What do you call the "teeth" around the rim of some coins?

Insider2 · March 8, 2018 10:12AM

Serious question? There seem to be several usages in print. I learned they were called denticles. I never heard "Dentil" used until a modern researcher (?) used it in a book (?) in the late 1980's(?) or early 1990's(?). The Macmillian Encyclopedic Dictionary of Numismatics (1982) defined denticles with no mention of dentils. Neither word is in a small dictionary - perhaps in the 6+ inch thick unabridged version. Apparently there is no wrong usage as today, either is correct. I'm curious and have two questions:

1 Do you use:

Dentil, Dentils?
or
Denticle, Denticles?

2 What and where is the earliest usage of either of these terms found?

I hope others are interested in this question too.

CaptHenway · March 8, 2018 10:15AM

Denticles

JBK · March 8, 2018 10:15AM

Dentils. Also used for woodworking accents.

WoodenJefferson · March 8, 2018 10:48AM

Denticles (many teeth) Dentil (just one tooth)

TwoSides2aCoin · March 8, 2018 10:59AM

Denticles in numismatics. For design or strength or aesthetics ? I don't know.
Dentils, in contracting. As in "square tooth" , a decor most notably.

Dentuck · March 8, 2018 11:34AM

Most dictionaries specifically define a dentil as being square or rectangular, and a denticle as being tooth-like. Since these coin-rim projections often are rounded (as opposed to rectangular or square) but always are tooth-like, Whitman Publishing's house style is denticle.

Insider2 · March 8, 2018 11:36AM

@TwoSides2aCoin said:
Denticles in numismatics. For design or strength or aesthetics ? I don't know.
Dentils, in contracting. As in "square tooth" , a decor most notably.
     

Perhaps that's how the word "dentils" wiggled its way into numismatics! Some guy with a woodworking hobby or architect with a coin hobby wrote a reference book!

Very important (at least to me), does anyone know the earliest know use of either word?

Walkerfan · March 8, 2018 12:30PM

I have always heard them called denticles.

LindeDad · March 8, 2018 12:47PM

I think most of us first saw the word in our early reading of the "Red Book". And Dentuck explained it well.

BryceM · March 8, 2018 12:51PM

Dent = tooth. Whatever is added to the root word after that is just an adjective.

To me they’re denticles, but you can even call it the jaggedie rim. All the same to me.

TommyType · March 8, 2018 12:59PM

Just to confuse a rather orderly discussion.....

What would you call the design element around the rim of a Standing Liberty Quarter?

(It's a semi-serious question, in that there could/should be a general term for a "rim enhancing" design element, with denticles being a subset describing "those that look like teeth".)

FredWeinberg · March 8, 2018 1:00PM

I’ve use the term denticles since the early 60s

RogerB · March 8, 2018 1:07PM

@CaptHenway said:
Denticles

Also my preferred use, but "dentils" seems OK, too. "Chompers" "chiclets" "grill," etc. do not work....

Insider2 · March 8, 2018 1:25PM

@TommyType said:
Just to confuse a rather orderly discussion.....

What would you call the design element around the rim of a Standing Liberty Quarter?

(It's a semi-serious question, in that there could/should be a general term for a "rim enhancing" design element, with denticles being a subset describing "those that look like teeth".)

Rim ornaments
Embellishments
Artful additions

Insider2 · March 8, 2018 1:31PM

So...who where, and when was "Dentils" added to our lexicon? I personally hate the usage when applied to our coins!!!

Walkerfan · March 8, 2018 1:33PM

@Insider2 said:

@TommyType said:
Just to confuse a rather orderly discussion.....

What would you call the design element around the rim of a Standing Liberty Quarter?

(It's a semi-serious question, in that there could/should be a general term for a "rim enhancing" design element, with denticles being a subset describing "those that look like teeth".)

Rim ornaments
Embellishments
Artful additions

Or how about drapery, garland or braiding.

Insider2 · March 8, 2018 1:35PM

I'm having lunch and looking at our library. So far, Larry Briggs may have been the "ex-carpenter." In his 1991 book on quarters (I recommend it) he uses "dentils." let's see how far back we can find the term in print - please.

I'm going to bet the LSCC guys started this.

NOPE...Breen used it in his encyclopedia. 1988.

Lunch over. Taxay published in 1970, perhaps he mentioned them. Also need to check Penny Whimsy, and Newcomb later. Help!

JBK · March 8, 2018 1:49PM

Maybe it was during WWII when they tried to conserve ink by shortening "denticles" to "dentils". Those few missing letters might just have helped win the war.

Insider2 · March 8, 2018 1:53PM

You really left yourself "open" about "saving something" with that post.

CaptHenway · March 8, 2018 1:59PM

@TommyType said:
Just to confuse a rather orderly discussion.....

What would you call the design element around the rim of a Standing Liberty Quarter?

(It's a semi-serious question, in that there could/should be a general term for a "rim enhancing" design element, with denticles being a subset describing "those that look like teeth".)

Decorative border?
Decorated border?
Fancy-schmancy border?
Morse code border?

