Anonymous Poll: Where is the ethical line in the sand?
spacehayduke
Posts: 5,732 ✭✭✭✭✭
Hi Folks,
Hypothetical: A coin dealer lists a very specific coin for sale online with images of the coin, in a slab, with a unique serial number. The listing demonstrates, that this is a unique item, with specific qualities for the grade as clearly pictured in the listing. The price is consistent with the premium quality of the coin for the grade. A buyer purchases it because he/she believes to be buying this specific, unique, coin. What he/she receives is a far lesser coin at this premium price that is not consistent with the unique item he/she believes he/she was purchasing. The buyer then complains to the dealer about not sending the right coin. Dealer response is to give the money back, no effort is made to explain the mistake or send the right coin.
So my question follows.
Question - it is ethical to list a specific coin for sale, with unique characteristics, and then send another coin to the buyer instead, refund the money when buyer complains, instead of sending the right coin?
Best, SH
Comments
I am picky about most of the coins that I buy. If you send me something other than the specific piece that shown in your ad or auction, I'm done with you for good, at least through the mail.
At a show, I'd buy from the devil if it's a coin that's been on my list for long time ... so long as I can deal with him face to face and leave with the exact item for which I have made a deal.
"This is the exact item you will receive", or a disclaimer stating that "the item pictured is an example of what you will receive". would make this problem go away.
Pete
wow first double post error, see below
I pretty much only buy and sell unique coins.
I always expect to get what I buy and I always ship the exact coin I am selling.
It reads like a hypothetical APMEX ebay listing...
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Ethical if it is an honest mistake. Non ethical if intentional.
It's unethical and, if the item is listed on multiple sites, then the dealer should be diligent about taking the listings down, when sold. That's part of his job. No excuse imho.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
If the situation is as you describe here, then this is black-and-white unethical to me. Each of us only has one reputation.
Kind regards,
George
I agree with this sentiment fully. Which is why I am so surprised about some goings on by some numismatic dealers that we read about...........
Best, SH
Most of us know what the OP is referring too.
I wonder how many folks went after the same listing.
Only to receive a generic coin of the same grade.
And how many folks didn't bother to pursue a refund?
Yes this is unethical.
When one takes pains to list it with such details, there should be no expectation of receiving anything other than the coin pictured.
Well for the rest of us who don't, spill the beans and the website!
Didn't you hear, after Einstein, everything is relative, there are no absolutes? Grading is totally subjective and like the unitarian and Buddhist view, all roads lead to nirvana so why get upset on the way there....
This is exactly the situation being discussed for several pages on the Apmex shouldn't be selling coins thread where the opp has posted their belief with many others.
I'm not sure why the opp posted this as a hypothetical.
I don't know how we can conclude that the company did something unethical because they didn't "explain themselves " to the masses. People and companies make mistakes. Yes they should have shipped the coin in the listing. Yes they owed the buyer a refund(which they did), and Yes they should work in the future to make sure it doesn't happen again. Apology? I guess my skin is a little thicker and I could care less if they apologize. If I'm not happy I'll move on.
Aside from that I don't think they owe us anything. If you don't like them, don't buy from them but stop trying to light the torches and pull out the pitchforks.
My Ebay Store
Don’t own a pitchfork and would not use one. However, it’s an easy question to answer. Clearly deceptive and unethical. There, no one got hurt receiving my opinion.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
But how is it clearly deceptive? We don’t know if it was a mistake. Just because they didn’t chose to fill us in on the inner workings of their company? What if they’ve had several of these errors because the owners granson worked there and didn’t know squat about coins?Maybe they fired the person because they kept making these mistakes. Do they need to tell us that?
My Ebay Store
UNETHICAL !!!!
Come on! I'm tired of people defending this deception! Just how many gold CAC stickers are out there for this coin in this grade? I would wager 1! The coin was touted as a Gold CAC and that's what the buyer should receive! I have never used a stock photo and never will...on any thing! If you do you are not selling what you advertise unless you clearly state this is not a picture of what you will receive!
