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The perils of ebay photography
ChrisH821
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In your opinion are these photographs legitimate? And particularly what do you notice about the ones in the flip?
Explanation to come.
Collector, occasional seller
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Based on the sheer NUMBER of photos, I'm going to say, "No". It's pretty hard to doctor multiple photos, and make them all look like the same coin(?)
Photos through flips are notorious for lots of artifact. I wouldn’t try to make any conclusions or decisions from them. For the other photos, the quality of the photography and lighting technique isn’t very good but I wouldn’t call them doctored.
The reverse has significant negative eye appeal IMO.
Maybe doctored isn't the right word, over-sharpened or over-compressed maybe.. I don't really know about photo processing or how to tell what's going on but these just look like something is wrong when trying to see surface details.
Collector, occasional seller
Maybe the coin actually looks like the photos? Overdipped to a flat white color with no remaining luster? Starting to retone?
Ignore the long "scratch" it's on the flip.
*actually I will leave this picture out since I don't want to influence responses
Collector, occasional seller
Photos are probably good. But, looks like a messed with washed out dollar.
Buy it and let us know. If it's bad send it back.
bob
Yeah one would think that..
Collector, occasional seller
photos are fine
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
About 10 years ago, when I first started getting serious with coin photography, I remember experimenting with a '26-D Peace dollar and lighting.
The same coin, shot minutes apart, but with a huge difference in lighting intensity and direction yielded these two photos taken "raw" (without the usual pre-programmed adjustments cameras normally make).
The first was then adjusted with contrast to overcome its excessive softness. And shadows were reduced. Otherwise it was undoctored (no adjustments to sharpness, definition, black point, surface touch-up, etc.).
Pretty extreme difference.
My point is different results can be achieved from benign technique unintended to deceive. I don't see any issues other than those cited by @BryceM.
Lance.
Interesting.. Let me toss this into the mix now. This is a picture that I took after receiving the coin in the OP
The big "scratch" is on the flip.
I should add, the Obverse picture in the OP after the flip picture can be clicked on and enlarged.
Collector, occasional seller
It's just flat lighting from the wrong side of the portrait.
The photos neither cause me angst nor compel me to want the coin.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Looks like a lot of hairlines that weren't as noticeable in the previous pictures?
Bingo. And I took that picture trying to hide them.. so how do they not show up in the original pictures?
Collector, occasional seller
The surfaces are much flatter in the Seller's pics than the one you took. Bigger question here is......... why are you buying raw off of ebay? LOL. That's an aggravating row to hoe.
Now that they are pointed out, you can see the hairlines in the large original pics. You have to look close tho'. That's the only thing bad about relying on a sellers photos and buying raw coins. The sellers pics are more subdued than yours and that hides the hairlines more. With all the pics, doesn't look like they were trying to hide them, just don't think any of the pics brought them out. You could be using a different type of lighting that shows them more.
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@lkeigwin posted it perfectly.
Hairlines often go one direction. Set up the light along the hairlines & they disappear. Set up the light across the hairlines and they look terrible. There are many photo techniques that involve position and lighting that have nothing to do with “juicing” or “doctoring” the photos. An experienced photographer can portray it any way they want. A good photographer doesn’t show too much or hide too much, but aims to portray the character of the coin as it appears in-hand.
I'm going to invoke Hanlon's Razor with regard to the pictures. The hairlines are clearly visible on the originals in the flip, the first picture makes the coin look really dead, and it's just not that attractive of a coin. That the hairlines pop under different lighting isn't surprising. Does this seller show a pattern of photographic deception like others we know about that are more obvious about it?
If you don't like the coin, politely return it.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Light source and intensity -> around the L (of LIBERTY) you can see them in this pic outside the flip
Here are pictures of it blasted with light.
I returned it to the seller but now he is saying that I cleaned the coin and is disputing my return. I am beyond angry.
His description specifically stated "uncleaned"
Collector, occasional seller
Oh, he does somehow have 100% feedback and he "allows" 30 day returns.
The 100%FB is the reason I trusted his assessment of uncleaned
Collector, occasional seller
Buying raw without a 100% return privilege is a recipe for drama.
I have enough problems. No time for drama.
I agree and he does allow returns... but what am I to do when he just claims I am the one who did this? It's his word against mine and we both have 100% feedback. Although I have no idea if he has a history of this sort of thing.
Collector, occasional seller
It was probably a mistake to share your latest photos with the seller, if that's what you did to explain your return. It would have been better to just say "It's not for me" and leave it at that. Now the seller will use your photos against you.
eBay tends to side with buyers so you may be okay. But I had a bad experience once where it was the opposite. So there's no telling.
Fight hard. I hope you win.
Lance.
My last return did not have contact with me. They created a return through eBay with the reason - I just didn't like it. eBay approved and they printed return label. If they complain, link this thread. eBay may pay you off if they don't.
I would be very surprised if linking this thread to an ebay dispute made a whit of difference. eBay doesn't work that hard. They make decisions as quickly as our host grades a coin. Follow their rules and you win. If things get messy with allegations of tampering and finger pointing it's a coin toss.
