Might as well have lit your cigars...

tradedollarnut · January 25, 2018 7:06PM

.... with hundred dollar bills. Note the prices realized:

https://coins.ha.com/itm/trade-dollars/1873-cc-t-1-ms64-pcgs-the-first-trade-dollar-from-the-carson-city-mint-the-73-cc-was-produced-to-the-extent-of-just-124/a/384-3775.s?hdnJumpToLot=1x=0&y=0

https://coins.ha.com/itm/a/1271-4911.s

For what it’s worth, this is the second finest I’ve ever seen - just the absence of original toning in quality against my old set’s Vermuele gem

TLeverage · January 25, 2018 7:13PM

I was wondering why the image quality was so poor on that first listing, then I realized that auction took place in 2005. Still, not sure why that coin was cracked out of a PCGS 64; did the owner expect it to somehow grade higher at NGC? Doesn't look like it has the quality to make that leap.

kaz · January 25, 2018 7:16PM

Yikes! Approx. 25k drop in the APR after 13 yrs.

tradedollarnut · January 25, 2018 7:16PM

@TLeverage said:
I was wondering why the image quality was so poor on that first listing, then I realized that auction took place in 2005. Still, not sure why that coin was cracked out of a PCGS 64; did the owner expect it to somehow grade higher at NGC? Doesn't look like it has the quality to make that leap.

I like this coin better than the NGC65 1877-CC from the same (latter) sale, so an upgrade was totally possible

Coinstartled · January 25, 2018 7:32PM

Better to edit out my comment.

CAC is popular here.

joebb21 · January 25, 2018 7:41PM

Looks like a 65+ in todays standards

Coin Finder · January 25, 2018 7:54PM

Was that coin sent to CAC?

Unknown · January 25, 2018 8:18PM

This content has been removed.

tradedollarnut · January 25, 2018 9:02PM

In hand, the coin is the second best for the date I’ve ever seen

Batman23 · January 25, 2018 9:28PM

Wow! ... The power of plastic

I guess this just shows that the prices are not as strong as they used to be... unless I'm bidding, then they are like double

OldIndianNutKase · January 25, 2018 9:36PM

@afford said:
This is another example that you can't go by the label, I would gladly settle for a lower grade toned original example in a NY second. What a poc imho.

I too find the lack of original toning to limit the sale price. You can collect coins that are graded great or coins that have great eye appeal. Coins with minimal technical flaws often are not very attractive. And coins that have great eye appeal may have a much less than tot POP grade. I often feel that our hobby has been taken over by TPG's that are anally focused on just technical grading details and overall eye appeal seems to be of little consequence.

I do buy top pop coins (that look nice) for uncomfortable $$,,,,,,,,but I also buy fabulous coins for their appearance for very little $$ that have lower grades. And they are what makes collecting fun for me.

OINK

Wabbit2313 · January 25, 2018 10:13PM

@joebb21 said:
Looks like a 65+ in todays standards

You crack that out and send it in raw right now, I would bet a lot of money it would go down. You are dreaming if you think it would go 65+.

tradedollarnut · January 25, 2018 10:26PM

How much shall we bet?

3keepSECRETif2rDEAD · January 26, 2018 12:06AM

@tradedollarnut said:
How much shall we bet?

...now this is how real men sort things out

Broadstruck · January 26, 2018 1:35AM

Can't tell much from those ole scans... Circa 2005 HA bidding used to be a total pot shot if you didn't lot view.

MsMorrisine · January 26, 2018 6:14AM

Victory lap?

Zoins · January 26, 2018 6:18AM

Seems like PCGS > ATS+CAC

nags · January 26, 2018 7:13AM

So, is the decline in price attributed to a softening of the market, preference for a different TPG, or a combination of the two?

ricko · January 26, 2018 7:22AM

I want to see the bet (@TDN vs. @Wabbit2313).... Let's go guys... break out the wallets and set the rules.
This will be interesting.... Cheers, RickO

jmlanzaf · January 26, 2018 8:17AM

@nags said:
So, is the decline in price attributed to a softening of the market, preference for a different TPG, or a combination of the two?

I doubt the slab has much of anything to do with it. Trade dollar enthusiasts probably know all about that coin, the pop is very low.

When you are talking bout $50k+ coins, the market is thin. The original sale might have been much lower without the eventual buyer in it. Now, you remove him (he's the seller) and maybe a couple others and the price will struggle to get back into the stratosphere.

