show them how the paper was wrong, and then they took the bill with them.
True, but it does degrade the bill doesn't it? I wouldn't want to see a star note with marks all over the face.
I think buyers/purchasers should carry a marking pen for their own security, so they don't receive in their change a counterfeit bill that got past the cashier. Turn the verification factor on them.
No harm to the note. The marker contains ammonia which turns black if the note is fake. If real it turns gold and then evaporates and does not leave a mark. The black mark stays and does deface the bill. Seems the ammonia reacts with something in the paper to turn the gold color. Remember gold is good. Black is bad.
bob
iodine? ammonia?
The laws about defacing don't take collecting into consideration.
The pen swipes definitely impact the value of any collectable notes.
Perhaps we should hoard unmarked notes because they will be rare one day?
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The marker reacts to starch which shouldn't be present in currency paper.
The counterfeit detector pen is extremely simple. It contains an iodine solution that reacts with the starch in wood-based paper to create a black stain. When the solution is applied to the fiber-based paper used in real bills, no discoloration occurs. The pen does nothing but detect bills printed on normal copier paper instead of the fine papers used by the U.S. Treasury.
Our currency is more cloth than paper.
While most paper used for such items as newspapers and books is primarily made of wood pulp, the currency paper made specifically for the Bureau of Engraving and Printing (BEP) is composed of 75% cotton and 25% linen – with the security thread and watermark built in.
Defacing a bill or coin is only illegal if its done for fraud. That's why drawing a mustache on Washington or those elongated carnival cents ar not illegal.
Interesting !!!
It bothers me too!
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Sorry but I must strongly disagree. I have studied these issues extensively and the laws regarding coins and currency have some important differences.
Coins can be defaced as long as it is not done for fraudulent purposes.
On the other hand, it is illegal to deface currency. Defacement is defined as intentionally rendering a banknote unsuitable for reissuance.
Destroy a bill by accident and you are OK since it was not intentional. Mark a bill intentionally but not render it unsuitable for reissuance and you are OK. Do both at the same time and you are breaking the law.
Cloth is made from fibers that are spun into thread that is then woven into cloth. Paper is made from fibers of some kind that are made into a slurry mixed with a binding agent and laid into a screen.
I am aware of some Notgeld that was printed on silk, but aside from those I am not aware of any banknotes that are printed on cloth. Certainly no US currency has been printed on cloth.
In the history of papermaking the modern wood pulp paper that is familiar to us is a relatively new concept. For centuries paper was made from cotton, linen, rice, etc.
Cotton or linen fibers are not cloth. They can be spun into thread and then woven into cloth, but until then they are just fibers.
Sorry for the rant.
I seemed to have touched a nerve.
The Italics is cut and paste from a google search so I could provide facts. I don't see a contradiction to what you or I said.
Had a friend who went on a river boat casino roughly 3 years ago and had his $100 bills confiscated because their markers didn't work on his money. He did eventually get his money back and the bills were legit. Not sure if the new hundreds are not able to be marked or if they had to come up with a new marker.
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I see this whenever I use a $100 or $50 dollar bill.... I do have my own counterfeit detection pen(s), though I usually do not have them with me. Since I will only take fifties or hundreds from a bank or CU, I really am not concerned with getting a bad bill. If I were running a yard sale though, I would have my pen with me for sure. Or any other 'sell' operation where I would be taking money from the public... there are a lot of bad bills around. Cheers, RickO
i agree but there just covering (the bill) and thier butts
Some places have a machine with a light that scans it now....no marker needed.
Would it be correct to say that our currency is a type of felt, rather than cloth?
That may be a question for a currency collector. I would think that a anti-counterfeiting pen mark would warrant a "details" type designation if it were to be holdered by a TPG.
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@Insider2 "If I were rich, I'd collect the $100 bills with the different characters stamped on them. I think it has to do with drug money - sort of like a chop for ownership or counting. Any ideas?"
You don't need to be rich. Just collect copies of the stamps. I think that I've documented 100+ different so far.
It's probably more foreign banks stamps of authenticity but some might be drug cartels (or banks that launder drug money). Who is going to do some research and write a catalog? I'll offer my copies as a start. Most seem to be from the Middle East or East with Arabic or Asian characters.
And, no the counterfeit detection pens don't bother me. More than 99% of circulating $100s are destined for destruction and replacement anyway. Far more paper money is used and replaced in circulation than coins, so why care if a small percentage of it is defaced before being destroyed anyway?
That's a neat idea. We could add gang insignia currency too.
Definitely a nerve for me. But, no offense intended or taken on my part. This is just one of the few topics where I feel compelled to rant a bit in case anyone wants to listen.
Also, FWIW, as I understand it, some of those counterfeit detection pens do not work on older currency (such as from the 1950s or before). I think the basic paper formula is the same or similar, but maybe the binders or other additives were changed slightly later on.