If an item is posted with an identifiable model number, serial number, or any kind of identifier that is unique to that item, and the sale information has no disclaimer that it is a generic Pic or ad and the item you receive may not be the exact one listed, and you receive a lesser valued item or not that identified number then it is my opinion that this is a classic " Bait and Switch " tactic. Ignorance is no excuse to the law. By virtue of the fact the seller listed in the venue he did, implies knowledge of the items to be sold. There is no way I would take my money back. The seller sold you an item under false pretenses whether they intended to or not. You entered into a binding contract of which the seller is in default. Ethics has nothing to do with it. The mistake is the sellers and not yours. Now, the question is " What do you want to do about it "
Bob Sr CEO Fieldtechs
Ridiculous question. Assumes evidence not in evidence. Of course it is not ethical to INTENTIONALLY DO IT. You can't know that Apmex did it intentionally. [Yes, we all know what you're referring to.]
How about a different poll question? Is it ethical for a dealer to "accidentally" list a coin they don't have using a stock photo?
Is it ethical for an individual to accidentally bump into an old woman causing her to fall and break her hip?
That's because you are assuming they do it intentionally.
I've listed NUMEROUS postcards that I don't have because eBay keeps doing it for me because of a software glitch.
LOL. See the Apmex post on this very website.
Better get it slabbed.
Seriously, how many buyers would buy a slabbed coin with a CAC sticker and then keep a generic slabbed coin without a CAC sticker instead of sending it back? My guess is exactly zero, but even if it is one in 50, what would be the point?
For all of those who are POSITIVE that Apmex does it on purpose, what is the advantage to them to have to pay round trip shipping plus processing costs on returns 49 times to manage to stick someone with a coin they don't want on their 50th try?
Honestly, there would be NO point in Apmex doing this as an intentional business practice FOR EXACTLY THE REASON YOU STATE. If there is only one gold CAC sticker out there and someone is paying a premium, the buyer is going to return it 99 times out of 100 (maybe 100 out of 100). That is lost time and money. Unless you make $1 million on the 100th time, it's a losing proposition for the business.
My Ebay Store
It happens too often with them for this to be accidental............... Software these days can easily keep track of inventory and hence it is easy for any competent company to keep from repeatedly making such a gaff. The title of their listing was very clear on what coin the buyer would receive - is the title 'autofilled' as well?
Best, SH
When I see "the one" that I really want, I first message the vendor to ask if I will in fact be receiving the coin in the photograph, or if it is a stock image.
Because I've been burned on that too many times myself. So,
1 - From the dealer standpoint, they should make it clear whether it is a stock photo or not.
2 - However, I feel that it is the buyer's responsibility to know what they are purchasing.
Insert witicism here. [ xxx ]
In the case of the listing being discussed on the other threads, the title of the APMEX listing for the gold CAC Walker was very specific in what the buyer would receive - a unique coin with unique combination of grade and gold CAC. That is pretty specific, and for all the buyer knew, if he waited for APMEX to respond to such an inquiry someone else may have pulled the trigger and he would have lost out........
Best, SH
@spacehayduke gotcha. I was talking generalities not specifics. I've been away from the boards for a little bit and didn't know that this pertained to something specific.
Insert witicism here. [ xxx ]
No worries and thanks for your post. I agree with you that caution and caveat emptor should rule the day whenever possible.
Best, SH
Au contraire, I don't know what the OP is referring to and still don't. I didn't realize there was a specific instance. I gather it's (was?) an APMEX listing for a Gold CAC Walker. Anyone care to actually describe it in detail? I would appreciate it.
Kind regards,
George
Sorry, I thought EVERYONE on the board knew at this point. It's the Apmex thread started by Acop. He bought a coin from Apmex. The picture showed a slabbed coin with a gold CAC. I think the listing title might have also said that. When he got the coin, it was the same grade, slabbed, but no CAC.
Subsequently, the discussion has been over whether that was an honest mistake by Apmex or an intentionally deceptive business practice.
Peace, brother
Thank you @jmlanzaf. I don't get out much.
Kind regards,
George
LOL. You must get out too much, or you'd know everything posted on these board.
Keep it, forgive and move the heck on.
Well, I picked the third choice. The way I figure it, an honest mistake that garners a sincere apology and a comment. Maybe 'we sold it in another venue and the ebay listing wasn't taken down' or 'the ebay listing was an inadvertent duplicate' is completely understandable. Aggravating as a buyer perhaps, but understandable.
Poop happens and mistakes are made. Not a big deal unless someone decides to double down and be a jerk about it or, oh say, sends another coin in place of one where a specific coin/photo/cert #/ CAC bean is specified that is clearly inferior.
Try this: 'we made a mistake and don't have/can't find that coin, but we do have this other one. Will that one be satisfactory?'.