Auctions are NOT the best way to dispose of all coins. That is especially true of unreserved auctions. If you've got a legitimate $100k coin, you need to either sell it with a $100k reserve OR get Legend or Stacks or someone to list it as a Fixed Price $100K item. It is dangerous to risk the lottery nature of an auction. You could win or you could lose.

TwoSides2aCoin · January 26, 2018 8:32AM

@kaz said:
Yikes! Approx. 25k drop in the APR after 13 yrs.

Looks like opportunity presents itself for the person who bides his time and has dry powder.

jmlanzaf · January 26, 2018 8:42AM

@TLeverage said:
I was wondering why the image quality was so poor on that first listing, then I realized that auction took place in 2005. Still, not sure why that coin was cracked out of a PCGS 64; did the owner expect it to somehow grade higher at NGC? Doesn't look like it has the quality to make that leap.

It could simply be that all of his Trade $s are in NGC holders. Some people have a preference for one or the other.

Wabbit2313 · January 26, 2018 8:51AM

@tradedollarnut said:
How much shall we bet?

I am not disputing the niceness of the coin, it is great. I am talking about how tough PCGS is on rare coins right now. 10 Large, but I get to crack and send! If it as tough as FUN was, the coin is doomed!

ElKevvo · January 26, 2018 8:55AM

And let's not forget there was a time that PCGS and NGC were often considered peers in terms of quality and consistency in their grading so often it was a just a preference of the coin owner as to which of the top TPG's the coin was submitted to.

K

BillJones · January 26, 2018 8:57AM

I think that the grade is accurate. It has MS-65 sharpness and smoothness, but the "carbon spots" on the obverse detract from the eye appeal.

Dipped coins are less popular now than they were a decade + ago. That might explain the lower price. It also might be a be matter of one or two specialists not participating in the auction.

shorecoll · January 26, 2018 9:00AM

Cracking that coin won't do any good, the key graders all know the coin. Crack it and have one of the super-secret top level coin docs tone it and your experiment might work. But then you wouldn't know whether the coin or the toning was responsible for the grade.

MacCrimmon · January 26, 2018 9:23AM

I see at least 7 reasons to decline ..... plus what looks like PVC residue ..... plus it looks like it was dipped way back before the first imaging in 2005.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/trade-dollars/1873-cc-t-1-ms64-ngc-cac/a/1271-4911.s?ic3=ViewItem-Auction-Archive-PreviousPricesHeritage-081514

topstuf · January 26, 2018 9:29AM

Well gosh, in the 70's it was standard procedure to ......buy, dip, poke into album.

joebb21 · January 26, 2018 9:31AM

@Wabbit2313 said:

@joebb21 said:
Looks like a 65+ in todays standards

You crack that out and send it in raw right now, I would bet a lot of money it would go down. You are dreaming if you think it would go 65+.

I have always been amazed at the double standard grading services have for "rare" coins vs non rare coins. I dont see the logic in this. It should be one standard across the board. If the coin deserves a ms65 then give it a 65. The market will always determine high and low quality.

With the amount of ms64 examples now being graded ms65, this coin looks to be ms65+ by comparison.

david3142 · January 26, 2018 11:27AM

@joebb21 said:

@Wabbit2313 said:

@joebb21 said:
Looks like a 65+ in todays standards

You crack that out and send it in raw right now, I would bet a lot of money it would go down. You are dreaming if you think it would go 65+.

I have always been amazed at the double standard grading services have for "rare" coins vs non rare coins. I dont see the logic in this. It should be one standard across the board. If the coin deserves a ms65 then give it a 65. The market will always determine high and low quality.

With the amount of ms64 examples now being graded ms65, this coin looks to be ms65+ by comparison.

I have actually noticed a triple standard. I believe key dates are generally graded more strictly than their common counterparts. This is definitely true of Morgans. If you find an 86-O or 84-S or 1901 in a 65 holder, it is absolutely going to be all there and then some. However, when you get into super-rare coins where the grade matters less than the coin’s rank (say 1894-S dimes, 1804 dollars, etc) then the services seem pretty lenient again. I guess in that case the grade guarantee doesn’t matter anymore because there is no easily discernible market price.

TLeverage · January 26, 2018 2:48PM

@tradedollarnut said:

I like this coin better than the NGC65 1877-CC from the same (latter) sale, so an upgrade was totally possible

I'll take your word for it, I've never seen this particular coin in hand. Carbon spots and slightly soft definition on the headdress seemed like large barriers to overcome from the images.

Insider2 · January 26, 2018 3:03PM

@BillJones said: "I think that the grade is accurate. It has MS-65 sharpness and smoothness, but the "carbon spots" on the obverse detract from the eye appeal."

