Questions about toning and it’s long term effects.

divecchia · May 23, 2018 8:55AM

The thread that @keets started “Maybe a fun thread about tone.” got me thinking about toning and the long term effects it may have on coins. So I have a couple of questions and I did not want to derail the other thread.

Is anyone worried about the long term effects that the toning will have on their coins surface?
Once the coins are graded and encapsulated, will the toning remain stable if stored in a proper environment or will the coins keep changing color or get darker to where the toning looks like dark crud on the surface?

Please let me know your thoughts (good or bad).

Thanks, Donato

keets · May 23, 2018 9:03AM

as long as there are no contaminants physically on a coin and it isn't exposed to elements which will tone it(air, water) it should remain relatively stable. I have had coins in TPG capsules for well over a decade that haven't changed. we have all seen TPG holdered brilliant coins that have been like that for 30 years, unchanged. I have also had coins stored in other ways that are stable. some have changed, even in a PCGS capsule, stored in the same box as the aforementioned coins. that leads me to believe that there was still contaminants on the coin surface and it continued to react with the metal. perhaps the simplest and cheapest way to store coins safely is a box in a Saflip.

bolivarshagnasty · May 23, 2018 9:10AM

Some toning will remain stable after taking the coin out of a bad environment. I have seen other toning continue to progress even after being encapsulated in a PCGS holder. I do worry when I see a favorite toner progressing in a holder. Don't want to hold on until it is terminal. If I had to take a wild guess as to the percentage that continue to tone, I would put it at less than 10 percent.

'86 Silver Eagle

'86 Silver Eagle two years later

divecchia · May 23, 2018 1:26PM

The replies thus far give me some prospective on toning. So basically as long as the contaminants have been removed from the coin the toning should be stable, but if the contaminant is still there and then you add air and humidity and the coin reaction continues.

Thanks for the replies. Donato

ACop · May 23, 2018 1:42PM

The TPGs should offer acetone baths, properly done, as an option, for a fee of course. I would send a lot of coins in old holders if they did.

Timbuk3 · May 23, 2018 1:57PM

Interesting !!!

Paradisefound · May 23, 2018 8:35PM

According to some toning is the degrading phase of the metal due to environment. Is this mean the so called toning will eventually heading to some degree..... a stage of destruction?
@divecchia said:

The replies thus far give me some prospective on toning. So basically as long as the contaminants have been removed from the coin the toning should be stable, but if the contaminant is still there and then you add air and humidity and the coin reaction continues.

Thanks for the replies. Donato

Paradisefound · May 23, 2018 8:37PM

I may get grilled on this by some rainbow lovers

Justacommeman · May 23, 2018 8:44PM

In almost every case I wish my coins would tone a little more. But they don't

mark

jmlanzaf · May 23, 2018 11:47PM

@divecchia said:
The replies thus far give me some prospective on toning. So basically as long as the contaminants have been removed from the coin the toning should be stable, but if the contaminant is still there and then you add air and humidity and the coin reaction continues.

Thanks for the replies. Donato

This is NOT exactly true. Toning is due to "contaminants" in a sense, but those contaminants include things like oxygen and sulfur which are naturally in the air. A silver surface with no foreign substances on it WILL tone if exposed to air for long enough. Slabs will slow this process down by limiting air contact, but they will not stop it completely.

Things like intercept shield boxes will slow it down even further. They are designed to be somewhat air tight and contained a sacrificial anode which preferentially reacted with the oxygen and sulfur, protecting the coin by "sacrificing" itself. [Your traditional tank hot water heater has a magnesium strip in it that does the same thing to protect the tank.] And keeping it at lower temperatures will also slow things down, so avoid hot climates.

ricko · May 24, 2018 5:18AM

Tarnish is a chemical reaction of the silver with sulfur, oxygen, temperature etc.. Yes, it does affect the surface of the coin since the chemicals are bonding with the silver. If enough chemical is present, and conditions are right, tarnish will progress to terminal black color. Tarnish is environmental damage. Many people like the colors that are evoked as the process goes on - and indeed, pay premiums for such coins. Often, slabbed coins will maintain their state if the contamination is already chemically complete and no further material is available. Remember that slabs are not airtight, so it is possible, in the right environment, for more contaminants to be introduced (i.e. temperature changes promote air pressure movement). Metallurgy is an interesting topic and I recommend coin collectors pursue study in this area. I have had several courses in the topic and really enjoyed them. Cheers, RickO

BillJones · May 24, 2018 6:11AM

Natural toning is a protective layer on the coin, and if the coin is stored properly, most collectors should never see a change over their lifetimes. I suppose if one were to view a coin over a few hundred years, they might be see a change in the lighter forms of natural toning.

