@jmlanzaf said:
The government taking a Deist position clearly establishes a belief in or acceptance of the Deist position...to the detriment of non-Deists.
The Constitution says the government can not create a religion, it doesn't say the government can not participate in religion.
So the way the establishment clause protects the citizens is basically making it illegal to pass a law strictly on religious grounds.
As an example, the Supreme Court tossed out sodomy laws because the only justification for such laws were to try to force somebody from "committing a sin".
Normally I would run from this topic but the motto is on approximately 50 zillion coins.
Please make no assumptions about my beliefs for what I am about to say but I think it is important to always look at both sides.
The IGWT statement simply is not true. Even if it's only 10% that don't believe in God that's over 30 million citizens in this country. They are a part of WE or you are saying they don't count or they don't matter.
Successful BST deals with mustangt and jesbroken. Now EVERYTHING is for sale.
@Icollecteverything said:
Normally I would run from this topic but the motto is on approximately 50 zillion coins.
Please make no assumptions about my beliefs for what I am about to say but I think it is important to always look at both sides.
The IGWT statement simply is not true. Even if it's only 10% that don't believe in God that's over 30 million citizens in this country. They are a part of WE or you are saying they don't count or they don't matter.
Of course, not everyone believes they came from monkeys. And for that, I exclude myself from that part of.........WE.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
This "discussion" has been repeated over and over.
I honestly don't understand why people get in an uproar that it is on coinage.
It's some words that mean something to some people, and nothing to others. It really does not harm anyway. Most people in the US today probably don't even realize it is on money as they use electronic means for so much.
People that sue to get rid of things because it has been there but it "offends" them, need to be held liable for ALL costs when they lose.
People that want to get in p*ssing matches with others about coins and religion need to get a life, imho. There is just so much faux outrage these days that it is sickening.
@FadeToBlack said:
I'm an atheist. Just because some take a hard line stance is no reason to demonize all of us. I don't compare you guys to the freakin' Amish...
I hope Joseph and Ezekiel aren't reading this.
"May the silver waves that bear you heavenward be filled with love’s whisperings"
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
@Icollecteverything said:
Normally I would run from this topic but the motto is on approximately 50 zillion coins.
Please make no assumptions about my beliefs for what I am about to say but I think it is important to always look at both sides.
The IGWT statement simply is not true. Even if it's only 10% that don't believe in God that's over 30 million citizens in this country. They are a part of WE or you are saying they don't count or they don't matter.
Of course, not everyone believes they came from monkeys. And for that, I exclude myself from that part of.........WE.
Leo
Came from monkeys or ARE monkeys?
"May the silver waves that bear you heavenward be filled with love’s whisperings"
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
@Icollecteverything said:
Normally I would run from this topic but the motto is on approximately 50 zillion coins.
Please make no assumptions about my beliefs for what I am about to say but I think it is important to always look at both sides.
The IGWT statement simply is not true. Even if it's only 10% that don't believe in God that's over 30 million citizens in this country. They are a part of WE or you are saying they don't count or they don't matter.
Of course, not everyone believes they came from monkeys. And for that, I exclude myself from that part of.........WE.
Leo
Humans didn't come from monkeys. Humans and monkeys came from a common ancestor.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Voltaire: Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero.
@hookooekoo said:
The Constitution says the government can not create a religion, it doesn't say the government can not participate in religion.
I think I found a U.S. Supreme Court opinion that seems to essentially say what I was trying to say above:
"The course of constitutional neutrality in this area cannot be an absolutely straight line; rigidity could well defeat the basic purpose of these provisions, which is to insure that no religion be sponsored or favored, none commanded, and none inhibited. The general principle deducible from the First Amendment and all that has been said by the Court is this: that we will not tolerate either governmentally established religion or governmental interference with religion. Short of those expressly proscribed governmental acts there is room for play in the joints productive of a benevolent neutrality which will permit religious exercise to exist without sponsorship and without interference.
