1804 Dollar coming up for sale
privaterarecoincollector
Posts: 629 ✭✭✭✭✭
The coin looks AU in a PCGS 62 holder and sold last time for 3.8 Mio USD while the wonderful PR 65 brought how much again, 3.3 Mio ?
These are real market tests for the post Pogue sale area.
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Do you mean Million by saying Mio ? An unusual contraction I've not seen before your use.
I’d throw that $3.3M price realized right out the window as it was a direct result of the games they played with the PR68. Nobody thought it was going to sell and so they didn’t bother to bid. You and I both know there was a mad scramble after the sale to buy it from the winning bidders.
exactly, I fully agree. Still I dont think the PCGS 62 will bring 3.8 Mio again, but who knows...
I always thought the PR 65 is worth 5 Mio.
Here's the TrueView
The PCGS PriceGuide lists the coin at just $2.85M but I'm guessing this may be because of the $3.3M price for the PR65.
Oh you guys with your millions of dollars and your unobtainable coins.
--Severian the Lame
That made me laugh today!
What a coin. The one thing I love about HA auctions is that it can be plebians like me a chance to hold and see numismatic treasures in real like that I would have no chance in hell of affording myself. Can't wait to go to the viewing so I can hold this and the MS65 S4 chain cent.
Successful transactions with: wondercoin, Tetromibi, PerryHall, PlatinumDuck, JohnMaben/Pegasus Coin & Jewelry, CoinFlip, and coinlieutenant.
If we all had millions, the 1804's would be billions!
The stuff that dreams are made of...
It is disgusting how much wear the TPG's are willing to ignore on 1804 dollars!
How else can you overgrade it properly?
That requires a very simple answer. Grading has changed over time. At one time there was no AU grade. As soon as it became widely accepted, the appearance (and value) of an XF coin was diminished. IMO, by the 1970's there was enough knowledge available about strike, luster, planchet problems to have PERMANENTLY fixed the grading standards for all time. That was when a Mint State coin had no trace of wear. If this coin would have been seen by me at back then it should have graded either XF-45 or AU-50. BTW, my personal grading standards have not changed over the ensuing decades. It is still an AU-50 based on its CONDITION OF PRESERVATION (Technical grading system).
All of us know what has occurred to have this coin in a "MARKET ACCEPTABLE" MS-62 slab by a top TPGS. Nevertheless, for those who don't:
The values of coins (especially the very desirable ones as this) have increased. Since the powers that be attempted to relate a coin's "perceived" value to its grade, any grade assigned in the past **must be raised."
This is an observable fact so let's all wink and call it anything we wish. The coin is going to sell for some price UNRELATED to its actual conditing no matter what it is graded! Stick it in an MS-64 slab...who cares.
As the professionals at the major TPGS learned more (we all do and I don't care who you are, what you have done, or what company you own) they graded coins differently than when they started as they became better at what they do. Leeway was given to softer metals and the strike of a coin. Market acceptability crept into the grading room to influence opinions. Finances became important, and all the while prices kept climbing. New grade levels were added with qualifiers like pluses and stars to VALUE a coin more precisely.
If grading standards had become fixed long ago, there would be less subjectivity. This coin would still have its "original" assigned grad and ONLY ITS VALUE would have increased. Give me ten minutes to show anyone what a Mint State Flowing Hair dollar looks like and how to ID friction wear by color and the unoriginality of a surface and this coin would be very confusing.
Regrettably, I'm being called to dinner. Probably for my own good...LOL.
That’s a longggg post. I was just referring to the tpg’s ranking the coins rather than strictly grading them. 68=66, 67=65, etc.
They’re ALL overgraded by 2 points...so to keep it ranked properly they had to ignore the rub
Market grading is being used and leniency is common for rare coins.
This one looks more than 2 points to me, but such is the way with rarities.
RE: "That was when a Mint State coin had no trace of wear."
That remains the case - for honest, objective grading. The subject coin has wear. It cannot be "uncirculated" or "mint state" or even...."North Dakota!"
It’s just an abbreviation for millions. You see it used more in Europe.
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Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Thanks. I have never seen it before this thread. I'll have to get to Europe more often.
Makes sense. I don't know the commercial side of this industry at all! I'd like to see a grading service downgrade the next one they get to a realistic grade. The uproar would be earth-shaking. They cannot if they wanted to as there is a "grade guarantee" that would prevent it. Who cares, the folks who buy these coins know the game.
You would think so but that is NOT THE CASE! As one famous coin dealer who threatened to sue the first TPGS out of business said (changed to reflect this coin): It is Mint State - 62. We auctioned it as Mint State, it was bought as Mint State and it deserves to be Mint State!" OMG! Thankfully before he could make good on his threat the ANA announced that they were going to have ANACS start grading coins. LOL.
Having seen the coin in hand, I’m not offended by a 61...and they’re all overgraded so 62 makes a bit of sense
I recall from the PCGS Guide to Grading and Counterfeit Detection that in the section regarding capped bust half dollars, that a bit of high-point rub was acceptable for the grades up to around MS65 (IIRC). Maybe the so-called "original" 1804 Dollars struck during the 1830's (and contemporary with the capped bust half dollars of the day) get that same policy!