Artificial toning and dip residue can be a problem, sometimes a BIG problem, because sometimes it doesn’t stop. In the bad cases it can tone a silver coin black, turn a copper coin progressively darker. In the worst cases it can literally eat the coin. I’ve seen this a few times.

The only place where I say all bets are off is red copper. I know it’s really scarce in many cases and highly prestigious to own it, but it is the most unstable of all U.S. coins. That’s why I rarely collect it.

Cougar1978 · May 24, 2018 6:15AM

Tarnish gets worse over time as this is the result of reaction with the atmosphete. I have to laugh at the comments of the toning enthusiasts here. Unless coin stored in vacuum...it’s prolly gonna get worse.

U want flip y toned material quickly and if u get them stickered they wil even pay u more and in this down market.

Justacommeman · May 24, 2018 6:18AM

@Cougar1978 said:
Tarnish gets worse over time as this is the result of reaction with the atmosphete. I have to laugh at the comments of the toning enthusiasts here. Unless coin stored in vacuum...it’s prolly gonna get worse.

U want flip y toned material quickly and if u get them stickered they wil even pay u more.

BS unless you are only talking about ASE's

mark

divecchia · May 24, 2018 8:26AM

So, toning is just an environmental/chemical process that given enough time and the right or wrong conditions (depending on whether or not you like toning) may eventually happen to most coins.

@BillJones Thanks for confirming my opinion on copper. I have purchased only Red Brown examples as I thought that Red's may be too unstable to stay that way.

Thanks again for all the comments. Donato

asheland · May 24, 2018 8:33AM

I believe that the coins that continue to progress while in the slabs likely have a contaminant on the surface, otherwise, if stored properly, shouldn't tone any further.

JBK · May 24, 2018 9:08AM

I agree with many of the above comments.

I am sometimes amazed at how some coins seem stable in their blast white condition, and others just can't settle down regardless of the packaging. In any case, surface contaminants are a huge factor, but so are temperature and humidity. Ideally, once a surface stabilizes, that should be about it unless dramatic condition changes are introduced. The key question is, at what point is it "stabilized"?

bolivarshagnasty · May 24, 2018 10:17AM

@Justacommeman said:

@Cougar1978 said:
Tarnish gets worse over time as this is the result of reaction with the atmosphete. I have to laugh at the comments of the toning enthusiasts here. Unless coin stored in vacuum...it’s prolly gonna get worse.

U want flip y toned material quickly and if u get them stickered they wil even pay u more.

BS unless you are only talking about ASE's

mark

And BS if you are talking about ASE's. I have a 1998 example that toned in a PCI holder. Once removed from that holder, (2008 time frame) it hasn't changed in the least bit in the subsequent 10 years. Sits on my desk, so I see it every day.

jmlanzaf · May 24, 2018 10:23AM

@asheland said:
I believe that the coins that continue to progress while in the slabs likely have a contaminant on the surface, otherwise, if stored properly, shouldn't tone any further.

If by "stored properly" you mean in a vacuum, I'll agree. AIR TONES COINS. Slabs are not airtight - which is why people can artificially tone coins right in the holders using hydrogen sulfide gas. Slabs slow down the progression by slowing down the air exchange, but they do not stop it.

Smudge · May 24, 2018 10:34AM

@bolivarshagnasty said:

@Justacommeman said:

@Cougar1978 said:
Tarnish gets worse over time as this is the result of reaction with the atmosphete. I have to laugh at the comments of the toning enthusiasts here. Unless coin stored in vacuum...it’s prolly gonna get worse.

U want flip y toned material quickly and if u get them stickered they wil even pay u more.

BS unless you are only talking about ASE's

mark

And BS if you are talking about ASE's. I have a 1998 example that toned in a PCI holder. Once removed from that holder, (2008 time frame) it hasn't changed in the least bit in the subsequent 10 years. Sits on my desk, so I see it every day.

I'll bet every coin doctor out there is trying to find out what PCI used in their slabs, if they don't already know.

Questions about toning and it’s long term effects.

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