FUN from the Little Guy’s viewpoint

SurfinxHI · January 6, 2018 6:49PM

Hi all, here’s a FUN report, but told from the perspective of a small, new dealer, or perhaps a “tabled” vest pocket dealer. Undoubtedly there will be blogs and opinions about how great the show was, how much business was done, who’s super secret stealth buyer did what, and how strong the market is....so this might be a smidge different than that. Some caveats first....

1) This was my first FUN show, and arguably my first show with over a hundred dealers present.
2) I was allowed to graciously have one case at a good friends table, thus, when he was talking story, that’s the way it goes!
3) I’m not new to the business per se, but I’m a super small fish in a huge ocean.
4) Our table was in the 1100s row, so not great, but not bad either. A big pole on the other side blocked at least on set up location, so our row appeared “under-populated.”

Ok, I missed Wednesday’s set up time. I heard that between 2 and 6 pm there was a veritable ton of business done. It sounded like surfing reports....hey, you should have been here yesterday. It was head high, glassy, and uncrowned (perfect surfing conditions). I did make it in a 630 pm, but most folks were gone by then.

Thursday morning I was there bright and early. I think I was the second PCGS submitter for the day! Great customer care for a newbie submitting at a show. Got all set up and started selling....or waiting, whichever is more appropriate. First sale wasn’t until after the public came in at 10 am. And that turned out to be my biggest single sale of the entire show at $600. He purchased a bunch of common morgans in lower grades (63/64), which was great for me to move the material. He was happy too!

By 2 pm, I got the I’ll-just-check-my-grades itis, and I got it bad. It’s just like waiting for a send in result, but instead of checking every day after 20 days, I was checking every 20 minutes! Gawd....that was terrible!

SurfinxHI · January 6, 2018 6:53PM

oh, maybe they got through faster than the 3 days as promised.....heh!

By 5 pm, the show was quiet and sleepy. My host was pretty sad about the overall experience. He was having better luck selling non-numismatic items than coins. And mind you, he has top notch coin materials. My total sales for the day were under 1k,meaning that I made enough profit to pay for coffee, lunch, and parking. Ugh......but hey, what’s that? 538 pm and my grades hit! Woot! 2 pushes, 3 out of the parks! I’ll take it!

Friday was a redux to Thursday, but no more checking grades. It was busy for about 3 hours or so and then it markedly dropped off. I did about half the business than the day before.....no lunch for me! Several times during peak hours, our table had conversations with other dealers....most were saying the same thing. Slow.

Saturday, determined to make tons of money, I moved out on the floor with more emphasis. I found a few deals, converted them, and then sold off some excess inventory for a sligh profit. While I was at the table for over 7 hours, I only completed one sale there. Kinda a bummer. But hey, I at least made enough for lunch today! My host exited at 3 pm. I stayed till 6 pm. I gained nothing in the 3 extra hours, and foot traffic was, well, like being at a mall on Christmas Day. The hall was pretty empty by 3, and I’ll estimate that only 25% of all the dealers will be there tomorrow. That estimate might be high....

Observations:

1) I’m glad I stayed with friends, and flew on a miles ticket. Total profit is less than the cost of a regular ticket.
2) Sharing a table is tough. It’s not yours.....sharing a corner set up I think will be much easier. Then it’s half yours.

SurfinxHI · January 6, 2018 6:57PM

8) continued....65s are going for 90-100, and 66s $175-185.
9) CAC gold appears to be in 3-5% of most inventories. Or 80-100%. It’s either/or.
10) I had several more on the list, but they keep getting cut off. I’m tired of trying to recover it.
11) I met and maintained several great relationships. Good stuff that.

Will I do it again? Yes, but I’ll do it differently, sharing a corner, rather than a table.

Flatwoods · January 6, 2018 7:20PM

Sounds like a great experience.
I don't think that I would enjoy being a dealer but I do enjoy a good show every now and then.

SurfinxHI · January 6, 2018 7:28PM

3) The 300-1000 rows seemed really good....ends dont seem as good. Sweet spots are the 2 rows on either sides of the doors, all the way down.
4) Lots of negative comments about Tampa....bad parking, bathrooms, show attendance, etc.
5) Last year at winter FUN there were 119 YNs, from what I heard. This year I hear there were 9. We donated to the YN program and I poked my head in there, and yes, it was a ghost town.
6) I’ve met several young vest pocket dealers that have their primary platform on Instagram or EBay. I’m not certain who they are buying from, cuz the ask prices the quote me are absurdly low. After being part of those communities for about 6 month now, I’m really not certain how they make money. It’s cherrypicking to the nth degree. Good luck out there!
7) The most often requested coins were seated materials, silver eagles, then maybe cents or bust halves. Obviously, if the see that you have dollars, then they won’t request that....heh!
8) The market for Morgans and Peace dollars appears to be in the toilet

SurfinxHI · January 6, 2018 7:29PM

The site is messed up.....it keeps deleting stuff.