No, it doesn't bother me. Counterfeit money is a problem, and you can't blame store owers for doing what they can to avoid getting stuck with it. You definitely can't blame the employee. It's their job.
Some stores won't take large bills for that reason. I thought that was illega since the bills are legal tender and offering them in payment satisfies the debt according to the law, but I guess there is an exception.
It's better to have your payment accepted than rejected because of "No bills accepted over $50 or $100" rule.
What about all the "Where's George" bills that are stamped? LOL....
They even have a specific way to enter the bill if it has a star.
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This is one of the key cases that helps define the issue.
Originally the Secret Service came snooping around the Where's George office. The WG person successfully argued that the stampings did not render the bills unsuitable for reissuance (circulation) so they were deemed to not be a violation of laws against defacing currency.
The only complaint the SS had was that he WG website was selling the rubber stamps and therefore the www.WheresGeorge.com marking might be construed as advertising a commercial venture, so he agreed to stop selling them (you can get them made at your local office supply or copy store).
@JBK said: "Cotton or linen fibers are not cloth. They can be spun into thread and then woven into cloth, but until then they are just fibers.
Fun project: Take some old colored (red, blue, green) postage stamps and a one dollar bill and shred them in a blender of water with some finely cut white cotton sheets and paper. Construct a wooden frame a place a fine screen over it. When you've mad a batch of the "slurry," put it into a large plastic container and submerge the screen until it has a coating of the slurry. Let it dry and carefully peel of the sheet. Makes beautiful "paper" no matter what was used to make it. There should be a detailed method in a video on the internet about papermaking.
Cloth or paper is the finished product - cotton or linen fibers are a raw material.
Flour is not a cake or bread or pancakes, but it is used to make those things.
I would love to make some paper sometime - good idea. (I knew those old stamps would be good for something someday.)
The pen is not a good tool to determine if Bill's are counterfeit. It checks the paper or linen the note is printed on. I have had people bring Bill's to my 7-11 store and they are fake but the pen says there real. People bleach a 5 dollar bill and imprint a 50 or 100 on it with a printer if you use the pen it will say it's real so yea pens are useless anymore.
HAPPY COLLECTING
so to pass bills off you need to replace the pens.
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A problem with the counterfeit detecting pens is that they will not detect a raised bill.
These are likely more common in circulation than actual counterfeits.
Yes. Unfortunately, this is not as high as other things on my list that bothers me... Perhaps the coinkat list of what is truly annoying is long overdue.
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How do you feel about Polymer Currency which would make the pens obsolete ?
Here is a copy and paste from the Wikipedia page. Lots of countries have adopted Polymer Notes. Once again we, the US, are behind the times.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymer_banknote
Polymer banknotes are banknotes made from a polymer such as biaxially oriented polypropylene (BOPP). Such notes incorporate many security features not available in paper banknotes, including the use of metameric inks.[1] Polymer banknotes last significantly longer than paper notes, causing a decrease in environmental impact and a reduced cost of production and replacement.[2] Modern polymer banknotes were first developed by the Reserve Bank of Australia (RBA), Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO) and The University of Melbourne. They were first issued as currency in Australia during 1988 (coinciding with Australia's bicentennial year). In 1996 Australia switched completely to polymer banknotes. Other countries that have switched completely to polymer banknotes include; Brunei, Malaysia, Canada, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, Romania and Vietnam. The latest countries to introduce polymer banknotes into general circulation include: the United Kingdom, Nigeria, Cape Verde, Chile, The Gambia, Nicaragua, Trinidad and Tobago, Mexico, Maldives, Mauritania, Botswana, São Tomé and Príncipe, the Republic of Macedonia and the Russian Federation.
I prefer to think of us as "nostalgic".
If you really want to mess with their minds, hand them some $2 bills, a couple of Ike dollars and an SBA or two.
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Bills with pen or marker writing on them doesn't bother me. If anyone has bills like that that really bother them you can send them to me
Lafayette Grading Set
The primary purpose of coins and paper money, other than those pieces that are made for collectors, is to be used in commerce. Whatever happens to them there is normal wear and tear for the most part and is to be expected. That includes counterfeit detection pen marks.
Only thing that bothers me is when I receive dollar bills in
change that have my name and phone # on it.
Unless you put them on the dollar and spent it somewhere far away. Then got the same dollar in change right in your neighborhood. That would freak me out.
True!!! I forgot all about those. I haven't seen as many as there were 10 years ago though. Sometimes those were stamped more than once or twice and on both sides!!!!
Does your list have to do with coins? If not, we'd have to start a whole new forum just for annoying things!!!!!!!
I love doing that, cashiers are stumped with that variety, especially foreign cashiers!!!!!! Just a couple days ago, I passed off a Kennedy half and that confused the cashier!!!!
We could get used to it, just as long as they don't change the sizes.....some of the foreign currency is so small. Bring back the horse blankets!!!! Now that's nostalgic!!!