@Icollecteverything said:
Normally I would run from this topic but the motto is on approximately 50 zillion coins.
Please make no assumptions about my beliefs for what I am about to say but I think it is important to always look at both sides.
The IGWT statement simply is not true. Even if it's only 10% that don't believe in God that's over 30 million citizens in this country. They are a part of WE or you are saying they don't count or they don't matter.
Of course, not everyone believes they came from monkeys. And for that, I exclude myself from that part of.........WE.
Leo
Humans didn't come from monkeys. Humans and monkeys came from a common ancestor.
Does make me ponder which one progressed the most and the monkey wins hands down.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
@Icollecteverything said:
Normally I would run from this topic but the motto is on approximately 50 zillion coins.
Please make no assumptions about my beliefs for what I am about to say but I think it is important to always look at both sides.
The IGWT statement simply is not true. Even if it's only 10% that don't believe in God that's over 30 million citizens in this country. They are a part of WE or you are saying they don't count or they don't matter.
Of course, not everyone believes they came from monkeys. And for that, I exclude myself from that part of.........WE.
Leo
Humans didn't come from monkeys. Humans and monkeys came from a common ancestor.
Does make me ponder which one progressed the most and the monkey wins hands down.
They are way ahead. In their natural habitat they stick to an organic vegan diet and don't hand over 20% of their production to the medical community.
@WingedLiberty1957 said:
Would you feel the same if it said "In Allah We Trust"? I still think it's much better to keep church and state separated and not pick winners and losers on a national/federal level based on one specific ancient myth with zero evidence, where there are thousands of ancient myths to choose from.
God strikes me as an incredibly generic term and could be applied to any number of monotheistic religions. I also doubt that 95% of the population even notices its presence on the coin.
@WingedLiberty1957 said:
Would you feel the same if it said "In Allah We Trust"? I still think it's much better to keep church and state separated and not pick winners and losers on a national/federal level based on one specific ancient myth with zero evidence, where there are thousands of ancient myths to choose from.
God strikes me as an incredibly generic term and could be applied to any number of monotheistic religions. I also doubt that 95% of the population even notices its presence on the coin.
One could argue that the motto establishes a monotheistic religion while simultaneously disregarding mult-itheistic and non-theistic views.
@Insider2 said: @jmlanzaf said: "The government taking **a Deist position **clearly establishes a belief in or acceptance of the Deist position...to the detriment of non-Deists.
IMO, you have your tenses mixed up. The government did not take a position at a particular time with a "motto," what it did was affirm and recognize the ORIGINAL position of the importance of a Deity as involved with the founding of our country.
Having some form of a God does not effect an atheist in the least. AFAIK, there is only one "Religion" at this time that persecutes "non-believers." If seeing the word "God" on a coin offends someone, they need to get a life after visiting a doctor.
My tenses are perfectly correct. And, in fact, you misstate the history of the motto. The motto was suggested to during the Civil War as a necessary statement of belief. It was meant to establish that the U.S. was not a heathen nation, so it does in its history attempt to "establish" the U.S. as a deist nation.
The Constitution does not require that anyone be seriously offended or inconvenienced. It only demands that there be no Establishment, not an inconvenient Establishment.
Again, I don't really care about the motto myself, but that is different than saying that the Constitution permits it. I personally wouldn't care if the currency said "Satan be praised", but a lot of other people would disagree.
Not that it matters but I agree with most of your post. Thanks for the history lesson. Actually I would not care when or why the motto was put on coins EXCEPT for the numismatic significance.
The ONLY reason I bother to post in this thread is to inform misguided folks that they do not know what the Establishment Clause is Except for the misguided OPINION (that has now taken hold) of a court judge that "smoked-up" the issue. Until a person goes back to the original papers from the founders they CANNOT and NEVER Will understand. There is no reference to anything approaching :"The separation of church and state" in the Constitution! Our country was founded on a Deity. It is spelled out on Parchment and in stone all over our Federal buildings. Folks who wish to destroy this country and what it stands for MUST separate the state from a Deity. They have been at it for a long, long, time. The evidence of their success is all over the TV every night.