BillDugan1959 · January 6, 2018 7:36PM

Your report/effort is appreciated and it is nice to see what a smaller seller participant might expect. We don't get that perspective too often.

Justacommeman · January 6, 2018 8:12PM

Great report and I'm glad you are going back for more

m

blitzdude · January 6, 2018 8:13PM

Weird, I read your report earlier and it was all there in order, then the middle of your report was gone.

Do appreciate your report as well. Good to see all perspectives.

vplite · January 6, 2018 8:24PM

Thanks for the report. Sobering, but very worthwhile.

SeatedToners · January 6, 2018 8:40PM

thank you for posting such a thorough report. that was a nice read

BLUEJAYWAY · January 6, 2018 9:42PM

I too enjoyed the report from the perspective of "the little guy".

Coinstartled · January 6, 2018 9:43PM

Very informative report, Surf. Did you have ample inventory to make the show profitable? Were unacceptable offers from collectors being rejected or was traffic just too slow to turn your inventory?

bestday · January 6, 2018 9:53PM

nice report ..thanks ..

leothelyon · January 6, 2018 9:58PM

My first and second show setups, you end up with the very last table in the worst section of the room. It doesn't take long to realize the first 99% of customers in the door rarely get past the first few tables before buying something than only to leave. Watching how many make that third turn into that 2nd isle because the second turn occurs inside the first isle and their heading back towards the door and most continue out the door. Unless someone is searching for a particular coin in a certain grade for a specific series, they might get to your table. And if you don't carry that series in your case, that collector will likely never return to your table again and for good reason.

hchcoin · January 6, 2018 10:30PM

Thanks for the report. Sounds like the old adage is true, "Location, Location, Location".

Boosibri · January 7, 2018 1:49AM

I'd like to set up at a show one day. I applaud you for jumping right in at FUN. Go big or go home.

alohagary · January 7, 2018 2:07AM

Enjoyed your truthful report,

jmlanzaf · January 7, 2018 4:12AM

Thanks!

GotTheBug · January 7, 2018 5:20AM

thebeav · January 7, 2018 5:36AM

Nice report.
Hope your 'home runs' on your submissions were profitable !

Batman23 · January 7, 2018 5:48AM

Great report! I like the new perspective.

SurfinxHI · January 7, 2018 6:41AM

Here’s a few more thoughts that got deleted in the posting process,.

13) Expect to buy at bid, yet expect to sell to another dealer at 20% behind bid. Frustrating. Very few moving the same direction.
14) I saw a lot of great coins....seated material, proof Seated, Morgan, and Trade dollars, high end gold, and omg, proof gold. Wowzer. Humbling. Seriously humbling.
15) Color. I had a rack of color with me. I saw a lot of color. Most of it was priced into the mid 4 figures to low 5 figures for excellent examples. Stuff that was lesser quality was high 3 figures to low 4 figures. I don’t get it. Mine was priced way under those levels, still didn’t move, but got lots of compliments. Many were like “ my buyer can’t afford that,” I.e., “my buyer can’t afford the mark up I’m going to put on your piece and try to sell to him”. I wish those buyers were there!

To answer a question, yes, I had enough material for my case, in fact, I had well over the needed amount. I prepped the case in three different areas, 2.5/5 gold, morgans (loose and slabbed), and Peace. A few odds and ends (dimes, a few walkers) rounded it out. Most slabbed dollars were 65 and up.

Thanks for all the great comments! I was looking out for forum members, but you all are sneaky!

Surf

Mark · January 7, 2018 6:52AM

@SurfinxHI Your report was a fun read. But talk about sneaky--you broke your report into 4 parts so you got 4 "likes" from me and others. OK, OK--blame the software. Nonetheless, I think _THAT'S_sneaky! !!!!

More seriously, thanks again. You deserved 4 likes for dealing with buggy software. Plus it's reports like yours that help make this chat board so enjoyable.

kaz · January 7, 2018 7:07AM

Thanks for posting the detailed report about your experiences. I've learned a lot.

fcloud · January 7, 2018 7:35AM

Great info. Thanks for taking the time to post it.

MaineJim · January 7, 2018 7:49AM

Thanks - enjoyed the read. Good to see your perspective. Felt like I was there.