Sure forgive them for making a mistake. Get rid of mental negativity, anger, or resentment.
If there is an explanation such as 'new employee who didn't understand the difference between a numismatic item vs. a bullion widget', then I would even forgive them enough to do business with them again depending on the seller's exhibited pattern of behavior.
If not, well, I might forgive in terms of letting go of the mental negativity, anger, resentment, or whatever. Forgiveness doesn't relieve the other from being held accountable.
Sadly though some people seem to equate 'forgiveness' to a free pass to either use or be used as a doormat. To continue to 'forgive' someone who repeats doing the same sort of things, who doesn't change, or take ownership of their mistake doesn't make sense.
If you got a bad haircut after paying for a good one, would you forgive the hairdresser/barber and go back? Maybe once after an appropriate apology and a refund? But if you got a second bad haircut...would one 'forgive' and go back a third time?
And does one forgive an individual their trespass, or can one forgive a non-sentient entity such as a corporation? Forgive the individual who sent the wrong coin, but the company still has to make you whole.
Too much for one morning pre coffee.
Actually i5 does. If you click sell similar item on eBay it will make a duplicate listing. Title and photos and all.
It appears from 5he other thread that apmex answered a question asked on eBay about a specific coin sale will be of similar qualit, not necessarily the coin listed. . They apparently feel coins are a commodity like bullion and it is their business model to use stock photos. That would change my opinion about whether or not they should be selling coins but not about it being unethical.
A seller should send exact coin listed or state otherwise clearly in listing for generics. If it is their business model that all coins are equal it may be a ridiculous business model not neccissarily unethical.
My Ebay Store
That’s what Negs are for...
I would suggest that having blinders on about reality when you sell is unethical. This is like the listings where the seller says something like 'wail I dun't knew hower tee graid' (so this heavily cleaned coin I am calling Gem BU is really just a dog but how can I possibly know that since I don't know how to grade and this is my buisness model...). By analogy it is a convenient to say 'stock photo, therefore' when anyone in the buisness knows that something as unique as a coin with a CAC Gold sticker is a specific coin with specific unique attributes. I call that unethical, even when a company claims it is just their 'innocent' buisness model. Just sayin'.
Specifically, see the title in the APMEX listing being talked about in the other thread (Gold CAC and all) and tell me that was autofilled. Not.
Best, SH
This it’s totally different than someone saying that they can’t grade etc.
The TPGs and CAC all operate to create a commodity market for coins. Dealers bid sight unseen on coins al the time. That’s what the whole Greysheet is. Dealers who don’t care if they get one coin or another ad long as it is the grade or holder or cac vs non cac. So to pretend it doesn’t happen is disingenuous.
Apmex apparently feels that they can get away with treating coins like this on eBay. Obviously this is a flawed section of their business model because with retail coins most collectors expect the coin in the listing.
And your argument is that they listed a coin with gold bean that they never owned to fool people into buying. My argument is that they probably at one point had that specific coin and once it sold they had more proof walkers and decided to hit sell similar and that old info populates the listing. The person doing it either doesn’t know or was too lazy to change it. Not everyone who works for apmex is a necessarily numismatist or collector.
I’ve said several times what they did was wrong but nefarious or unethical for me is a stretch.
My Ebay Store
Yes I agree that Apmex 'feels that they can get away with treating coins like this on eBay'. To do this knowingly despite feeling (i.e. knowing) that at best this is a sloppy practice that leads to the kind so fiascos reported on other threads here.
I never said that 'they listed a coin with gold bean that they never owned to fool people into buying'. I have no idea whether they owned it or not. I only know that they listed a specific coin with a specific serial number on the slab that also listed a gold CAC sticker in the title of the listing and showed an image of it. Then sent something else.
Then perhaps they should only use numismatists to deal with the numismatic items?
Bait and Switch is unethical any way you look at it. JMHO, and likely the opinion of most here.
Best, SH
as outlined by the OP there is information we don't know which forces us to make assumptions.
--- my hunch is that many of the "unethical" votes are a reflection of the APMEX bias and those replies feel it was done intentionally.
--- I voted "ethical" on the assumption that the seller simply sent the wrong coin and when they were informed of that they promptly did the right thing.
ethics? Check the Russian pee tapes lulz
I voted ethical since they offered an immediate refund.... upon reflection, however, I think they should have stated it was an error and offered either the refund or to send the correct coin....So, on further thought, there could have been some unethical activity here...Cheers, RickO