PS When a chemist (?) and a coin authenticator write about the law, consider most of it is a joke until you do some research for yourselves.
While technically I'm an atheist, I've grown to dislike the term. Debates and court cases like this have come to imply that atheist is an ACTIVE DEFIANCE of religion. The term doesn't imply or require that at all!
I'm more of a passive atheist. "Believe and practice whatever you like. Just don't adversely impact my life, and I only ask that you give me the same curtesy."
And you have to stretch believability to an extreme amount to claim a few words on a coin are adversely impacting your life. I don't even mind if the 10 Commandments are posted in the courthouse....as long as you allow other religions basic tenants to be displayed along side. I think it would make for a fairly good display of the moral background of our laws!
Sure, if we were deciding TODAY whether to add such a motto to our coinage, I'd be fairly strongly opposed. Why rock the boat? But the history is there, and the inertia is in place. I don't think I'd want to be "the guy", whether it be a President, or treasury secretary, or judge, who tried to stop the inertia. Some people would freak out. (Why rock the boat?)
Not all that long ago, the California flag "had" to be changed. There was a little building with a cross on it, indicating the importance of the early Catholic Missions in the history of the state. Well, that cross apparently wasn't acceptable. Why? Are we going to retroactively decide that the Catholic Missions didn't exist? Or that they weren't Christians?
Oh well, some people just refuse to be happy.....They'll find something to complain about....
Not all that long ago, the California flag "had" to be changed. There was a little building with a cross on it, indicating the importance of the early Catholic Missions in the history of the state. Well, that cross apparently wasn't acceptable. Why? Are we going to retroactively decide that the Catholic Missions didn't exist? Or that they weren't Christians?
Oh well, some people just refuse to be happy.....They'll find something to complain about....
Um what are you talking about, we have a Grizzly Bear Flag
Fake, false, untrue narratives are getting really old .......
I am catching up sorry guys. I have the plate so I am a fan, but I heard it was put on the money as a means to make it easier to get folks to accept it as being acceptable and having authority.
Not all that long ago, the California flag "had" to be changed. There was a little building with a cross on it, indicating the importance of the early Catholic Missions in the history of the state. Well, that cross apparently wasn't acceptable. Why? Are we going to retroactively decide that the Catholic Missions didn't exist? Or that they weren't Christians?
Oh well, some people just refuse to be happy.....They'll find something to complain about....
Um what are you talking about, we have a Grizzly Bear Flag
Fake, false, untrue narratives are getting really old .......
Oh, don't have a cow. After a little research, (instead of my memory), it was the seal of the city of Los Angeles:
Old and New:
Could have sworn the original had a building and cross....but memories are like that.....
Added: And to make me look even better, it's the COUNTY of Los Angeles, not city. sigh
@BryceM said:
I really don’t care if the motto is on our coins or not. I’m comfortable in my beliefs and will fight vigorously for your right to believe in the same thing, something else, or nothing at all. I just find it interesting that it bothers some people enough that they would expend time and effort to pursue it through our legal system. They obviously have more free time and money than I do.
Maybe it should be modified to say “In God Most of us Trvst.”
Do most people believe? I am not so sure about that. If people really believed in all powerful space men, I would suspect they would do more walking the walk instead of talking the talk to keep them happy. Not to mention these Gods wouldn’t keep changing the rules to adapt to society.
From what I see is mostly people saying tired tropes to societally fit in and then do what they want, how they want. confident that the ever changing definition of religious compliance will come down to their level. And it typically does
Society is better off with various religions placating the masses but that doesn’t make the old fables true.
Reminds me to ponder number six of Cicero's "Six Mistakes of Man"
Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
@BryceM said:
I really don’t care if the motto is on our coins or not. I’m comfortable in my beliefs and will fight vigorously for your right to believe in the same thing, something else, or nothing at all. I just find it interesting that it bothers some people enough that they would expend time and effort to pursue it through our legal system. They obviously have more free time and money than I do.