291fifth · January 7, 2018 8:14AM

An excellent, hype-free report!

ricko · January 7, 2018 8:31AM

Thank you for your very complete report. I enjoyed the perspective. Congratulations on your grades. Cheers, RickO

logger7 · January 7, 2018 8:40AM

Thanks for the rigorous report. Just curious what coins you got graded there? The market in the internet age has changed, do you get interest at a show you don't get online? Nothing like being able to peruse a coin in person, but it doesn't necessarily lead to an offer or a sale.

ECHOES · January 7, 2018 8:56AM

Thanks for the report!

ms70 · January 7, 2018 9:14AM

A refreshing point of view!

sniocsu · January 7, 2018 12:38PM

Thanks for the report

jwitten · January 7, 2018 12:56PM

Nice report, thanks! I have been an "ebay dealer" for years now, but have only been to one show... ANA in Chicago to buy the gold kennedy. I would love to go to these, but to me, I would need to make it worth the cost. The cost of travel, hotel, parking, etc. I live in a part of the country where I would have to travel to go to a big show, and I just don't think it makes sense for me to go to these, unfortunately.

logger7 · January 7, 2018 1:02PM

I went in the 2000s when it was in Orlando across from the Disney building that was upside down. Good location there.

oih82w8 · January 7, 2018 1:04PM

Great, detailed report. Thank you for sharing your experience.

bigjpst · January 7, 2018 1:10PM

Great report. I have had very similar experiences being little guy dealer at shows. I very rarely make my costs at a show. The only thing that has helped was the ability to buy from a table. Most shows for me have not been worthwhile so I have greatly reduced the amount I attend. I do still miss doing all the shows though. I had a great dealer/friend to share with at the large shows and that does make a huge difference. I hope to one day get back to it, but for now I’ve been back to my pre show business model.

SurfinxHI · January 7, 2018 2:12PM

@logger7 said:
Thanks for the rigorous report. Just curious what coins you got graded there? The market in the internet age has changed, do you get interest at a show you don't get online? Nothing like being able to peruse a coin in person, but it doesn't necessarily lead to an offer or a sale.

2 gold 2.5 dollars, 3 Morgans. You can guess the coins based on the grades...heh! 62, 63, 65, 65, 66+.

Show interest is so much better than on line interest, at least via Instagram. Everything there seems to be on the low end of pricing, or low grade, or typically both. Or it's moon money. I prefer seeing in hand; though actually, our BST is also a nice venue too!

Bochiman · January 7, 2018 3:20PM

@SurfinxHI said:
15) Color. I had a rack of color with me. I saw a lot of color. Most of it was priced into the mid 4 figures to low 5 figures for excellent examples. Stuff that was lesser quality was high 3 figures to low 4 figures. I don’t get it. Mine was priced way under those levels, still didn’t move, but got lots of compliments. Many were like “ my buyer can’t afford that,” I.e.,[b] “my buyer can’t afford the mark up I’m going to put on your piece and try to sell to him”.[/b] I wish those buyers were there!
Surf

Here's the part (I bolded it) that burns my butt......

IF, as a seller/dealer, you have a confirmed buyer, then WHY do you need to keep your original mark-up, which is usually figured in as holding material for a certain amount of time and finding a buyer?

For instance:
See nice toned morgan in ms64. Know there is interest, but no specific buyer. May have to hold anywhere from 1-180 days (pick a number, it doesn't matter). Price with 20% margin to cover costs and holding time.
That's fine. Understandable. Maybe it sells in 1 day and you give a 5% discount to a repeat customer (or maybe you don't). You score. Maybe it takes 180 days.

Or:
Same morgan, but you have a customer looking for that date/mm/look (you've worked with him before) and you are 95%+ certain he will buy it if priced right....you know his price range as you have worked with him.
Buy it, add 5%, he buys it immediately.

That's MY way of thinking. But, it sounds like the dealer(s) in question are still looking to put their "normal" markup on it, hence their customers don't even get a chance at the coins that those same dealers think the customers would want.

No "may I take a picture and send to my client?".
No nothing.

Sad

Hope the shows finishes strong for you

PhilLynott · January 7, 2018 5:51PM

I am pumped when I reach on error

Coinstartled · January 7, 2018 6:09PM

@Bochiman said:

@SurfinxHI said:
15) Color. I had a rack of color with me. I saw a lot of color. Most of it was priced into the mid 4 figures to low 5 figures for excellent examples. Stuff that was lesser quality was high 3 figures to low 4 figures. I don’t get it. Mine was priced way under those levels, still didn’t move, but got lots of compliments. Many were like “ my buyer can’t afford that,” I.e.,[b] “my buyer can’t afford the mark up I’m going to put on your piece and try to sell to him”.[/b] I wish those buyers were there!
Surf

Here's the part (I bolded it) that burns my butt......

