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Third Party Grading of World Coins.... interested in longer term perspective...

Perhaps like many here, my collecting trajectory has been:
- collecting US coins as a kid before there were slabs
- a return to collecting in adulthood, quickly transitioning to slabs for various reasons (after tuition paid)
- a growing interest in World coins - both raw and certified.

As I am more interested in collecting world coins, I am wondering if World coin collectors can comment on the rate of uptake of third party grading? Note - I am not asking if you think TPG is a good thing, whether you think coins should be slabbed or not, but whether the number of certified world coins is flat, increasing slowly, or increasing quickly.

In the areas that I collect, I have noticed 1) more PCGS graded world coins available on auction venues such as ebay, 2) more dealers who previously offered only raw coins starting to offer some certified coins - sometimes in boluses suggesting that a submission had returned from PCGS, and 3) a number of coins that I believe were graded at PCGS Paris office.

I'd appreciate what other collectors and dealers have noticed. Thanks in advance.

My current "Box of 20"

Comments

  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭✭✭

    World coins sold in the US are generally slabbed. But out of the US, in my experience, are rarely certified. It is expensive, not to mention a huge risk, to mail coins to NGC or PCGS from many countries. I learned that is illegal in Mexico to mail coins, for example. And any frequent flyer in Calicó or other European auction houses can testify that raw is the way they work.

  • mkman123mkman123 Posts: 6,849 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2018 11:29PM

    I simply don't understand how with the chinese faking so many things why the rest of the world collectors wouldn't want their coins slabbed and authenticated. NGC, PCGS, or ANACs slabbed coins provide a peace of mind.

    Case in point, on another forum, a australian collector was mentioning a australian pattern dollar.......the fakes look pretty much identical to the authentic one. This coin sells for a least 1k easily and a quick search on ebay found many fakes being sold at that price. I'd rather just get a slabbed one by PCGS or NGC vs paying so much for something that turns out to be a fake later in the future.

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  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just take a look to the most recent auction by Aureo & Calico https://www.aureo.com/en/subasta/0306-1 in the 46 world coins listed i only saw, after a quick scan, only one graded. Of the 49 coins listed for Ferdinand VII, none appear to be graded, and so on. Last i participated at an auction at Baldwin's and Künker, none of the coins I saw were graded. If it is catching up, is slowly IMO. Perhaps @Boosibri can elaborate further?

  • Timbuk3Timbuk3 Posts: 11,658 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I collect coins from Japan. I've notice that the market for Japanese graded coins, both PCGS and NGC have been relatively flat !!! :(

    Timbuk3
  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Abuelo said:
    Just take a look to the most recent auction by Aureo & Calico https://www.aureo.com/en/subasta/0306-1 in the 46 world coins listed i only saw, after a quick scan, only one graded. Of the 49 coins listed for Ferdinand VII, none appear to be graded, and so on. Last i participated at an auction at Baldwin's and Künker, none of the coins I saw were graded. If it is catching up, is slowly IMO. Perhaps @Boosibri can elaborate further?

    Well, at the recent Worlds Fair of Money in Berlin I'd say that year on year the number of graded coins at the shows went from about 5% to maybe 10%. During that years time there is a new French grading service, a Russian grading service being started. I see a steady increase in CCS graded coins in England with PCGS/NGC as well. On a recent trip most dealers in Paris on Rue Vivienne, being in close proximity to PCGS, now are featuring many graded coins where as before there was none. NGC is opening an office in London, etc, etc

  • lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 43,194 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Slabbing has yet to make inroads into the Ancient coin market, and seems unlikely to gain much of a major market share there, since collectors of ancients are like many collectors of Early American Coppers- not only in their old-school traditionalist ways, but for many practical reasons.

    However, in more "modern" World coins (in other words, pretty much any milled coinage from the 1600s onward, I do think it is gaining acceptance, but it's still for the time being a "drop in the bucket".