Maybe it should be modified to say “In God Most of us Trvst.”
Do most people believe? I am not so sure about that. If people really believed in all powerful space men, I would suspect they would do more walking the walk instead of talking the talk to keep them happy. Not to mention these Gods wouldn’t keep changing the rules to adapt to society.
From what I see is mostly people saying tired tropes to societally fit in and then do what they want, how they want. confident that the ever changing definition of religious compliance will come down to their level. And it typically does
Society is better off with various religions placating the masses but that doesn’t make the old fables true.
Reminds me to ponder number six of Cicero's "Six Mistakes of Man"
Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
I wouldn't care, especially if it had history with our coinage.
It doesn't, however, and IGWT does, doesn't it.
I'm not about radical changes just to have radical changes. And, that is what this always gets down to.
I'll say again.....most people that don't collect coins don't know it is there...especially younger people. It is only those that want to have some faux outrage that seem to have problems with it and want to push their own views on the majority. Just like Christmas decorations in parks/schools/etc. It's gone way too far and people let themselves get bullied into removing things that haven't harmed anyone (Christmas decorations didn't harm people so don't say they did...nor has IGWT on coinage).
Comments
100
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
The Constitution says the government can not create a religion, it doesn't say the government can not participate in religion.
So the way the establishment clause protects the citizens is basically making it illegal to pass a law strictly on religious grounds.
As an example, the Supreme Court tossed out sodomy laws because the only justification for such laws were to try to force somebody from "committing a sin".
Today if you own a bakery you can put up your sign " We reserve the RIGHT to refuse service to anybody "
Then who made Budweiser?
Normally I would run from this topic but the motto is on approximately 50 zillion coins.
Please make no assumptions about my beliefs for what I am about to say but I think it is important to always look at both sides.
The IGWT statement simply is not true. Even if it's only 10% that don't believe in God that's over 30 million citizens in this country. They are a part of WE or you are saying they don't count or they don't matter.
Successful BST deals with mustangt and jesbroken. Now EVERYTHING is for sale.
Of course, not everyone believes they came from monkeys. And for that, I exclude myself from that part of.........WE.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
This "discussion" has been repeated over and over.
I honestly don't understand why people get in an uproar that it is on coinage.
It's some words that mean something to some people, and nothing to others. It really does not harm anyway. Most people in the US today probably don't even realize it is on money as they use electronic means for so much.
People that sue to get rid of things because it has been there but it "offends" them, need to be held liable for ALL costs when they lose.
People that want to get in p*ssing matches with others about coins and religion need to get a life, imho. There is just so much faux outrage these days that it is sickening.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I hope Joseph and Ezekiel aren't reading this.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Came from monkeys or ARE monkeys?
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
I want to go to the beach just stay out of the water.
Hoard the keys.
Humans didn't come from monkeys. Humans and monkeys came from a common ancestor.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Voltaire: Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero.
I think I found a U.S. Supreme Court opinion that seems to essentially say what I was trying to say above:
"The course of constitutional neutrality in this area cannot be an absolutely straight line; rigidity could well defeat the basic purpose of these provisions, which is to insure that no religion be sponsored or favored, none commanded, and none inhibited. The general principle deducible from the First Amendment and all that has been said by the Court is this: that we will not tolerate either governmentally established religion or governmental interference with religion. Short of those expressly proscribed governmental acts there is room for play in the joints productive of a benevolent neutrality which will permit religious exercise to exist without sponsorship and without interference.
https://openjurist.org/432/f2d/242/aronow-v-united-states
Does make me ponder which one progressed the most and the monkey wins hands down.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
They are way ahead. In their natural habitat they stick to an organic vegan diet and don't hand over 20% of their production to the medical community.
Were there dinosaurs on the ark?
ColonolJessup might recall.
God strikes me as an incredibly generic term and could be applied to any number of monotheistic religions. I also doubt that 95% of the population even notices its presence on the coin.