IF, as a seller/dealer, you have a confirmed buyer, then WHY do you need to keep your original mark-up, which is usually figured in as holding material for a certain amount of time and finding a buyer?

For instance:
See nice toned morgan in ms64. Know there is interest, but no specific buyer. May have to hold anywhere from 1-180 days (pick a number, it doesn't matter). Price with 20% margin to cover costs and holding time.
That's fine. Understandable. Maybe it sells in 1 day and you give a 5% discount to a repeat customer (or maybe you don't). You score. Maybe it takes 180 days.

Or:
Same morgan, but you have a customer looking for that date/mm/look (you've worked with him before) and you are 95%+ certain he will buy it if priced right....you know his price range as you have worked with him.
Buy it, add 5%, he buys it immediately.

That's MY way of thinking. But, it sounds like the dealer(s) in question are still looking to put their "normal" markup on it, hence their customers don't even get a chance at the coins that those same dealers think the customers would want.

No "may I take a picture and send to my client?".
No nothing.

Sad

Hope the shows finishes strong for you

Can a dealer survive on 5% on anything besides bullion and lot viewing for a bidder.

Show attendance is not cheap.

jmlanzaf · January 7, 2018 6:20PM

@Coinstartled said:

@Bochiman said:

@SurfinxHI said:

Can a dealer survive on 5% on anything besides bullion and lot viewing for a bidder.

Show attendance is not cheap.

Everyone thinks that 1% is a profit. That is part of the problem with the way people value their "investment" coins. If you buy gold for $1000 and hold it for 10 years and sell for $1100, you LOST money. There's a time value to money. And if you are running a business, there's not just time value, there's fixed costs (rent, utilities, advertising, payroll, theft, table fees, etc.)

savitale · January 7, 2018 8:08PM

Thanks for the report!

logger7 · January 7, 2018 9:03PM

Glad you got some great results on the $2 1/2 Indian coins and Morgans, which shows how conservative you are in grading. It is tough to make money in the numismatic business, why I tread it more as a hobby.

Coin Finder · January 7, 2018 10:38PM

Truthteller (RIP) would be proud!! Nice report and thanks!!

mannie gray · January 8, 2018 1:34AM

@Boosibri said:
I'd like to set up at a show one day. I applaud you for jumping right in at FUN. Go big or go home.

You should give it a shot.
It's a blast.

1630Boston · January 8, 2018 3:42AM

Thanks for the informative report from your perspective

Kkathyl · January 8, 2018 5:11AM

From my perspective when I was able to go to the show on Saturday I seen many of the big guys packed up and left already. You had prime table locations with names like Heritage on it and an empty table. It makes you assume anything worth looking at is gone, or average Joe collector does not matter. Perhaps the Show coordinators should reconsider that strategy. Big guys taking prime locations then not caring is poor for the other dealers.

jonruns · January 8, 2018 6:05AM

Your selling experience will make you a better buyer!!!

BillDugan1959 · January 8, 2018 6:35AM

@Kkathyl said:
From my perspective when I was able to go to the show on Saturday I seen many of the big guys packed up and left already. You had prime table locations with names like Heritage on it and an empty table. It makes you assume anything worth looking at is gone, or average Joe collector does not matter. Perhaps the Show coordinators should reconsider that strategy. Big guys taking prime locations then not caring is poor for the other dealers.

For better or worse, the big firms and the show circuit regulars pay the freight.

Clubs/show organizers often gotta beg the big money folks and certain top-notch specialists to put their show on the schedules of the big money and the specialists. The show circuit has a regular pattern (and conflicting dates too) and if your show doesn't fit the schedule of the top outfits, it's really hard to get them to your show. This was even more true a few years back, when there were more shows than now. Clubs/show organizers have limited leverage with many of the dealers, and that's the reality of it. Yes, the F.U.N. winter show is special, but the F.U.N. organization must sweat every year over the money part, I'll wager.

I am just grateful that small fry like me are still reasonably welcome. I am really happy to be asked for a fiver or even a ten spot for admission - these shows are expensive propositions and when I am able to attend, I am certainly willing to contribute to help keep them going.

Coin Finder · January 8, 2018 8:44AM

Truthteller (RIP) would be proud!! Nice report and thanks!!

FUN from the Little Guy’s viewpoint

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