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  • celaviecelavie Posts: 31 ✭✭

    I now focus on World coins, particularly those of sub-Saharan Africa. In many cases the various attributes, patterns, test strikes, as well as various circulation strikes have not been methodically discussed, identified or attributed in the numismatic literature. I have found it invaluable that PCGS has and is, graciously allowing my input on various coins that have heretofore not been clearly identified and attributed - they are being slabbed and variants identified (particularly Congo pieces). Of the pieces I am particularly interested in - many continue to appear in the marketplace - continually miss-identified, with inaccurate descriptions. Here is were I feel for me and my collection at least, that TPG is so important. That is not to say it is perfect, I have seen and own coins that they (TPG) have miss-identified and the inaccuracies are then carried over into the marketplace when/where they are often sold with descriptions based on the graded slab - that was inaccurate (or just wrong) in the first place.

    I have seen a distinct uptick in graded World coins (Africa) showing up in major European auctions in recent years. While I search for both graded and ungraded pieces, I believe the graded pieces on the World market make it obviously much better for the sight-unseen buyer to acquire them - particularly higher priced pieces. No one wants to deal with the issues/expense of returning ungraded (or graded ones for that matter) coins Internationally - that were not what they were touted to be!

  • Bob13Bob13 Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks all for the thoughtful comments. I, too have been curious about how successful the foreign offices have been for PCGS and NGC. At least a quick glance at the PCGS I cannot find how many coins have gone through the Paris office, for example. If any one has any information that would be great.

    I guess overall there seems to be low acceptance of TPG, but maybe a noticeable tick upwards in the last year or 2 (based on @Boosibri 's comments)? Also seems like some heterogeneity, which is expected.

    I will echo your point, @celavie , I relish looking for TPG graded coins I am interested in. I have a very difficult time judging surfaces from many world dealer pictures. Even if a return privilege is offered, the time and hassle to return a coin seems so great that I do not take many chances on raw coins, certainly none of great value. I think I can even "read" the PCGS slab shots well enough to get a sense of what the coin looks like in hand. So while not always perfect, it is an added layer of security about a purchase I like.

    A related question - do TPG world coins currently have any substantial premium attached to them?

    My current "Box of 20"

  • ElmhurstElmhurst Posts: 768 ✭✭✭

    Regarding the premiums, I noticed high grade Scandavia (MS 65 and 66) going for 2-3 times the Krause uncirculated prices in recent HA sales.

  • mkman123mkman123 Posts: 6,849 ✭✭✭✭

    I'm collecting thai coins at this time and definitely slabbed graded coins are selling for far more than ungraded raw coins. I'm not too keen on raw older coins from this country due to the chinese counterfeiting anything and everything. I want the peace of mind that what I paid $200 for now won't become a $0 10 years from now when I sell it after discovering its a fake.

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  • mvs7mvs7 Posts: 1,661 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2018 12:57PM

    I've definitely noticed an uptick in the last few years for certified coins in the area I collect, world coins manufactured at US mints; for example, many Central and South American coins from the early 20th century. In some cases, fairly common coins are becoming available certified in MS64-66 for ridiculous premiums on eBay and elsewhere (where it would be much cheaper to patiently find a similar example raw and submit it yourself), but also some condition rarities and absolute rarities are now showing up slabbed at a less ridiculous markup. I think that's a good thing for coins bought online, as I am still fairly hesitant to buy any expensive raw coin online from Europe, Asia or South/Central America.

  • KkathylKkathyl Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭✭✭

    slabs are slowly increasing

    Best place to buy !
    Bronze Associate member

  • BjornBjorn Posts: 529 ✭✭✭

    I've lived in Scotland for the last 11 years, and think that Boosibri has a good summary of what i have seen in Europe. I think that the delay in opening offices in Europe may have stunted the demand for third party grading, and later the fees and potential for loss (most European countries have fairly good postal systems, but not all) helped slow down adoption. That said, it seems a combination of local grading services and increased market penetration is slowly making third party grading more desirable. If NGC opens a London office I would be willing to send a lot more coins for certification - right now I have to send to either Paris (more expensive) or California (longer shipping).