WorldTypeSet · March 8, 2018 2:04PM

Morse code border?

A true Morse Code border, on the reverse ...

asheland · March 8, 2018 2:08PM

I've always known them as Denticles.

yosclimber · March 8, 2018 2:39PM

It looks like denticles is the proper word (for half dimes, since they are somewhat rounded), but I've been using dentils, as it's shorter.

ms70 · March 8, 2018 3:23PM

Denticles.

Wabbit2313 · March 8, 2018 4:06PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RY8sQXPlQgM

RogerB · March 8, 2018 6:11PM

RE: "Taxay published in 197, perhaps he mentioned them."

Wow! Did not know Taxay was that old! Is that 197 BCE or CE?

Insider2 · March 8, 2018 6:56PM

@RogerB said:
RE: "Taxay published in 197, perhaps he mentioned them."

Wow! Did not know Taxay was that old! Is that 197 BCE or CE?

Thanks, corrected to 1970.

kaz · March 8, 2018 7:05PM

I like dentils, since you save a syllable every time you say it.

tommy44 · March 8, 2018 7:08PM

@PBRat said:

Morse code border?

A true Morse Code border, on the reverse ...

We win when we work willingly

ldhair · March 8, 2018 7:38PM

I can't find the term in Penny Whimsy but gave up after about 100 pages. I did see the term edge devices used.

Aegis3 · March 8, 2018 8:50PM

I originally used denticle, but now mainly used dentil, mainly due to the numbers of letters and syllables.

ms70 · March 8, 2018 9:00PM

I originally used denticle but now at my age maybe I should consider dentures?

WorldTypeSet · March 8, 2018 9:58PM

Oldest dentils/denticles in my collection, from the mid-11th century Bohemain Denar ...

keets · March 9, 2018 5:17AM

The American numismatical manual of the currency or money of the aborigines and Colonial, State, and United States coins

in this book from around 1859 by Prof. Montroville W. Dickeson there may be a reference to the two terms. I have it, have not read it completely and am not about to do a search. it is probably available online and might be "searchable" for someone who is adept at that.

ricko · March 9, 2018 6:59AM

Dentil -
noun, Architecture.
1.
any of a series of closely spaced, small, rectangular blocks, used especially in classical architecture beneath the coronas of Ionic, Corinthian, and Composite cornices.

Denticle -
noun
1.
a small tooth or toothlike part.

Looks as if both could be appropriate.... the online dictionary does not reference numismatics, so likely a borrowed term. Cheers, RickO

Rich49 · March 9, 2018 7:46AM

Edge or Rim Design ?

messydesk · March 9, 2018 8:17AM

Denticles, not to be confused with the Greek god of border decoration, Denticles (different pronunciation).

Insider2 · March 9, 2018 9:10AM

@ricko said:
Dentil -
noun, Architecture.
1.
any of a series of closely spaced, small, rectangular blocks, used especially in classical architecture beneath the coronas of Ionic, Corinthian, and Composite cornices.

Denticle -
noun
1.
a small tooth or toothlike part.

Looks as if both could be appropriate.... the online dictionary does not reference numismatics, so likely a borrowed term. Cheers, RickO

This and at least one poster before this (2 sides) has convinced me (using definitions I did not find) that "Dentil" is an INCORRECT USAGE" when applied to coins. My opinion will not change anything; yet while I'm alive, I'm going to do my best to rid numismatics of "dentil."

PS An also of "Net Grading" practices.

CaptHenway · March 9, 2018 9:13AM

Dentil Denial?

keets · March 9, 2018 9:48AM

dentil is associated with architecture.
denticle is associated with biology or archeology.

dentil would appear to be the more proper or most closely aligned word, though denticle is the more common usage today. word usage changes over time but in this instance it seems that the more proper word has fallen out of usage as a more comfortable word has replaced it.

BuffaloIronTail · March 9, 2018 10:36AM

@Walkerfan said:

@Insider2 said:

@TommyType said:
Just to confuse a rather orderly discussion.....

What would you call the design element around the rim of a Standing Liberty Quarter?

(It's a semi-serious question, in that there could/should be a general term for a "rim enhancing" design element, with denticles being a subset describing "those that look like teeth".)

Rim ornaments
Embellishments
Artful additions

Or how about drapery, garland or braiding.

"Rim ornamentation" is what I use. It becomes "denticle" when it is a Denticle.

Pete

giorgio11 · March 9, 2018 11:02AM

@CaptHenway said:

@TommyType said:
Just to confuse a rather orderly discussion.....

What would you call the design element around the rim of a Standing Liberty Quarter?

(It's a semi-serious question, in that there could/should be a general term for a "rim enhancing" design element, with denticles being a subset describing "those that look like teeth".)

Decorative border?
Decorated border?
Fancy-schmancy border?
Morse code border?

It seems to me I have read "bead and reed" or "bead and reel" somewhere but don't recall where. I did find "reed" easily in reference to the 1916 Liberty's bisecting the one above her head in Jay Cline's reference.