I don't think a coin with that many carbon spots and a scratch next to the date should ever make MS-65. The spots have the look of those that develop after it was graded.

So I agree with: @Wabbit2313 who posted: "You crack that out and send it in raw right now, I would bet a lot of money it would go down. You are dreaming if you think it would go 65+."

I've learned not to bet money on the grade a TPGS would assign to a particular coin anymore as there are too many variables to consider. I've lost each bet I ever made!

jmlanzaf · January 26, 2018 3:06PM

@Insider2 said:
@BillJones said: "I think that the grade is accurate. It has MS-65 sharpness and smoothness, but the "carbon spots" on the obverse detract from the eye appeal."

I don't think a coin with that many carbon spots and a scratch next to the date should ever make MS-65. The spots have the look of those that develop after it was graded.

Those spots were definitely there when NGC graded it because they were there when PCGS originally graded it.

Insider2 · January 26, 2018 3:28PM

@jmlanzaf said:

@Insider2 said:
@BillJones said: "I think that the grade is accurate. It has MS-65 sharpness and smoothness, but the "carbon spots" on the obverse detract from the eye appeal."

I don't think a coin with that many carbon spots and a scratch next to the date should ever make MS-65. The spots have the look of those that develop after it was graded.

Those spots were definitely there when NGC graded it because they were there when PCGS originally graded it.

Nice to know and Interesting. I wonder who sent the coin to PCGS? Who sent it to NGC?

jmlanzaf · January 26, 2018 4:45PM

@Insider2 said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Insider2 said:
@BillJones said: "I think that the grade is accurate. It has MS-65 sharpness and smoothness, but the "carbon spots" on the obverse detract from the eye appeal."

I don't think a coin with that many carbon spots and a scratch next to the date should ever make MS-65. The spots have the look of those that develop after it was graded.

Those spots were definitely there when NGC graded it because they were there when PCGS originally graded it.

Nice to know and Interesting. I wonder who sent the coin to PCGS? Who sent it to NGC?

Bonanno sent it to PCGS. 4T's sent it to NGC.

Insider2 · January 26, 2018 5:10PM

@jmlanzaf responded: "Bonanno sent it to PCGS."

I don't think so. If he had, it would have been slabbed as an MS-66 - or else.

lkeigwin · January 26, 2018 5:26PM

Might as well get the coin images in the thread.
Lance.

Unknown · January 26, 2018 5:33PM

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Insider2 · January 26, 2018 5:44PM

I have a change of

I still don't think it will up grade to an MS-65 but that's a nice looking, truly Mint State coin!

I once heard a grading instructor say that an MS-64 is a long way from perfect. He explained that there was a lot of room between the two grades. I like the grade in this image.

Wabbit2313 · January 26, 2018 6:45PM

Images from the PCGS Holder:

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Images from the NGC holder:
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Unknown · January 26, 2018 6:53PM

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tradedollarnut · January 26, 2018 6:56PM

Wow. Just wow.

There are some overboard comments in this thread. Tell you what - view every single higher graded 1873-CC in hand (like I have) and then get back to me...

Unknown · January 26, 2018 7:01PM

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tradedollarnut · January 26, 2018 7:37PM

You are opining off an image. But so be it

Zoins · January 26, 2018 7:40PM

How many people have seen this coin in hand? I haven't but would love to.

ranshdow · January 26, 2018 7:43PM

I am totally missing the PVC

Unknown · January 26, 2018 7:45PM

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Wabbit2313 · January 26, 2018 9:47PM

There is not any PVC and no way CAC stickers anything with even a hint of PVC.

Unknown · January 26, 2018 9:52PM

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Insider2 · January 26, 2018 11:58PM

@afford said:
I see a tiny amount of PVC, nothing to get alarmed about, but a tiny remnant, and probably another reason for the dip, and btw tiny amounts are typically holdered and caced because of the minuscule size and the fact that tpgs don't use huge mag or plate size photos when grading.

Please educate me! Where, the 12th star?

l agree the coin was dipped.
IMO, those spots are either due to improper neutralization or the person who dipped the coin did not prepare the coin's surfaces before the dip. There are several steps (I've heard there are) in the pre-dip stage that should be done to a coin like this to make sure it does not come out like this. Those spots are EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to remove and the new owner better pray that the "right" person works on this piece - and he better get it done soon! The coin is covered with tiny (and some large ones too) carbon spots! All just IMHO of course.
IMO the light brown stains are from dip residue.

Unknown · January 27, 2018 12:14AM

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Might as well have lit your cigars...

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