    Outside of Europe, I have noticed that Chinese and Indian coins in third party holders tend to bring much higher sale values than raw examples.

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,721 ✭✭✭✭✭

    TPG over time may help establish condition rarity which will likely have ramifications on valuations. Some collectors and dealers who have been at this for decades already have an appreciation for this. But several areas of the world market have not been adequately researched. And this hopefully will also change over time as interest spikes upward.

    At the last NYint, I noticed an increase in slabbed coins from the prior year. And the increase has momentum and will likely continue. What remains to be seen is how the valuations will play out and it still seems to be premature to handicap. Just to speculate, it seems probable that high end coins should do well over the long term even with the cyclical nature of coin markets.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • In Australia PCGS dominates the slabbed coin market. Most coins are however sold raw. Postage costs to the US (and back) are horrible and add up to a few hundred dollars for most submissions so getting coins slabbed is an expensive option. I frequently buy decent slabbed coins for less than slabbing costs so it only pays to get the best coins slabbed.

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭✭

    PCGS just jacked up the prices in Paris. To me their strategy is completely illogical as this market needs to be developed and strategy focused on penetration and adoption is needed, not a price premium to the US market. Drive market penetration and then premiumize unless you only want the top 10% of the market. With the amount of world mints in Europe and collectors for that crap the opportunity is ripe with a better strategy.

  • PatARPatAR Posts: 347 ✭✭✭

    I agree that market acceptance is the first step. There are many coins that I prefer raw rather than slabbed. Europeans, from my experience, feel that way about almost every coin.

    The pivotal point will come when a TPG (which may or may not be one of the preferred North American TPGs) develops a certification service that caters to both European and North American collecting sensibilities. Something that both European and North American collectors would bid on from auction houses that deliver worldwide. I'm not entirely certain what form that will take, but the importance of cultural factors in appealing to consumers in any region or market should not be overlooked.

  • "The pivotal point will come when a TPG develops a certification service that caters to both European and North American collecting sensibilities. Something that both European and North American collectors would bid on from auction houses that deliver worldwide."

    Do we not have the basis for that now with PCGS and NGC? Coins from both of these TPG show up regularly in auctions worldwide . . . I recently bought an NGC graded coin in a Greek auction. I have bought both PCGS and NGC coins in International auctions for years - for the very reason that I know their reputation, what they do, what they quarantee and so on. I trust the companies - from experience. As coins from these companies now show up regularly in International auctions, is it not safe to assume that a majority of dealers, buyers, and collectors worldwide now accept them/their standards as a basic "numismatic industry standard" . . ?

    Wondering what "cultural factors" would make a particular TPG more or less appealing to customers . . . ?

    Should only American companies certify U.S. coins, a French grading service only grade French coins, or should the French only buy coins by a French service, or Americans only from U.S. companies . . .

    :) Not picking on the French (I am French/American) ;) and I am looking forward to seeing some of the new French TPG coins at some point . . .

    . . . Just food for discussion.

    RKL
    numiscongo.com

  • Bob13Bob13 Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am putting this thread back up to the top.

    Any one feel that there has been any further uptake of slabs in the last 4 years or so?

    My current "Box of 20"

  • John ConduittJohn Conduitt Posts: 350 ✭✭✭

    From what people were saying in 2018, no. Slabbing might even be less popular. It’s not needed for hammered coins and too expensive for most milled coins, not least if you don’t buy coins you don’t understand via eBay and don’t fancy posting your best coins to Paris for a few months at great expense.

  • cwtcwt Posts: 291 ✭✭✭

    Not too sure how popular they are in Germany. In the recent Peus auction of the Graichen collection, I don't recall seeing any slabbed coins. That said, they do seem to be far more prevalent in UK auctions and dealer sites than they once were.

  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 4,302 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think the smart auctioneers certify any high-grade coins that they expect American bidders to be interested in. And I think that is a good move.

