SS Central America Treasure ~ Part 2
1TwoBits
Posts: 464 ✭✭✭✭
I was happy to see the recent article in Coin World (maybe someone can link it) about the additional SS Central America treasure that was recovered in 2014 finally getting close to coming to market. There is a November 30th hearing in Columbus OH to consider a motion to approve the sale of $30 million in salvaged numismatic material to California Gold Marketing Group (CGMG) in order to begin satisfying the claims of creditors and investors.
When the additional recoveries were being made, lists were being posted here on the forum of what was being brought up. The lists were very interesting and contained a wide variety of coins and artifacts. Since that time, I really haven’t seen much of anything about the additional recoveries. When the lists were being posted on the forum, I was struck by all of the silver coins that were now being recovered. I always thought it would be nice to be able to buy a SS Central America recovered silver coin from a series I collect. The number of silver coins mentioned in the article was quite staggering at 10,705 U.S. silver coins of all denominations. Copper coins were also interesting: 10 U.S. copper cents and three undetermined copper coins (I wonder what they look like).
Here is the list of recovered items mentioned in the article. Once the court awards the treasure to CGMG, they can start proceeding with curating and readying the material for sale:
➤ 45 gold ingots. The ingots include three ingots from California gold assayer Harris, Marchand & Co. from Sacramento and Marysville; five from Hy [Henry] Hentsch from San Francisco; seven from assayer Justh & Hunter in San Francisco and Marysville; and 30 from Kellogg & Humbert in San Francisco. The ingot with the highest appraised value is $1 million for a Hy Hentsch bar weighing 319.22 ounces, composed of .892 fine gold and stamped with a face value of $5,886.19.
➤ 1,600 ounces of gold dust and mineral form gold (nuggets).
➤ 1,956 San Francisco Mint gold coins, dollars to $20 double eagles.
➤ 710 Philadelphia Mint gold coins, dollars to double eagles.
➤ 31 Dahlonega Mint gold coins, $2.50 quarter eagles and $5 half eagles.
➤ 23 Charlotte Mint gold coins, dollars to half eagles.
➤ 92 New Orleans Mint gold coins, dollars to double eagles.
➤ 104 pioneer gold coins denominated above $1.
➤ 112 pioneer gold coins, $1 and less.
➤ 22 undetermined U.S. gold coins, dollar to double eagles.
➤ 81 foreign gold coins of various countries and denominations.
➤ 10,705 U.S. silver coins of all denominations.
➤ 1,690 foreign and undetermined silver coins of various denominations.
➤ 10 U.S. copper cents and three undetermined copper coins.
I can’t remember if the lists posted on the forum in 2014 had dates listed, but the listing above from the Coin World article seems like a bit of a tease when they list the quantity of coins for a branch mint along with the quantity and denomination, but list no dates. Dwight Manley stated in the article that there are many high grade finest known examples of certain dates and mint marks in the current treasure that were not known during the first recovery.
Unfortunately it may take a while to get to the silver coins. The article says that Manley plans to have Bob Evans curate all of the gold coins before making any sales promotions. They will not concentrate on the silver coins until all the gold coins are curated, certified, and the results published.
This should be interesting next year when we start getting some more details.
1TwoBits
Comments
Thanks for the info! That's quite a haul.
Sank in 1857, which provides an upper bound on the dates.
The pioneer gold might be cool.
No 1870-s half dimes, though. :-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Central_America
Yes, but let's see about 1854-S quarter eagles and half eagles...
Maybe this time I will spring for a $20.
The undetermined coins have me curious, tho they might just be cemented together in a blob of undersea concrete and are thusly yet unidentifiable.
I remember going through the lists as they were recovered. They did list the dates. Unfortunately, unless more was recovered after there were no 1854-S coins listed.
You have to wonder how they recovered 1600 ozs. of gold dust. I doubt that it was neatly packed in Mason jars !
They probably hired the gold mining crews from those Discovery Channel shows.
Values should be dropping, should they not?
Finding sunken treasure is always exciting.... especially for the treasure hunters. For me, it would be more meaningful if some truly rare coins were among the recovered material. The fact that is was lost over 150 years ago is interesting, but there are coins that have been dug up by metal detectors that have been lost that long. To me, the story does not add value and certainly not to the extent of the premiums that will be attached to these coins. Cheers, RickO
It all depends upon what the seawater has done to the coins. If most of them have matte surfaces from the seawater, they shouldn't have much of an effect upon the value of the "no problem” pieces that are already in collections and on the market.
If there are a lot of middle of pile coins, like the many 1857-S double eagles that were recovered, it could go either way. More coins could lower prices, but it could also stimulate demand if it draws in more collectors to those markets.
At any rate the ingots have never been great sellers from what I’ve seen. The large ones have been too expensive for most collectors based on their melt value alone. Some them have been melted and turned into $50 gold piece novodels.
There is definitely an allure for most surrounding any shipwreck, let alone one as famous as the SS Central America. Just imagining these treasures going down with the ship in a violent storm stimulates the mind.
