Bust Quarters ~ Off Center Strike vs. Uncentered Broadstrike

1TwoBits · March 27, 2018 2:51PM

With regards to bust coinage, and specifically bust quarters in this example, do you know the difference between an off-center strike and an uncentered broadstrike? Do you have one in your collection from any bust series?

With the many knowledgeable collectors, dealers, graders, and former graders on the Forum, I'd like to hear how people identify one from the other and what their understanding of the difference between the two strike labels is.

To further challenge you, what label do you think the following coins fall under? Off-center strike or uncentered broadstrike?

I look forward to your comments, and if you have a bust coin similar to those above in any denomination, please post it.

1TwoBits

BillJones · March 27, 2018 3:02PM

I know that this will start an argument about early U.S. minting technology, but in the case of the 1818 and 1821 quarters, is there really any such thing as a "broad strike?" Off-center, sure that can happen.

As for the 1832, I can see how that could happen with the blank reverese. The 1838 has me scratching my head. One of the dies had to make it all the through the collar and out the other side to make that one.

scubafuel · March 27, 2018 3:14PM

I consider an uncentered broadstrike to be a coin that was struck out of collar, but on-center enough for all design elements to be in place, and at least the normal distance from the rim. An offcenter strike would be out of collar and off-center, preventing some detail from being struck, or moving details closer to the rim in the case of a minor off-center.
All the coins in the OP look off-center to me, with the second one being the most minor.

1Bustcollector · March 27, 2018 3:30PM

Oh, this is a fun topic.

Azurescens · March 27, 2018 4:10PM

Indeed!

spacehayduke · March 27, 2018 6:42PM

2B really cool!

Best, SH

scubafuel · March 27, 2018 8:39PM

It is an interesting topic, but I think classifying early mint errors using "modern" terminology misses the point sometimes. Because the machinery, dies and even the attitudes of the press operators were so different, the errors that resulted need a different thought process to accurately classify and value them.
For instance, today a cent struck over a foreign coin would be an unbelievable error and quite valuable. 220 years ago, that could have been done with a half cent as a matter of course due to planchet shortage, and might even be LESS valuable than one not struck that way.

For me, the magnitude of an early error is mostly what matters. I would rank the value of the above coins as 4, 3, 1, 2, even though #1 might sell for more than the rest combined due to its high grade. The relatively high cost and small off centering of #1 is maybe why it seems to bounce around without a long-term home.

jonathanb · March 27, 2018 9:34PM

Broadstrike has all of the design visible
Off-center has some of the design missing off the edge.

Your bottom three are clearly off-center. The top one might hinge on small details like the tips of the leaves, which I can't see clearly enough to judge in this picture.

rottnrog · March 28, 2018 6:30AM

All are off-centers. The denticles are considered part oF the design and are missing on all of them!!

1TwoBits · March 28, 2018 6:48PM

@scubafuel, that is an interesting way to rank them. It seems to be based on the % struck off center, and makes sense to me.

I'm still wondering...

The first coin was called a "Struck 5% Off-center."

The second coin, the 1821, PCGS is simply calling "Uncentered Broadstrike". No mention of % off center. I had the 1821 in an NGC holder where it was graded as an off-center strike. I cracked it out and sent it to PCGS where I expected it to be identified as the same.

So why is the 1818 called "Struck 5% Off-center", and the 1821 "Uncentered Broadstrike." What is the difference between the two coins, and what is the difference between what they are being labeled?

If a coin "Struck 5% Off-center" is the same as an "Uncentered Broadstrike," why is PCGS using two different identifiers? If they are different, what's the difference?

Someone please enlighten me.

1TwoBits

1Bustcollector · March 28, 2018 8:19PM

Does anyone know if there is a minimum starting point the grading services are using to begin classifying as “off-center” examples? I can’t remember anything less than 5%....