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Over grading is nothing more than deception - a perversion for the sole benefit of the greedy. To claim that a coin with wear is "uncirculated" or "mint state" is a lie. I really don't care whose tender toes are stepped on - the lie is NOT acceptable morally, ethically, or logically.
BINGO! That's because truly Mint State Capped Bust half dollars hardly exist!! And that's why the coin dealers needed to take complete charge of the grading standards. "Coins that were formerly considered to be AU [by the old standards being followed by folks who were not coin dealers and had absolutely no interest in a coin's value] are now graded in the low MS ranges [by those who do have an interest in the financial aspects of numismatics].
It is no big deal. I'm learning to ignore friction wear and problems with the best of them.
Consider this academic question from someone who has seen it many times...Let's throw (er...carefully place) a large group of MS-65 graded Capped Bust half dollars on a table. What are you going to grade the true Mint State raw one in gem Uncirculated someone has? Do you give it a plus or a star? These gems exist in Mint State. While they may have more value and are fought over by knowledgeable folks, they still have the same grade - MS-65 as the other AU's that bear the same label on the slab. I have fun in class teaching the difference. It is a game using two TPGS slabs called "Which 65 would you buy?" At the end of the game, they learn another lesson. They are all 65's regardless of their actual condition of preservation because that's what is on the label!
Perhaps that should be in the book too.
The professionals I respect can look at a coin like the 1804 dollar and say in all honesty that while the coin is not even close to Mint State, it is a "commercial" MS-62 [at this time in history] and the coin is worth somewhere around $. Now that is a true professional coin dealer/collector.
In NNP, the catalogue for Stacks '93 Reed Hawn Sale has an enlarged image. My cut-and-paste skill are lacking, but the image would be useful if someone would accomodate
"Talkin' 'bout the Midnight Scrambler".
My original notes from Childs were "1904 would 66 hard mirrors > KOS"
In 1984, when Elvin Untermann first tried to sell the set at auction, Dave Bowers was passing around the KOS set in the yellow morocco leather case with the coins displayed raw like a tray of canapes. I insisted he put the coins down before I took each out to put my glass on them. You betcha my hands were shaking
Called the dollar 64+, The $10 I saw as 63+ish.
I had to avert my eyes when I put this coin into the HA magnification page...oh the humanity!
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Iirc, the KOS 1804 has a noticeable spot removed in the left obverse field by pin scratching
Stewart Blay has railed in the past about the Eliasberg 1804 being circulated and otherwise impaired
I personally just accept the fact that they are ALL overgraded. Which doesn’t matter because the value is determined by the rank
I just looked it up, not in the CAC database of beaned coins..................
is the Dexter coin beaned?
None are - caccoin.com/cgi-bin/pop_results.cgi?Issue=Dollars&Type=Bust,+Large+Eagle&Desig=PR
Sunshine Rare Coins
sunshinecoins.com/store/c1/Featured_Products.html
this
Nope. It would bean for sure at 63+ and maybe I’d get lucky at 64....but in this instance it just doesn’t matter. The coin is not doctored and is less overgraded than its peers
There is no question that the 1804 Dollar's are graded by their pecking order...not their actual grade. I would wager this was started by 1 overgraded coin in the chain of grading over the years. Anyone up to the task of the research?
It's nice to collect coins where exact grades and stickers matter less. To me it means there are few enough coins and they are easily compared and there's a certain amount of freedom in that.
And yet any 1804$1 that managed to achieve a bean would be unique. Factor that in?
The trouble with over grading these coins as a commercial policy is that it makes it impossible to develop an objective condition census using the TPG grades. The only way to do it is to use the lists advanced collectors have compiled.
Not if they’re ALL overgraded the same amount
If these high-level coins are all over graded... and that seems to be the consensus.. then I would say that grades at this level of scarcity are really meaningless and simply denote a 'pecking order'. This can all be resolved when computer grading becomes a reality... It is also possible that a new grading system could accompany the introduction of real standards. A brave new world awaits us.... Cheers, RickO
The grade does matter at some point. There is one heavily circulated piece that I believe the DuPonts owned at one point. It was graded Fine in the "Fantastic 1804 Silver Dollar" book, and it's not very attractive, at least going by the photo of it.
Many times an 1804 dollar is bought by investors. They read the insert and what the label
Says. They would not buy the Eliasberg specimen as an XF 45 or the Reed Hawn Quellar specimen as an AU 53. Tradedollarnut is one of the few owners other than Pogue who are collectors first.
Even the Pogue coin may sticker as a 66 and even that is questionable. The beautiful thing about CAC is they call an 1804dollar the same way they call a 1799 dollar.
Mama Mio!
The joy coins can bring.
Yes & Yes...they can recognize facial features thus without human error will produce ONE standard and eliminate all arguments right?
BTW let me sell my house to get into this coin....
BTW I studied the PR 68 and I have no idea why its graded 68.
Agreed, since I never saw it either
BHNC #203