I'd love to own a piece of this history.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
That's too bad. You'd think with mintages of 246 and 268, respectively, there'd at least be the possibility of one or more still being out there beyond the dozen or so quarter eagles and three half eagles currently known.
With regard to the originally encapsulated gold-foil SS Central America coins, I asked Doug Winter about this a few years ago, after I just had sold my 1857-S $20 PCGS 64/CAC example. He had for sale at the time a matched high-grade 1857-S $2.50/$5/$10 set, if I recall. He said that, as long as the coins were still in their original gold foil holders, their values should hold up as collectors would still value coins brought up in the initial recovery.
That’s a lot of pioneer gold. Might really have an impact to availability and prices.
"He said that, as long as the coins were still in their original gold foil holders, their values should hold up as collectors would still value coins brought up in the initial recovery."
I have to disagree. Why on earth would anyone care if these coins were found on the initial discovery or in subsequent efforts? The whole allure of these coins is that they were pulled from a famous shipwreck. To me, the order from which they were pulled from the sea should never merit a premium. Gold foil label, not withstanding.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Perhaps a helpful analogy would be what added value "First Strike" designations add.
You beat me to it @northcoin, I was thinking the same thing just before I read your post.
A big fat agree with Bill Jones
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I paid up for a silver coin from the first batch. I guess I will be "buried" in that coin...........
I am somewhat surprised to see this much southern gold in the inventory. That these coins made their way from where they were struck (Dahlonega, for example) to San Francisco, before making it on the SSCA, then traveled back around to where the ship sank, amazes me. Considering that some of the gold in these coins was from California in the first place is even more incredible.
It isn't all that surprising since most of the Dahlonega gold miners dropped everything and headed west for the California Rush. They would have carried Dahlonega gold pieces with them.
Overland Trail Collection Showcase
Dahlonega Type Set-2008 PCGS Best Exhibited Set
Perhaps OGH or Doily would be a better comparison. If they aren't making any more gold foils, it can indicate a state of preservation not available with recent holders, e.g. Gen 6.0.
Where will most of it appear for auction?
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Interesting information, thanks !!!
My 9-11 WTC "Recovery" ASE could soon get a few "Recovery" friends from another time.
I was just looking at an 1855-S SSCA Liberty $20 earlier yesterday on GC. That's some pricey stuff.
Attached is the list of dates of the SS Central America coins which was posted to this forum in 2014...
Note that DW mentioned in his recent article on $3s:
"(note: the rarity of the 1855-S, as well as other Threes from this mint, will likely soon change due to coins found on the SS Central America)."
The notes on the attached list say there are at least two "very high grade" 1857-S $3s...and in terms of the condition of the coins...as Bill Jones so eloquently stated it really all depends on what the seawater has done to them...
In the interim I might keep this information in mind when considering any purchases of pre 1857 gold...especially from the S mint...
At 8000 feet the water is so cold that there is little seawater effect as we have seen in the luster on the 1857S double eagles.
When I saw the very first two 1857S coins to be certified (I drove them, on behalf of Christies, to NGC in NJ) my comment was that the luster was so strong on these that they looked like 1904s. Bagmarks on these were consistent with 62 and 64 grades but I predicted that the exceptional luster would result in 63 and 65 grades, which is exactly what NGC graded them. We didn't really know if they would even certify since they had been "conserved", but they appeared completely uncleaned. This was well before the group that bought the coins was in the picture.
I saw about 30-40 other coins from the wreck at this time, the day before Walter Breen visited to inspect them and they were photographed. These were the Federal and private coins that appeared on the cover of the Numismatist when the story was announced. Look at the photo. None show any seawater damage.
The gold from this particular wreck can't be compared to shallow wrecks. Damage occurs much slower with no light, wave action and temps just above freezing.
@sellitstore -- great info!!!
Man, I'd love to own a coin taken from the wreck of the SS Central America. We often imagine what stories a coin could tell. A double eagle that's been a mile and a half under the water for 150 years gets my blood pumping in a big way
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
The Coin World article from December 2017:
https://coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2017/12/judge-approves-sale-of-ss-central-america-treasure.all.html
Apparently the sale of the 2014 gold to California Gold Marketing Group LLC was supposed to close in mid-January.
Agree and this was on my bucket list for awhile. Love it. Love the history ......mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Gorgeous coin, Mark!
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
That is a nice one, Mark. I can't wait to see what the large cents look like though, probably not sharp like that.
I've been wanting to see what the few bust quarters they brought up look like too.
1TwoBits
That's a really nice example. I had a lowly MS64/CAC that I let go a few years back, but am definitely looking forward to seeing what's coming up to auction this year.
They already have been...for months.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Does anyone know if a detailed coin population report is available online for the latest finds?
I haven't seen this with the nice 65 and 66 cac 1857-s examples.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The CAC examples have held up better. The non-CAC examples have dropped about 20% in the last 6 months. I was tracking them because someone was trying to sell one in a 64 holder in July. At the time, they were selling at $10k and she wanted close to that but I didn't want to pay more than $8k. She came around again in January, ready to take $8k, but they were only selling at $8k and didn't like my $7k offer
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.