    For example, I purchased, sight unseen, two Mexican coins from Aureo that were slabbed MS65RB. Having been badly burned by Cayon in the past, I would not have bid as high on these two coins had they not been slabbed (and would probably have lost them to people who had seen them in person).

  • jgennjgenn Posts: 735 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Many of the Colección Plvs Ultra were slabbed and I bought the top pop 1642 ecu in a PCGS slab from CGB numismatique Paris.

  • SapyxSapyx Posts: 1,976 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here in Australia, I have seen slabs slowly, very slowly, start to increase. That's up from a baseline of "effectively zero slabbed coins" about eight years ago.

    I'm a member of four coin clubs, and of the fifty-plus members regularly attending those clubs, there is only one person in one of the clubs who is an enthusiastic evangelist for slabbed coins. Everyone else, you have to spend five minutes explaining exactly what slabs are, and why you might want to pay $200 to somebody over in America to take your coin, entomb it in plastic, and put a "wrong" grade on it.

    For dealers, I have seen the occasional slab for sale, but it is still a rare exception, and almost always the coins in question are American coins that have been imported here, rather than Australian or other world coins. On the plus side, I vary rarely see the basement-slabbers like NNC sitting proudly alongside the PCGS and NGC slabs, with the same premium pricetags applied equally to both - I used to see that a lot about ten years ago, when about half the "slabbed coins" in dealer stocks were NNC or other home-brand labels.

    And in February this year, the local coin auction company in my home city had their first PCGS-only online auction - the first time I have seen such a thing being offered here in Australia. I haven't heard any feedback on how successful it was.

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  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Sapyx said:
    Here in Australia, I have seen slabs slowly, very slowly, start to increase. That's up from a baseline of "effectively zero slabbed coins" about eight years ago.

    I'm a member of four coin clubs, and of the fifty-plus members regularly attending those clubs, there is only one person in one of the clubs who is an enthusiastic evangelist for slabbed coins. Everyone else, you have to spend five minutes explaining exactly what slabs are, and why you might want to pay $200 to somebody over in America to take your coin, entomb it in plastic, and put a "wrong" grade on it.

    For dealers, I have seen the occasional slab for sale, but it is still a rare exception, and almost always the coins in question are American coins that have been imported here, rather than Australian or other world coins. On the plus side, I vary rarely see the basement-slabbers like NNC sitting proudly alongside the PCGS and NGC slabs, with the same premium pricetags applied equally to both - I used to see that a lot about ten years ago, when about half the "slabbed coins" in dealer stocks were NNC or other home-brand labels.

    And in February this year, the local coin auction company in my home city had their first PCGS-only online auction - the first time I have seen such a thing being offered here in Australia. I haven't heard any feedback on how successful it was.

    I have a curious question for you. Out of all the countries in the world I have found the Aussie grading standards to be the toughest of all. My experience isn't just a 1 off type thing either. I think the most glaring difference is there doesn't seem to be an AU grade in the Australian grading system. I will say this was from over a decade ago from trading with a few Blokes Downunder. Basically what I experience was any coin, regardless of luster...if it had any wear at all it was an XF! I bought a couple of wonderful Early florins and shillings as XF's that I'm sure PCG or NGC would grade at least AU55.

    So my big question is are you Blokes still grading that tough or have your grading standards become Americanized? If your standards are still tough, what are your thoughts about coins certified AU by us Yanks?

  • SapyxSapyx Posts: 1,976 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @amwldcoin said:
    Out of all the countries in the world I have found the Aussie grading standards to be the toughest of all.

    Really? In my experience, British grading is still tougher. My rule of thumb is: American AU-50 is Australian EF, and British gVF.

    @amwldcoin said:
    I think the most glaring difference is there doesn't seem to be an AU grade in the Australian grading system. I will say this was from over a decade ago from trading with a few Blokes Downunder. Basically what I experience was any coin, regardless of luster...if it had any wear at all it was an XF!

