Options
Does a "sticker" imply that a coin is genuine?
291fifth
Posts: 25,206 ✭✭✭✭✭
If a counterfeit coin is certified genuine and graded by a TPG and then receives a "sticker" from a third party does the third party also assume liability? Has this ever been known to have happened?
This question is inspired by the recent discussions regarding high quality counterfeit large cents that have apparently made their way into TPG holders.
All glory is fleeting.
2
Comments
The major "grading companies" were formed to authenticate and grade coins. They still authenticate coins as their most important role; grading is a mere sideline that has taken over.
By most of the companies' policies, encapsulating a coin is also affirming its authenticity. If anyone else adds something to the outside of the slab it is only incidental. Authentication cannot be performed on an encapsulated coin or medal.
Interesting question; I am not aware of one of the slabbed counterfeits having a CAC bean. It would be interesting to submit one though...
From CAC's web site:
WHAT THE CAC STICKER MEANS:
• Verified. Your coin has been verified as meeting the standard for strict quality within its grade.
• Guaranteed. CAC stands behind our verification by making markets in most actively traded coins
Good post, and responses so far.
If CAC were to sticker a counterfeit, IMO the liability would still be on the TPGS.
Some ancient history. In the beginning, when an authentication service was of the opinion that a counterfeit was genuine, the service had no liability at all! They requested a reexamination and if a mistake was originally made they refunded the original fee and learned something from their error. There was no animosity toward the Service.
To my knowledge, the ONLY time one of the early authentication services was threatened with a lawsuit occurred at the first third-party coin grading service. When INSAB the second authentication service in the U.S. started to render an opinion of a coin's grade (at no extra cost) with the authentication, one of the biggest dealers in the country tried to end the grading service. As I posted in the past, nothing resulted from the threat because at a later date the ANA announced that they were going to start grading coins also.
It is too bad that the present TPGS's did not stress that they were only giving their "best opinion." Possibly, the folks at that level considered their opinions to be infallible!
I don't believe the sticker folks guarantee much of anything. They certainly can't guarantee authenticity as they can't even weigh the coin. Given that PCGS guarantees the coin, it is easy to sticker it and offer to buy it because if it ends up coming back badly the sticker folks can simply use the PCGS guarantee as insurance.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
The professional coin authenticators I know stopped weighing coins in the 1970's. AFAIK, it is rarely done today either. Any "decent" counterfeit is of the correct standard weight. IMHO, any professional authenticator at CAC or anywhere else including any top-quality dealer specialist can spot a counterfeit in a slab much of the time w/o the need to weigh it.
I will give you this, some of the PL Chinese gold counterfeits I've seen in counterfeit TPGS slabs are very hard to detect because both the coin and the slab are very well executed. I'm not going to crack any of mine out to check the weight. I suspect their SpGr is "off."
I didn't mean to imply that authenticators were weighing them literally. But the point is (was?) that other than die characteristics, there are a lot of tests (weighing, SG, some X-ray) that can't be done in the slab. If I were writing the guarantee, I would not guarantee a coin that I couldn't handle more intimately.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Thankfully for all of us, we are still at a point where none of these tests are necessary for the majority of coins. There are professionals who are testing and recording the alloy composition for coins. It's about time as the prices for these tests have come down.
It is unfortunate that this was not done more in the 1970's when for example, most Chinese silver Crowns went begging!
I'm still waiting for the counterfeit CAC
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I think the "none of those tests are necessary" is a circular argument. We don't know what we don't know. Break the circle to increase "the know."
I'm not.
Thankfully, the TPGS's and CAC have provided us a way to detect products that are altered or not genuine.
Here's a true story. Local coin store has an XRF gun. [I want one!]. They got in a 1 oz gold eagle in all original government packaging from another dealer. They then returned it to that dealer because it registered 0.999 on the gun and they interpreted that to mean it was gold plated.
Now, I'm thinking it could be a wrong planchet error - AGE on a Buffalo planchet. Thoughts?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
There are known TPG and stickered counterfeit coins. One of them has been featured in Coin World or Numismatic News (I forget which it was in). I’ve seen that particular coin in hand.
Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com
CN eBay
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
ANACS was weighing coins when I started there in 1978 and still weighing coins when I left in 1984.
Interesting topic !!!
Great, I didn't even think of counterfeit slabs, it makes sense, fake coin in a fake slab. Yikes.
If I'm not mistaken, you all did that as one way to ID them for their internal records along with a photograph. If you guys were weighing coins to determine they were authentic...
It is the simplest 1st hurdle....
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Stickers only guarantee what your eating is really a Banana.
For coins the TPG service that slabbed it carries the authenticity guarantee.
It would be a hell of a lot easier to hit the CAC bid and let them deal with the TPG’s for a refund.