1TwoBits · March 28, 2018 8:56PM

@1Bustcollector, I have an 1811 bust half error that is labeled Struck 3% Off-center. I might have seen one labeled 2% before as well. I don't know if there is a minimum.

I don't really recall seeing an early error called an Off-center Broadstrike before though.

1TwoBits

1Bustcollector · March 28, 2018 9:59PM

Interesting comment 1TwoBits. Does anyone here know when the term Broadstrike was first used?

Maybe in another thread we could ask “both” U.S. and World forum members to post their earliest dated Broadstrike by the grading services.

seanq · March 29, 2018 7:12AM

The second coin is the only one that I could see being called an "uncentered broadstrike,' but on closer examination the tops of the letters of UNITED are clearly off the planchet, so I would categorize it as off center.

Sean Reynolds

SullivanNumismatics · March 29, 2018 10:09AM

Broadstrikes are struck out of collar, and so have expanded in diameter, but retain all of their design.

Off-center strikes are struck out of collar, but do NOT retain all of their design--some of the design must be missing.

The problem typically comes from determining what constitutes "design" or not on a coin, and on the coins that are 5% off-center or less, often times it can be hit and miss with any of the grading services (and I admit, it can be difficult to decide.) On the 1821, the dentils are missing, but because the coin is so worn, you cannot "see that their missing." In my judgement, the coin is 3% off-center, and that's what I would call it.

If you send it back in to PCGS for grading, there's a decent chance they'll simply call it an off-center. I would write a note on the flip "off-center since dentils are missing".

1Bustcollector · March 29, 2018 10:39AM

Excellent comments everyone! I’m still learning....

scubafuel · March 29, 2018 11:29AM

Can anyone post an uncontroversial uncentered broadstrike on a bust coin?

Here is the only one so described that I can find in HA archives, and it's very hard to tell from the pics what it actually is:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/errors/1833-10c-bust-dime-uncentered-broadstrike-fine-12-pcgs-jr-9-r-2-an-area-of-curved-unstruck-surface-is-widest-near-12-o/a/352-8344.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515

And here is what I generally think of when I hear the term "uncentered broadstrike":
https://coins.ha.com/itm/errors/1999-p-susan-b-anthony-dollar-broadstrike-on-a-type-one-proof-planchet-ms64-pcgs/a/1121-6301.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515

On this SBA, all design elements at least as far as they should be from the rim (note that the rim details CAN be missing on an uncentered broadstrike. Sometimes the increased metal flow of an un-collared strike just obliterates them. The spacing is what is important).

My trip through HA archives shows that PCGS will call a ~5% offcenter broadstrike sometimes and not others. I cannot tell why, or what criteria they use.

1TwoBits: For most series a minor broadstrike would be worth less than a minor offcenter. But an actual uncentered broadstrike appears to be very scarce in bust series and would probably be worth more.

ricko · March 30, 2018 8:46AM

As @jonathanb said....These are the rules I have always used....
Broadstrike has all of the design visible
Off-center has some of the design missing off the edge.
Cheers, RickO

1Bustcollector · April 2, 2018 6:45AM

@jonathanb and @ricko:

Is there a written policy/submission description with all the grading services if it’s “that easy of a definition”.

And are they all in agreement?

ricko · April 2, 2018 6:53AM

Let me suggest this reference... For the most part, definitions do agree...sometimes there are small variations, but not of major significance. Cheers, RickO
https://www.money.org/uploads/treasures/TreasuresPDF.pdf

1Bustcollector · April 2, 2018 7:44AM

Thanks Ricko,

That’s a good book. Explains quite a bit.

Unfortunately, I didn’t see a formal reference to broadstrike and the op in this current thread was asking the definition difference between broadstrike vs off center - most likely for submission/grading concerns and I think “we” came to a conclusion (Mr. Sullivan did a great job among others) here on the forum but does PCGS, NGC and ANACS have agreeable written definitive terms that you (or anyone else) know of???

Bust Quarters ~ Off Center Strike vs. Uncentered Broadstrike

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