    More or less, yes. We do have "aUnc" grade, though the definition tends to be fairly literal: an aUnc coin is an Unc coin that's had a hint of rub, or broken lustre, or a few more scratches than can be explained by handling within the Mint. If a coin has clear, obviously visible wear, it can't possibly be anywhere near "almost uncirculated".

    @amwldcoin said:
    So my big question is are you Blokes still grading that tough or have your grading standards become Americanized? If your standards are still tough, what are your thoughts about coins certified AU by us Yanks?

    Yes, Australian grading standards are still stricter than US standards. This is what I meant by people getting coins back with the "wrong grade": someone pays $200 to send their EF coin to America and back again, and get a grade that looks like it is way too high: AU55, or even low MS. Which means that, when we sell graded coins, in the interest of full disclosure, we have to go around saying "Yes, it says 'AU', on the wrapper, but it's really just EF". Nobody likes talking down their own coins when they're trying to sell them, but it's deemed necessary; someone who just leaves the American grade up there with no explanation for converting it into local equivalents, is likely to be accused of overgrading.

    There would have been a lot less resistance to American grading companies infiltrating the Australian market, if the American graders had used Australian grading standards to grade Australian coins. Too late now, of course.

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  • deepblue30deepblue30 Posts: 70 ✭✭✭

    I have been in the coin collecting for quite some time, I believe that the rise in slabbed coins in Australia is very much on the rise. I know of one dealer who sent tens of thousands of coins to the USA for grading, and is still going strong on auctioning more such coins. Myself alone, I have 4000 graded coins in my collection and would not buy a expensive coin that hadn't been graded. I do buy mint, proof set and send them to be slabbed but try to send a minimum of 100 coins at a time. The older coin dealers hate slabbed coins for the very reason that the grade is not subjective. The more progressive dealers are getting on board and are realizing that the customers like the slabs and the whole set registry concept. IMO

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @mkman123 said:
    I simply don't understand how with the chinese faking so many things why the rest of the world collectors wouldn't want their coins slabbed and authenticated. NGC, PCGS, or ANACs slabbed coins provide a peace of mind.

    Case in point, on another forum, a australian collector was mentioning a australian pattern dollar.......the fakes look pretty much identical to the authentic one. This coin sells for a least 1k easily and a quick search on ebay found many fakes being sold at that price. I'd rather just get a slabbed one by PCGS or NGC vs paying so much for something that turns out to be a fake later in the future.

    It depends upon the coin. Most world coins are too scarce, not expensive enough or both to make good counterfeit candidates. This doesn't mean it never happens, just that some are much better to counterfeit than others.

    That's why Sovereigns, Spanish colonial cob 8R, and pillar dollars are heavily counterfeited. Usually very common but worth enough to fake and pass off in large numbers.

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @deepblue30 said:
    I have been in the coin collecting for quite some time, I believe that the rise in slabbed coins in Australia is very much on the rise. I know of one dealer who sent tens of thousands of coins to the USA for grading, and is still going strong on auctioning more such coins. Myself alone, I have 4000 graded coins in my collection and would not buy a expensive coin that hadn't been graded. I do buy mint, proof set and send them to be slabbed but try to send a minimum of 100 coins at a time. The older coin dealers hate slabbed coins for the very reason that the grade is not subjective. The more progressive dealers are getting on board and are realizing that the customers like the slabs and the whole set registry concept. IMO

    I'd rate Australia as the second moist financialized coin market after the US, somewhat ahead of China for that distinction. It's not representative (at all) of world coins generally.

    It's an unusual market in the sense that it has the unique combination where many of their "classics" (pre-decimals) are somewhat scarcer but still available with enough apparent variety to maintain collector interest. Only a few real rarities so that completion in most denominations is an attainable aspirational goal for most collectors, if they will compromise on the quality.

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @pruebas said:
    I think the smart auctioneers certify any high-grade coins that they expect American bidders to be interested in. And I think that is a good move.

    For example, I purchased, sight unseen, two Mexican coins from Aureo that were slabbed MS65RB. Having been badly burned by Cayon in the past, I would not have bid as high on these two coins had they not been slabbed (and would probably have lost them to people who had seen them in person).

