Pogue coins mostly disappeared
privaterarecoincollector
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I have a question:
It seems most of the Pogue coins just disappeared, as it seems gone with collectors into deep holes for a longer time.
Only very few coins are still or back on the market, somewhere between 1% and 5%.
Is this a special situation for today and for Pogue or was it similar with the other big sales, that you might remember. How was it with Bass, Eliasberg, Garrett, Norweb ?
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It's not the "named collections" that remove material from circulation, it's the quality/value of the pieces. Eliasberg, for example, had a lot of more modestly priced pieces that moved around. The 1804 dollar, on the other hand, tends to find a long term home.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Also I suspect many of the coins will have their pedigree removed to decouple them from their price history when they do return to the market.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
My perception, which might not be correct, is that those who bought the Pogue coins paid fairly substantial premiums for them. Therefore flipping them in this market would be a challenge. I am sure that some of the coins went to dealers, but in many of those cases the dealers were buying them for clients to fill want lists and auction representation requests.
The short answer is that these coins are in strong hands, be they investors or collectors. Some of them will be on the market again in a few years, but they will not be available immediately.
Overall we are seeing a new trend. Most of the better material is sold at auction, and most it is not making down to the bourse floors. For that reason there is not nearly as much material available as there was years ago.
@PrivateCoinCollector When the Bass patterns were auctioned, my recollection is that there were a relatively large number--not huge, but large--available in the market for several months after the sale. But within about a year, they seemed to have dried up, or at least those identified as "Bass" on the slab became much less common. I hasten to add that others, who were more firmly tied into the market, may have different memories.
While ex-Pogue coins may not be on the market, are they showing up in Registry Sets with their provenance/pedigree intact?
Another ineresting thing is that while PCGS cert verification lists some pedigrees, many are not listed. For example, the PRCC, ex-Ten Eyck, ex-Pogue 1796 quarter doesn't list any pedigrees.
From a historical perspective, I think it would be great for PCGS to have Legacy Registry Sets for pedigrees and then for Cert verification to list and link to those sets. However, I'm not sure how many collectors would like to have the provenance attached.
Here's an article by Ron Guth and associated thread on the challenges of keeping pedigrees intact. Even when a pedigree is known (e.g. in the blog) it is often not attached in cert verification, sometimes at request of the current owner.
With high resolution images available everywhere, is it really that easy to destroy/hide a pedigree? Surely people buying five/six-figure coins, even if they're reholdered, would search to see if they could find the same example sold in the last 10+ years.
You can certainly search for individual coins on an ad hoc basis, but if the pedigrees were detached, it would much harder than if the coins were identified and grouped together.
There are likely many more "deep" collections than known to us humble chickens.
At least we can see many of the coins when they surface. In this day and age, it seems the truly deep ones are the ones without photos on the Internet.
it is hard to disagree with anything BillJones posted in a very succinct manner.
I think it might be really special for the Pogue coins. Also I think most coins would sell for more now, actually almost all of them... I know already about 10 coins I would buy for myself with a 10% or 20% premium, but they are all not for sale. I tried to buy them.
Scary, sounds like the "deep web".
Must suck for Mark Salzberg and co. to see all of the PQ coins crossed to PCGS.
I think most of the coins just went to collectors who waited for these coins for 20 years / didnt expect to be able to buy them during their lifetime. Thats also how it was with me.
I think that many of the people buying these high end sets are in it for the long run, building massive sets. So, it is doubtful the coins would appear on the market right away.
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I think that many of the people buying these high end sets are in it for the long run, building massive sets. So, it is doubtful the coins would appear on the market right away.
Fan of the Oxford Comma
CCAC Representative of the General Public
2021 Young Numismatist of the Year
Put more skin in the game and see what happens! (Assuming you really want them that bad) If they are going to be off the market for many years, this may be your one and only chance to snag them!
The Garrett sales were into a very strong and accelerating market. #4 was in late March of 1981. Then the bottom fell out at the Central States show in early April when New England Rare Coin Galleries had to dump inventory to meet the April 15 tax deadline. I understand that some absolutely identifiable Garrett pieces were in the dump. EVERYTHING went down.
Dave Bowers told a story to the opening session of the ANA Summer Seminar (probably 1981, possibly 1982) about how a dealer named Kenny Fretwell had bought a few Garrett pieces for something like $235,000 (?) to be shipped to him after he paid for them, but he was murdered on the way home from the show. Bowers offered the widow to try to sell the coins to the underbidder so she would not have to pay for them, but she insisted that if her husband had bought them he must have known what he was doing. She never pays. Bottom falls out of market. Bowers & Co. re-auction the coins for somewhere around $90,000.
Very interesting story, but could you clarify who "she" was? The widow of the Garrett Estate (obligated to "buy back") or the widow of the murder victim? If the later, which I assume is the case, then confused as to how selling them to the underbidder would not require her to pay for them yet she never paid for them anyway? Did it turn out she, on behalf of her husband's estate, was not legally obligated to "pay" for them after some legal action so determined or the auction house and/or the consigner just dropped pursuing the matter?
The widow of the murdered bidder was offered an out from the obligation to pay for the lots. She declined.
Eventually she agreed to let Bowers sell the lots and apply that to the estate's debt. I do not know if the estate ever paid off the debt.
How this affected the auction house's settlement with the consignor I have no idea.
This is an interesting thread. I think Bill Jones provides a very plausible view on the Pogue coins. It certainly applies for my segment of the market which is early quarter eagles. I attended the auction and wanted to get just one early quarter eagle but was just unable to compete. Just about all the early quarter eagles went for record money. I really wanted to buy either the 1796 no stars or the with stars but just did not expect the prices that were realized. Not a single early quarter eagle has resurfaced and i don't expect any will anytime soon. At the time, i asked if this was the peak/top of the market event like what happened at Garrett. Now that a little time has passed, i don't think so. Because of this, i bought Whitney 1796 with stars which is not as nice but 100k less. Pre-Pougue, i would not have stretched as much for it.
I was at most of the Pogue auctions and it seemed like a lot of these coins went into private hands and likely to stay that way. They outbid the dealers
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Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I wasn't there, but I got the same feeling from some of my clients who attended the auctions.
And several of my clients were active buyers, because of the quality of the coins and the likelihood that the opportunity might not present itself again for many years.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
I did not participate at all at Pogue (other than being underbidder on one coin) but I bought two lovely specimens in the after market
Still taunting her about the bean-less Dexter-Dunham?
Can you tell us what the other one was?
I am a big fan of the Pogue collection and I still study the auction videos to this day! Judging from some of the buyers profiles i would assume that most of the purchases went to collections for the mid to long term. I am most interested in the status of the "passed" 1 off items not sold and where they currently reside???? As is, I think the world will have to wait some time before any of the most important Pogue pieces show themselves at auction again!
Latari
You guys are phenomenal when it comes to first hand information to those who are not exactly in the loop...thanks.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
This. I think the Pogue collection was different from Bass, Eliasberg, et al. in that it was more high-end, and demand for high-end was (and is) greater during the Pogue auction time frame.
I had all but given up on the coins residing in Pogue, and when they unexpectedly became available, wasn't going to let the opportunity slip by. Bought many coins out of Pogue, and had underbidders remorse on a few more. When I inquired about them post-auction, they were buried and not coming out any time soon. I heard the same from other buyers and dealers who bought for collectors at auction - they aren't going anywhere for a while.
I actually do not like the cheek in that image. hmmm. I'm sure the coin looks better in hand
That coin is amazing. Mint luster 220 years later!
That'll buff out.
Amazing coin!
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
want to share with us a few of your purchases ? I always wonder where the coins are.
The plan for my coins is to keep them at least for the next 20 years and rather to add over time than sell.
The coins I regret on having missed are the 1800 half dime PCGS 68, the 1803/2 half eagle PCGS 66+, the 1795 Draped Bust Dollar SP 66 (although everybody told me its not a 66 really), the 1801 Dollar MS 65 prooflike (I was the underbidder), + a few others.
But overall I am very very happy of course, I probably was one of the biggest buyers at all Pogue auctions.
The coin actually is much more beautiful in reality, its just so hard to make fotos and videos to catch the beauty of a coin. Its an amazing coin !!
My thoughts on the Pogue sale - over the few years that the Pogue sale was offered, there were many great and fabulous coins offered. Yeah, some were expensive compared to some coins offered on the market but others are once in a lifetime acquisitions to add to my set. As long as I can offer to hold these treasures, they are not being offered anytime soon. If I find a replacement for any of those coins, then I may sell my Pogue dup. Hard to believe I will find an upgrade to those.