Lance.
Lighting and hairlines are an issue in coin photography (I am not a coin photographer) that I have seen over the years.... as stated above, the angle of lighting is critical in either showing them or concealing them. I look carefully at any picture if considering a purchase...and I never buy from a picture if the coin is valuable. Cheers, RickO
I actually had a customer scrub a Liberty nickel to try and remove a small spot and then return the coin to me. To his credit, when I contacted him and pointed out that he had cleaned it, he admitted to it. But, I didn't really feel I had much choice and just refunded his money and moved on.
The sword does cut both ways. Just saying. And you can bash eBay all you want, but the same thing could happen on BST or anyplace else. And, y'all do know about "show lighting", don't you?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I agree that it would have been better to simply tell the seller you were not satisfied.. and return the coin without further details. A reputable seller would settle up the matter quickly. Though this seller has 100% feedback, what is the total number of feedbacks? (how long have they been in business?) And... I have seen 'good' sellers go bad... have had some experience there before. Good luck in getting it resolved... will be however ebay rolls the dice...
Just got a notification: eBay Customer Service has issued a refund and the case is closed.
Looks like they saw the truth.
Collector, occasional seller
Last time I did that(maybe a year ago) the seller rejected my return and the eBay rep told me I should have used item not as described, otherwise it is just considered buyers remorse. They did fix it for me though. There really should be a special return reason for coins.
Collector, occasional seller
I have seen many Peace Dollars with a light layer of tarnish that looked like this. I don't think that the photos are doctored. They look "right on" to me.
As for taking multiple photos, I do that many times. My goal is get a set of two photos that show the coin as it looks in hand. I sit with coin in front of me when I am processing the pictures and try to get a look that mateches the coin. Sometimes that can involve multiple pictures sets because some coins look different depending upon the angle of the photo.
For example both views of this Charles I six pence are accurate.
If you look at it "straight down" it looks like this.
From an angle, it looks like this.
Given that the coin looks like this in person, I don't see the harm in showing both views, BUT of you only showed the colorful look, that would be deceptive.
Glad it was resolved! Ebay favors buyers more than sellers, so not a surprise
Where is the coin now? did eBay pay it, or charge seller?
They do not appear to be so. This is a spongy subject, like conservation vs. cleaning. If I am using "auto-adjust" to make a poor photo look more like the actual coin, is it a doctored photo? I think we have to be careful when we talk about photo enhancements. If it is done to make the coin look more (or less) then it is, then it is an absolute no-no. If it is done to provide the most realistic view of what the coin actually looks like. Then it is a good thing.
The coin was sent back almost a week ago. Looks like the seller refunded me, not ebay.
Collector, occasional seller
That sounds like the outcome that should happen. Glad to hear it.
I will guarantee you nobody can accurately grade a coin thru cellophane. I’ll pass everytime if I can’t take it out of any flip. The cellophane tends to hide imperfections especially hairlines.
I agree, however in this case the original seller photos IN the flip are the only ones that show an indication of surface hairlines.
Collector, occasional seller
Part of first pic at actual size, what are all these "checker board" artifacts?
Collector, occasional seller
I’ll tell ya just exactly what they are. It’s from the cellophane casting shadows over the surfaces of the coin. If you keep it out of focus just enough to see the coin somewhat it’ll pick up all kinds of shadows and this checkering affect.
But that picture was outside of the flip. My thought was it was something caused by image processing
Collector, occasional seller
Then it’s just out of focus enough to kinda see the coin. The seller’s playing games with his camera. I would leave negative feedback right now and open a claim for a refund if you haven’t already done that. The coin has been harshly cleaned as seen in front of Miss Liberty’s face in that field. Some of these sellers should be thrown in jail for fraud and misrepresentation of the coin being sold. Sounds like this seller is hell bent to rip people off.
First negative I've had to give in 15 years.
Collector, occasional seller
I think the original photos were "Retouched" by someone who knew what they were doing. They used an editing technique called "Fogging" that utilizes contrast and noise reduction to "paint" specific areas of the photo with a "color picker" that matches the undamaged area of the object, Once the desired effect is created, a "Blur" technique is used to soften and blend in the edges of the retouched areas. It is sophisticated work but most photo-edit software can be manipulated to fabricate this type of touchup. You just need a little practice. Below is a portion of the original "In-Flip" image with the dark areas showing were this or a similar technique was used. You can see how the hairlines were eliminated by blending.
I agree with the seller, you must have scrubbed the coin with a Brillo pad the moment you opened the package. Case closed!!
That's pretty close to what he told me
Collector, occasional seller
Interesting, could be. I don't know why someone would go through that sort of trouble for a $90 coin. He did mention something about a supplier so chances are he never even looked at this coin.
Collector, occasional seller
eBay doesn't need to "approve" of returns. It's a seller setting.> @ChrisH821 said:
I think it's just pixellation
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
It's a pain to have to return stuff; and I have had mixed satisfaction based on pictures provided. Of course certification helps in getting a better idea of quality, but I had a PCGS Bust dime that the pictures showed as lustrous, the coin in hand was inferior; I returned got blocked.