Kind regards,

George

Insider2 · March 9, 2018 11:04AM

@keets said:
dentil is associated with architecture.
denticle is associated with biology or archeology.

dentil would appear to be the more proper or most closely aligned word, though denticle is the more common usage today. word usage changes over time but in this instance it seems that the more proper word has fallen out of usage as a more comfortable word has replaced it.

Yeah, sorta like "cud" being shortened to "major die break." Let's see the return of "double die" also.

blitzdude · March 9, 2018 11:38AM

@giorgio11 said:

@CaptHenway said:

@TommyType said:
Just to confuse a rather orderly discussion.....

What would you call the design element around the rim of a Standing Liberty Quarter?

(It's a semi-serious question, in that there could/should be a general term for a "rim enhancing" design element, with denticles being a subset describing "those that look like teeth".)

Decorative border?
Decorated border?
Fancy-schmancy border?
Morse code border?

It seems to me I have read "bead and reed" or "bead and reel" somewhere but don't recall where. I did find "reed" easily in reference to the 1916 Liberty's bisecting the one above her head in Jay Cline's reference.

Kind regards,

George

Reeds are on the coins side (thickness), I believe they are talking at the edge of the surface of the obverse / reverse. Rgds

giorgio11 · March 9, 2018 11:48AM

I'm aware of that but I nonetheless have seen this phrase somewhere in relation to the decorative element around the rim. Thanks @blitzdude. I think I filed it away mentally as "hmm, I never knew what to call that before."

Kind regards,

George

johnny9434 · March 9, 2018 11:52AM

ive always heard Denticles and some times beads by the young collectors.

logger7 · March 9, 2018 12:06PM

There is this interesting background on why they were used, cynical me, I was thinking they were used to discourage two-bit chiselers:

"Denticles are small, toothlike design elements all the way around the perimeter of some coins, especially of the 18th and 19th centuries. Although it is not exactly known why the United States Mint decided to put denticles on coins, there are several theories. Here are a few of them:
Artistic License
It is most commonly believed that these decorative designs were added to coins in order to help frame the subjects featured on the coins. It gives the illusion of a thicker rim while at the same time providing a decorative component to a utilitarian feature of a coin.

Better Protection
"The primary purpose of the rim on a coin is to help to protect the design elements from wearing away prematurely. A thicker rim would last longer and give better protection to the highest points on the design elements.
Ease of Striking
A thicker rim would provide better protection to the design elements of the coin but it would be more difficult to strike. If you look at a comment United States coin you will see a raised flat surface around the entire circumference of the coin. If this was made thicker in order to provide additional protection, it may impact the artistic design of the coin. Additionally, it could cause problems in the striking process and the quality of coins would suffer.
Early American Coinage History
Most coinage produced in the 18th and 19th century had denticles around the rims of the coins. Keep in mind, that these coins were struck on the coining press that was operated by hand.

"A mint worker would have to use extreme force on a spindle attached to the top of the coining press in order to achieve enough pressure to impart the design on the planchet.

"Modern coining presses also use a collar to help form the coin during the striking process. In the early days of the mint, coining collars were not used and the metal was allowed to flow freely outward.

"This led to inconsistent diameters and edges that were rounded instead of square.

"It is thought that the addition of denticles around the rim would help restrict the metal flow so that the design elements in the deepest recesses of the coining die would fill in during the striking process. It is not known for certain if this really helped produce better quality coins.

"Currently, the United States Mint uses modern coining presses that can achieve tremendous pressure at a consistent rate. Therefore, the use of denticles around the rim of the coin is no longer mechanically necessary. However, you might see it return to a United States coins if an artist so chooses to use it."https://www.thespruce.com/denticles-on-coins-768440

Dentuck · March 9, 2018 12:16PM

The Newman Numismatic Portal has a few instances of dentil from the 1940s and '50s. I haven't searched further back than 1910.

Insider2 · March 9, 2018 12:25PM

@Dentuck Thanks, but need the reference book you found it in for verification.

@blitzdude posted: "Reeds are on the coins side (thickness), I believe they are talking at the edge of the surface of the obverse / reverse. Rgds"

Thanks for clarifying what we have been discussing for anyone who did not know the difference between a coin's edge reeds and its toothed border (when present).

blitzdude · March 9, 2018 12:38PM

That cat was referring to the dentils as reeds. I simply corrected it. I know what is being discussed up in here. Rgds

keets · March 9, 2018 12:51PM

a few instances of dentil from the 1940s and '50s.

Dentuck, did you find that reference in a sales catalogue of some kind?? it seems to me that will be where the term(s) will be most likely to be found. I have seen it many times as "dentil" and suppose that it is a term used by certain cataloguers. the instances that are most recent for me were back around 2002-05 when I used to travel up to Dearborn for the MSNS Thanksgiving weekend show. they always had an auction on Saturday night and the auctioneer was Craig Whitford. Dentil seemed to be his choice when describing things.

I have quite a number of old sales catalogues and "Numismatist" copies pre-WWII that may have a reference to the two words.

What do you call the "teeth" around the rim of some coins?

1 Do you use:

2 What and where is the earliest usage of either of these terms found?

Comments

Leave a Comment

Categories