    Yes, I see the same thing to some extent. The Norweb 1732 Mexico 4R was sold by Heritage or Stacks (can't remember) but wasn't in a holder until the sale.

    I also checked the PCGS pop report for what I collect for the first time in a while and noticed that a small collection of those I want are now graded. When this happens, it may be in preparation for sale in the not too distant future.

    What I see happening more is that, since there are an increasing number of more affluent US buyers going after Latin coinage, the trend is for them to buy the best coins and leave the rest to everyone else. These are the coins which end up in holders. Most of the rest, almost never.

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @celavie said:
    As coins from these companies now show up regularly in International auctions, is it not safe to assume that a majority of dealers, buyers, and collectors worldwide now accept them/their standards as a basic "numismatic industry standard" . . ?

    This isn't my conclusion. They don't use the Sheldon scale, except for graded coins.

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Bob13 said:
    Perhaps like many here, my collecting trajectory has been:
    - collecting US coins as a kid before there were slabs
    - a return to collecting in adulthood, quickly transitioning to slabs for various reasons (after tuition paid)
    - a growing interest in World coins - both raw and certified.

    As I am more interested in collecting world coins, I am wondering if World coin collectors can comment on the rate of uptake of third party grading? Note - I am not asking if you think TPG is a good thing, whether you think coins should be slabbed or not, but whether the number of certified world coins is flat, increasing slowly, or increasing quickly.

    In the areas that I collect, I have noticed 1) more PCGS graded world coins available on auction venues such as ebay, 2) more dealers who previously offered only raw coins starting to offer some certified coins - sometimes in boluses suggesting that a submission had returned from PCGS, and 3) a number of coins that I believe were graded at PCGS Paris office.

    I'd appreciate what other collectors and dealers have noticed. Thanks in advance.

    If you are a dealer, it makes sense to submit any coin where the premium is enough to offset the grading fee and time spent. It doesn't really have anything to do with collecting. It's a business decision.

    Yes, someone is buying it but it's not necessarily because the buyer actually prefers slabbed coins. US collectors do but outside the US, most buyers don't care enough about differences represented by one or even several points on the holder label to pay US premiums. In most countries, there is no resale market to capture this premium so they can only get it form a US based buyer.

    A low proportion but high number of world coins are only or at least mostly available in slabs on the relatively infrequent occasion it comes up for sale, in better quality. This isn't relevant to most European coins (which are only scarce in low proportion) but is too many others. It happens because an outsized proportion of the better coins were and are owned by US based collectors who bought it a long time ago.

    To answer your primary question, to the extent the number is increasing, it's mostly due to demand from US buyers. There are exceptions such as China and Australia but it isn't many. Most of the coins aren't valuable enough to bother (cost is an outsized proportion of the coin value) and most collectors would rather spend their money on coins, not grading fees.

  • neildrobertsonneildrobertson Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Even though third party grading has been in Europe for almost 10 years now, I've only seen it start to catch on in the last 3 years. Most old school collectors over there shun grading, much like they did here. I don't think they'll follow the US trajectory exactly. Adoption will be much faster.

    I think more and more people are starting to "figure out" the 70 point system and how it works. Many are realizing its much more consistent than what they are getting otherwise from dealers/auction houses, even if they don't agree with how points are assigned. I'm seeing more of the established dealers starting to submit themselves.

    NGC appears to have a slight edge in Germany with collectors because they have an office in Germany. Collector's are very nervous about the security of their coins and not having to send them abroad to get graded is a competitive advantage (even if NGC is themselves sending them abroad for grading afterwards).

    IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
    "Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me

  • 1984worldcoins1984worldcoins Posts: 596 ✭✭✭✭✭

    All I can say is I intend to grade a big part of my collection, I know this will be expensive but some coins need to be also cleaned, some are very rare, some are rare and expensive, etc. I cant wait to see them in nice little slabs.

    Coinsof1984@martinb6830 on twitter

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