Latin American Collection
As I posted above, it is only a way to ID the coin and a pain in the neck!
With experience, you don't need to weigh a coin to authenticate it. This depends a lot on a person's field of expertise. At the moment there are folks who believe that contemporary counterfeit coins from certain countries have infiltrated the market for decades as genuine examples. We are studying them and I've been weighing and taking the SG of every one I can. Knowledge of even that could depress the value of genuine pieces. Others are doing an analysis of the alloys with some interesting results. In this case weighing a coin would be helpfull.
PS I've worked with an authenticator who will pick up an "across-the-room" piece of crap counterfeit and weigh it. So sad.
Seems there are clearly separate questions that have been asked... And they need to remain separate
The first is... Does a "sticker" imply that a coin is genuine? Seems that the answer would be yes mainly by implication that it stickered. And that seems reasonable unless there is a disclaimer which on its face would seem to defeat the purpose of seeking a sticker it the first place.
Seeking a sticker and obtaining one really should not change the guarantee offered by the TPG as the coin has not been removed from the holder. So any liability should not pass through from the TPG to the stickering entity.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
There is no legal liability with an opinion, even one paid for.
Stickers are just another opinion.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
If you consider a TPG slabbed and labeled coin an opinion I disagree; all 4 of the top TPG's guarantee authenticity at this time. I have been involved in buy-backs of these latest struck slabbed counterfeits with 2 of them in "coin" values ranging from $700 to $14K.
I meant legal liability, edited earlier post to clarify.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
Did CAC ever sticker any of the micro o Morgans that PCGS determined to be fakes?
I would have done more homework - check the specific gravity, weigh the piece and measure diameter and thickness. Could have been a valuable find.
$700 to $14K. Now that is scary.
Does a license plate mean your car is real?
The TPG guarantee handles this.
If I read the CAC information correctly, their sticker implies their opinion of the labeled grade... a green sticker implies agreement, no sticker = disagreement, gold sticker = disagreement and the opinion is that the coin is better than graded. I see no information stating authenticity is guaranteed. Cheers, RickO
A coin or medal can be authenticated by visual examination, comparison with known specimens, historical documentation, and physical measurements. All of these should be available and used, as needed, to determine authenticity.
Would any TPG or reputable numismatist risk their reputation by cutting corners?
That's when weighing the coin would be very helpful!
My YouTube Channel
Anyone heard if a submitted coin was determined by CAC to be not authentic and if so how was it handled?
Just to correct the record: I was the first person to determine the Micro "O" counterfeits were counterfeit based on a single BU example sent to PCI for the "Signature" label. Later, I was unable to convince a prominent dollar expert the coins were C/F when he sent me several lower grade coins to examine. I agreed not to publish anything about the fakes without including him. The depression next to the "O" mintmark was the only obvious "marker" left on all the coins.
After joining NCG in the late 1990's, I was able to convince them the coins were fake and they stopped certifying them immediately! All this happened long before PCGS wrote the excellent summary of the coins with die linkages. Since them many more of these interesting counterfeits have been discovered.
Most are in low grade so I don't think they would have been sent to CAC.
CAC stickers low grades.
Right. And if they don't have a bid, just send it to the TPG.
But if push came to shove one day, perhaps because the TPG is no longer in business or has voided its guaranty, no, I don't think that CAC guarantees authenticity.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Imply? Yes.
Guarantee? No. As has been said the TPG guarantee would cover this, but I would be willing to bet that JA would facilitate making things right.
Perhaps I'm just a cheap old fart but none of the low grade "Micro O" fakes in my collection are worth even getting slabbed (I get a discount) much less paying for a bean.
That was my point.
If they're counterfeit will any reputable grading service grade and slab them?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Probably not anymore. They'd likely prefer that you send them in to be unslabbed and removed from the marketplace.
Don't they have their own VAM number assigned from before they were discovered to be fake? I'm guessing a VAM collector would want one for his collection.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Actually yes. These coins were slabbed and graded by everyone (including the one I said was a counterfeit at PCI). Now the rest of the story:
Over thirty years ago, before slabs, when a coin was determined to be counterfeit, it was taken off the market. Unfortunately, that is no longer the case. So much money was invested in these coins as genuine pieces that the "market" turned its head and embraced them. Some were turned in to the TPGS per their guarantees but most have been kept and treasured as contemporary counterfeits. Their high prices reflect this. Win/win and their value stayed high, the VAM's continued, etc.
AFAIK, ICG is the only company that grades them and slabs them but I could be wrong as they do have a VAM#
What does ICG show on the label? Does it say "Contemporary Counterfeit" or do they say "Restrike" like the major grading services use for the Fugio counterfeits euphemistically referred to as the "New Haven Restrike" produced 75 years after the originals?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire