What are the categories where AU58 coins carry a premium over the low Uncirculated grades?
Coinstartled
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I suspect that PR58 coins are not part of that group.
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From a collector's standpoint, I suspect that nearly any correctly graded AU will be valued higher than a the typically scruffy Unc 60 through 62. Sadly, there are huge quantities of AU or high-EF pieces stuck in slabs and called "MS-62 or MS-63."
You can find a list of the categories here under the Everyman Collections tab.
The first part is such a cliche, trite logic and not true. Maybe a small percentage of high end AUs out weigh the total coin of a few low end UNCs but 95% of the UNCs should be technically Superior.
Now if you wanted to disproportionally weigh some attributes based on personal preferences such as nicks, then maybe some AUs suit your tastes better than some UNCs but that is your tastes and not grading.
It really takes a small mindedness to project scuffed up and baggy Morgans as the prototypical MS61. Most series will find amazing coins in lower UNC grades and almost without exception they will be superior to their AU counter parts.
Now the 2nd part of his statement is true save for the EF exaggeration. But that just goes to sort of prove how much of the myth of the first assertion is. I would guess that many horrible UNCs are really AUs and many of those amazing AUs are just as likely to end up in one of those horrible Low end UNC holders someday, just the type everyone decries.
Man I would love to shop at Roger’s table if he ever became a dealer if he priced coins like he grades. That is during the couple of hours before he went out of business.
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Sorry to have upset a couple of members, but the statement is neither a cliche, or "trite logic" (whatever that is), and it's certainly true IF, and only IF, a collector can identify a correctly graded AU coin.
Your business model I fear would leave you with an empty table. Buyers would love your model, sellers wouldn’t go near you. I do agree that grade inflation is an issue. Jmho
Trite logic = over used logic to the point of being irelavent. That’s what that is.
Nothing personal but you should know better than this as people put added gravitas to your words as a writer/researcher. Under grading and posturing some fictitious or antiquated technical grading standard in a market grading world is as harmful to noobs as over grading or undercutting/under stating eye appeal to the total coin.
Here is are correctly graded but not spectacular MS61 in your fav series, shown me a better AU58. I too have looked at tens of thousands of peace dollars and thousands more graded examples. I haven’t seen any that wouldn’t stand as good of a shot ending up in an UNC holder with another submission or two.
Even if i was to guess your response that this 61 is really an AU (it isn’t as it has full cheek frost). That too would sort of prove my point if one was to put it back into a 58 holder it would be no better than the type of coins in 61 holders as it currently resides. You can’t have both sides of the argument that gradeflation has must low end UNCs being really AUs but then say that AUs are better than most UNC when it comes to market grading. Or that the handful of true technical graders know that real AUs are better than UNCs. Well in that case technically 61 is greater than 58. Sure there are exceptions and perfect combos of attributes for AUs that would make it more marketable than the perfect combo of negative attributes on a lower UNC but that is rare and the exception, not the other way around. I can walk a Baltimore show and not see a true AU64 ( in a 58 holder
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I’ll grant you one can have an original skinned attractive 58 vs a dipped out and processed slider and that the 58 should come out ahead. But that wouldn’t be a grading issue that would be an origality issue.
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PCGS MS61 bust halves. Nicer than many of my 58's, IMO.
These aren't MS61 Morgans.
Lance.
RE: "Trite logic = over used logic to the point of being irelavent. That’s what that is."
No. Logic is never "trite" nor irrelevant. It might become a truism through its clear and useful application, but never trite.
Certainly did not intend to press someone's personal "hot button." Buy and sell what is wished, with whatever standards felt appropriate, but most of all enjoy the hobby and fun of coin collecting.
"What are the categories where AU58 coins carry a premium over the low Uncirculated grades?"
When the AU 58 coins are undergraded and/or the low uncirculated are overgraded.
When the AU 58 coins are attractive and the mint state counterpart isn't.
AU58 is a hot segment presently - it was not always so..... As in all grading, the differences between high AU and low MS are a matter of opinion - and that opinion includes the even more nebulous ingredient of 'eye appeal'....Since there are no grading standards - which makes grading an opinion - then throw in something that has no concrete definition and will vary with individuals, you have a real crap shoot..... Just look at any GTG here on the forum... or discussions about slabbed coins where one says 'right on' and others say well... 'a grade lower' or 'a grade higher'... So... it is all a matter of taste, some skill to at least assign a 'ball park' grade and then let the discussions begin.
Cheers, RickO
I'd rather have a nice, well struck AU-58 in my collection instead of a mushy, dinged up, dull looking 60-62.
Just me, I guess.
Pete
Crypto, I think you are arguing both sides of one argument and I'm not trying to pick a fight. Market grading is the primary reason why so many AU busties were (or are) slabbed as MS. It wouldn't be market grading if they really were all MS. I think the reason we haven't gone to computer grading is that, programming a computer to ignore a certain % loss to rub, would openly admit the issue and if you didn't allow it, you'd have a revolt.
To a point, Lance, none of that rubbed look on that first eagle's head is from wear?
I think the original point was that some AU58 coins carry a premium over the low Uncirculated grades. Because "Everyman" sets are comprised of coins that have been in circulation, there might be more demand for certain coins in AU58 than for the same coins in MS60 through MS62, resulting in higher prices for the AU58 specimens.
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Hard to answer the original question in an age where there are competitive collecting games, some of which favor MS60, others which favor AU58 for the same exact coin. The simple answer should be "eye appeal." Lance's MS61 halves he says are better looking than his AU58s, so the 61s should sell for more. An MS60 84-S Morgan is going to be unattractive, but auction records show a 5x premium over a 58. Doesn't seem right, but that's the way it is. There are probably no series listed in price guides that show 58 prices higher than 60, even though individual sales, where price is based on an individual coins merit, may show otherwise.
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It hard to list "categories." It really depends upon the specific coin. In general most early early U.S. coin that is a true AU-58 is worth as much or more than a low end Mint State piece to me. This also applies to the Classic Head gold sets I've been working upon for the last couple of years. I've paid Mint State money for an AU-58 in an OGL holder. It was as nice or better than some of the MS-62 and even 63 graded coins I've seen.
If there is such a "category" then there is a real problem.
People are under the assumption that "AU58's are MS-65's with a rub", but that is not universally true. There are some AU58's that are MS-65's with a rub, but there are also AU58's that are MS-62's with a rub or even MS-60 with a minor rub.
In general, I don't like generalizations. LOL. Each coin is different. Even all MS-65s aren't identical, could be one moderately distracting mark or there could be a handful of almost invisible marks that got it into that grade. And when you throw in toning and individual collector preference...there go your generalizations.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
You're right. Each coin is different. It takes a "savvy eye" to distinguish that.
Beauty is definitely in the "eye" of the beholder.
Pete
I know I paid a Premium for most of my Seated Liberty one and two year type coins in AU58.
And there are guite a few in that group.
<----BTW that is one of them.
A couple of serious Registry folks with deep pockets can make it so. Barber halves have been that way for a while. Especially if it’s a plus coin.
The Registry guys who pay triple for lower grade coins? Someone needs to check and make sure their strings are connected to their kites.
I got out bid on a couple of dimes in that range
I have a lot of what I am calling AU58 coins that probable would grade MS but if I feel it is better served as an AU58 then a mislabeled MS SIXTY PUKE I leave it as is and enjoy it raw.
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No. The early CBH years had strike and design issues. Here's a close-up of that 1808. Note the flatness to the head and beak. It was much fuller just a few years later (bottom photo of MS 1811).
Lance.
I have seen collectors chase AU 58 examples and bid them up over UNC prices before at auction. But I don’t think I have ever seen a dealer price an UNC lower than one outside a liquidation event
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