Put a Darwin Fish on the coins and see how bad the "uproar" gets.
One could argue that the motto establishes a monotheistic religion while simultaneously disregarding mult-itheistic and non-theistic views.
Not that it matters but I agree with most of your post. Thanks for the history lesson. Actually I would not care when or why the motto was put on coins EXCEPT for the numismatic significance.
The ONLY reason I bother to post in this thread is to inform misguided folks that they do not know what the Establishment Clause is Except for the misguided OPINION (that has now taken hold) of a court judge that "smoked-up" the issue. Until a person goes back to the original papers from the founders they CANNOT and NEVER Will understand. There is no reference to anything approaching :"The separation of church and state" in the Constitution! Our country was founded on a Deity. It is spelled out on Parchment and in stone all over our Federal buildings. Folks who wish to destroy this country and what it stands for MUST separate the state from a Deity. They have been at it for a long, long, time. The evidence of their success is all over the TV every night.
PS When a chemist (?) and a coin authenticator write about the law, consider most of it is a joke until you do some research for yourselves.
While technically I'm an atheist, I've grown to dislike the term. Debates and court cases like this have come to imply that atheist is an ACTIVE DEFIANCE of religion. The term doesn't imply or require that at all!
I'm more of a passive atheist. "Believe and practice whatever you like. Just don't adversely impact my life, and I only ask that you give me the same curtesy."
And you have to stretch believability to an extreme amount to claim a few words on a coin are adversely impacting your life. I don't even mind if the 10 Commandments are posted in the courthouse....as long as you allow other religions basic tenants to be displayed along side. I think it would make for a fairly good display of the moral background of our laws!
Sure, if we were deciding TODAY whether to add such a motto to our coinage, I'd be fairly strongly opposed. Why rock the boat? But the history is there, and the inertia is in place. I don't think I'd want to be "the guy", whether it be a President, or treasury secretary, or judge, who tried to stop the inertia. Some people would freak out. (Why rock the boat?)
Not all that long ago, the California flag "had" to be changed. There was a little building with a cross on it, indicating the importance of the early Catholic Missions in the history of the state. Well, that cross apparently wasn't acceptable. Why? Are we going to retroactively decide that the Catholic Missions didn't exist? Or that they weren't Christians?
Oh well, some people just refuse to be happy.....They'll find something to complain about....
Um what are you talking about, we have a Grizzly Bear Flag
Fake, false, untrue narratives are getting really old .......
I am catching up sorry guys. I have the plate so I am a fan, but I heard it was put on the money as a means to make it easier to get folks to accept it as being acceptable and having authority.
Works for me.
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
Oh, don't have a cow. After a little research, (instead of my memory), it was the seal of the city of Los Angeles:
Old and New:
Could have sworn the original had a building and cross....but memories are like that.....
Added: And to make me look even better, it's the COUNTY of Los Angeles, not city. sigh
Thank you for the clarification. I appreciate it.
I never go to LA and could care less nor even knew about LA's seal. But that said, the mission is way more appropriate to California.
The state flag is kinda important.
What @TommyType was likely referring to:
latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-la-county-seal-cross-20160407-story.html
Gonna get me a $50 Octagonal someday. Some. Day.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
me. The evidence of their success is all over the TV every night.
LOL. This!
Reminds me to ponder number six of Cicero's "Six Mistakes of Man"
Boom!
Nailed it.
I wouldn't care, especially if it had history with our coinage.
It doesn't, however, and IGWT does, doesn't it.
I'm not about radical changes just to have radical changes. And, that is what this always gets down to.
I'll say again.....most people that don't collect coins don't know it is there...especially younger people. It is only those that want to have some faux outrage that seem to have problems with it and want to push their own views on the majority. Just like Christmas decorations in parks/schools/etc. It's gone way too far and people let themselves get bullied into removing things that haven't harmed anyone (Christmas decorations didn't harm people so don't say they did...nor has IGWT on coinage).
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment