@Baley said: "I find it amusing that folks keep referring to the "Correct Opinion" of a Grade as if that weren't an oxymoron."
Grading is and will continue to be a big mess as long as profits and coin dealers are involved. Dealers introduced all the variables early on. In my naïve opinion, a coin's VALUE, RARETY, and PROVENANCE should have absolutely no bearing at all on its condition of preservation from the time it was struck. Coin clubs like EAC only pollute any attempt at standardization further.
Grading a coin by strict, old-time (not used anymore) standards by using a photographic grading guide coupled with a few hours of instruction by a competent teacher is easy for an intelligent person with good eyesight and no preconceived notions. I have seen the proof of this statement over and over for decades. That said, grading a coin the way a TPGS, and most here do, only guarantees a mix of results. Look at the fuss over a typical "poster child" MS-63 graded Barber half on another thread for proof of this statement.
IMO there is a correct grade for any coin. I have seen folks above my pay grade do it consistently as far as the design details remaining on a coin. However, once we add the variables, color, problems like scratches, the value we wish to impart, condition rarity, etc. these same professionals need finalizers, and still make errors.
Meanwhile, the young YN student looks at the coin with his grading guide and hits the same correct grade that the expert graders started with. THAT"S WHAT I FIND AMUSING!
100% ABSOLUTELY RAISED THE BAR ON BUYING and SELLING COINS. The price disparity I've seen on similarly graded coins has been between 10-50%. In MY SALE the Saint seller (with similarly graded high-end coins) sitting behind me with non-CAC coins was muttering to himself throughout the entire auction. It gave me the creeps and had me preening inside!! I say THANK YOU TO MY GOOD FRIEND JA.
Let's try not to lose sight of the fact that the coin market has different tiers. And at the high end where there is several thousand dollars at stake between grades, it is essential to be as certain as possible in the belief that the coin is what it needs to be for the grade or has the look that separates it from other coins at that grade. I doubt many can disagree with that.
There are other tiers of the coin market that do not involve thousands of dollars or even spreads between grades of one hundred dollars. And in this tier exists some pretty attractive coins for what they are. As collectors we should be able to see and appreciate the difference between what is mediocre... good or terrific for coins at various states of preservation. Where I am going with this should be clear from my prior comments.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Markets tend to act rationally and when they dont over time they tend to correct themselves. The fact that stickered oins generally bring a premium and its been around for 10 years is the best evidence to support that CAC works
CAC means nothing to experienced collectors and dealers, ands keeps good unstickered (but deserving) coins from being sold to nervous noobs.
CAC for the most part, has created a market for their product that feeds on fear and skepticism and lack of knowledge that can be a challenge to obtain.
To me, the sticker is a distraction, but it does make SOME coins a LOT easier to sell.
I don't even notice or give a crap if a coin has a CAC sticker or not when I buy a coin. I buy the coin for what I see...not what PCGS,NGC or CAC thinks about it! If a coin meets my expectations...I would probably go an extra dollar or two for the sticker.
@specialist said:
that is BS that CAC means nothing to experienced collectors. the more experienced they are the more they appreciate it
fear? what there really are no coin doctors or gradeflation does not exist?
be greatful someone (JA) is sticking his neck out for the consumer. Your coins would be worth much less today if CAC did not exist
CAC has limitations as to series as well as focus. I think that CAC has classic coin dealer predjuducies that are not currently "market acceptable" . In many series they have great credibility, but in some they do not. With respect to Indian Cent coins, they are not on par with Rick Snow and his photograde certification. Perhaps small copper was beneath the dignity of JA?
But the point is that CAC certification is not consistent across all series. While it makes sense for many series, they do not seem to be a universal grade authenticator.
It seems like CAC is becoming more and more supportive of grade-flation rather than combatting it. In the areas where I collect, I have been very disappointed with some of the coins that have rated CAC stickers. When the MS-63 grade prompts a huge increase in price, putting a sticker on an MS-63 graded coin that isn’t even Mint State is just wrong.
I’ve bent to the market pressures that have allowed an AU-58 with good eye appeal to get into an MS-62 holder. I actually agree with the concept that a coin with a tiny rub is worth as much or more than a technical MS-60 or 61 coin that has distracting marks and other eye appeal issues.
Once you reach the MS-63 (Choice Uncirculated) and higher grades, the coin needs to be Mint State. That is especially true when one grading point can double the price. I now see CAC going out on the limb and putting a sticker on such coins.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
It seems like CAC is becoming more and more supportive of grade-flation rather than combatting it.
But then look where the comment is coming from.
People, CAC IS combating gradeflation and helping spank coin doctors. Only an uneducated bottom feeder would say otherwise. Plus, CAC coins wouldd not be selling for such premiums if that was true.
It seems like CAC is becoming more and more supportive of grade-flation rather than combatting it.
But then look where the comment is coming from.
People, CAC IS combating gradeflation and helping spank coin doctors. Only an uneducated bottom feeder would say otherwise. Plus, CAC coins wouldd not be selling for such premiums if that was true.
IMHO, it is simply rude to call someone 'moronic' and/or 'uneducated bottom feeder' here for any reason. Bill Jones has tremendous credibility here and is trying to discuss a serious topic. You may not agree with his opinion, but to resort to name calling because of this is IMHO, unacceptable on these boards. I generally don't pick fights, but your post above should be reported as violating board rules and such behavior IMHO, should not be tolerated.
I've seen more anecdotes of green beaned coins upgrading by a full grade (not a plus) and then getting a green bean again. Is getting green beaned again after an upgrade something that generally should or should not happen?
I think if you are an former dealer turned collector who has seen a million coins that CAC is probably not so relevant...but to a newbie like me CAC is a great asset!!!
Bill has dug his heels in so far there is no coming back for him. He's using the throwing out the baby with the bath water debate. With millions of CAC coins ( or whatever the number) of course you are going to find some pieces to target. Of course it still comes down to preference and objectivity.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
So many times have I done a "lot viewing" and just ended up shaking my head at some of the coins that have made it into holders. Allowing these coins are what is helping destroy values.
I shake my head all the time when I am going through auction house and dealers' stock boxes. "How did that coin get a grade?" I ask myself.
At the same time I can run through those same boxes, and ask, "How did that coin get a CAC sticker?" It runs both ways.
Yuh huh. Except the former is 1000 times more prevalent than the latter. By not acknowledging such, you are a purveyor of disinformation
@ColonelJessup said:
Based on personal conversations with JA, he has been convinced many times by one or another of his other graders to change his mind.
I believe Steve Blum also grades there. Three, not two.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
@Insider2 said: @coinhack I tried to look up your "credentials" with no luck. It appears that you dropped a flag on a member without anything to add to this discussion and only based on what (to me) more qualified posters (?) than yourself already stated. Other than that, I see nothing in this thread from you. I guess you and I get a thrill **posting with the experts.
I have no credentials. I am just an insignificant little collector of coins that the big boys and girls would call dreck. I reply to posts only occasionally when I feel I have something to add. Mostly I come here to see what other people are posting. I see a lot of interesting, new and often educational information and some comments that make me just shake my head.
There are several posters here who I admire for their knowledge and willingness to share it. One of those posters is Bill Jones. I have never met Bill but I do respect his knowledge as a former dealer, collector and numismatist. I read posts from Bill and I often give an "Agree" or "Like". I do that with a lot of other posters here, as well. I have done it with you, @Insider2 and with @specialist too.
I seldom give someone a "Disagree" and have only used the "Flag" button one other time. In this case, I thought @specialist was being over the top with his name calling and accusations. @spacehayduke said, in a following post, that @specialist should be reported and then quoted "Rule 3) Anyone attacking another poster or making disparaging personal remarks will no longer be allowed to post. No more warnings."
I would not have flagged @specialist's post had it been the first time but he has attacked @BillJones in several other threads and since no one else was going to flag it, I did. I know the moderators are not going to do anything to @specialist because they have allowed much more egregious attacks he has made against Bill to slide before but I thought that perhaps specialist might see the flag and ease up a little.
Well said and I appreciate your reply - takes guts. No one here is required to answer a direct question and as you can see MANY DON'T defend their posts.
BTW, I also collect dreck.
Now, I've posted what ticked-me-off. I think Mr. Bill can hold his own so I have a question. This discussion is between the "Big Boys." If this influenced you so much: @spacehayduke said, that @specialist should be reported and then quoted "Rule 3)... Where do you come in?** I guess anyone can play "moderator" and police the place as I'm doing (LOL ) but what if Space asked you to jump off a bridge for him?
I see the New Year is going to look a lot like last year on this subject
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Coin grading is just like everything else, like taxes. It's influenced by who can make money on it. Heck even different standards are used within the same series, take early copper. Then you have "carve outs" like the 1922 plain - pick any of the dies. It's not even graded the same as a 22-d.
This is a great discussion with the exception of the name calling by the Specialist as I noted earlier. I don't know what he/she thinks they are adding by doing so, and the bragging - if you truly have contributed so much to numismatics, then why do you have to brag about it? We have never heard Roger brag and my gosh he has amazing contributions.
That said, my take on what Bill is trying to say is that CAC is controlling the market value of our coins, yet their decisions on beaning can be inconsistent and some not so great coins have gotten through their system with beans on them. I agree with that. It is always possible to miss something, and grading/beaning is simply a subjective exercise. So Caveat Emptor.
Also, having a monopoly is never a good thing in most cases, which is the outcome of having CAC since we all have bought into it. I believe that part of the reason there are less and less serious collectors is that many noobs are simply turned off by the complexity of what one has to do these days to get value set on your coins. I think that is why many of these potential noobs have turned towards collecting in non-CAC areas, like collectible bullion coins which is thriving, or just moved on. So has CAC been good for the hobby? I am not so sure even though I myself have bought into it.
The positives for the collector as I have said many times, is that for at least bust and seated series (and pre-civil war southern mint gold) where I focus my collecting, CAC seems to be very concerned about the quality of the surfaces of the coins and if they have been messed with. I have learned alot about this important aspect by submitting 100s of coins to them. I don't always agree with their decisions, I have around 20% of my coins that are not CAC that I have no issues with and are as high a quality as the CAC stikered coins. I also don't agree with the CAC approach of beaning outright fugly coins because I believe eye appeal is a key aspect of putting a grade on a coin. But they can do what they want, grading is subjective, it is their company after all, not mine.
Keep it civil Specialist (no name calling drama) and let's have a productive discussion on this topic.
@Elcontador said:
CAC is symptomatic of a mature numismatic market. Everything dated 1930 and earlier has been graded at least two, possibly three times. Why? Because of changing grading standards over time.
A CAC sticker means that John Albanese, an all around knowledgeable and respected man in the industry, is willing to buy a particular coin when it crosses his desk at CAC. Nothing more, nothing less.
Mr. Albanese is in the business of wholesaling coins, primarily Morgans and various gold coins, he does not make money stickering them. The sticker tells any particular buyer that he would purchase said coin in said holder when the specific coin crossed his desk.
The sticker is used by most in the industry in the business as a marketing tool. How much of a premium is the sticker worth? As much as you can get for it from a buyer.
Is this good for the hobby? If you have first shot at attractive coins, it's very good for you. You can get these coins, market them as superior for the grade and see how much of a premium a retail customer will pay for them. If you've bought some nice coins, and held them for ten or twenty years, maybe not.
Why? Because if your coin is nice for the grade, sticker or no sticker, it is probably a good idea to resubmit the coin for regrading. If the coin is stickered, and upgrades, you have to resubmit the coin to CAC again to see if you get a sticker at the higher grade. If the coin gets a plus, you have to send it back to CAC to get it stickered again, as CAC does not recognize the plus designation. As a collector, I prefer to buy the right coin in the right holder at the right price and be done with it. To me, all of this is a nuisance and greatly detracts from the joy I get from the hobby. If I want to make money, it doesn't come from my purchases and sales of coins.
So solid for the grade today doesn't mean it will be solid for the grade in 10 years hence; esp if today's 64 becomes tomorrow's 65. I wonder how many collectors' standards will be exactly the same 10 years from now as they are today.
@spacehayduke said:
This is a great discussion with the exception of the name calling by the Specialist as I noted earlier. I don't know what he/she thinks they are adding by doing so, and the bragging - if you truly have contributed so much to numismatics, then why do you have to brag about it? We have never heard Roger brag and my gosh he has amazing contributions.
That said, my take on what Bill is trying to say is that CAC is controlling the market value of our coins, yet their decisions on beaning can be inconsistent and some not so great coins have gotten through their system with beans on them. I agree with that. It is always possible to miss something, and grading/beaning is simply a subjective exercise. So Caveat Emptor.
Also, having a monopoly is never a good thing in most cases, which is the outcome of having CAC since we all have bought into it. I believe that part of the reason there are less and less serious collectors is that many noobs are simply turned off by the complexity of what one has to do these days to get value set on your coins. I think that is why many of these potential noobs have turned towards collecting in non-CAC areas, like collectible bullion coins which is thriving, or just moved on. So has CAC been good for the hobby? I am not so sure even though I myself have bought into it.
The positives for the collector as I have said many times, is that for at least bust and seated series (and pre-civil war southern mint gold) where I focus my collecting, CAC seems to be very concerned about the quality of the surfaces of the coins and if they have been messed with. I have learned alot about this important aspect by submitting 100s of coins to them. I don't always agree with their decisions, I have around 20% of my coins that are not CAC that I have no issues with and are as high a quality as the CAC stikered coins. I also don't agree with the CAC approach of beaning outright fugly coins because I believe eye appeal is a key aspect of putting a grade on a coin. But they can do what they want, grading is subjective, it is their company after all, not mine.
Keep it civil Specialist (no name calling drama) and let's have a productive discussion on this topic.
Best, SH
Hi SH---two points about your comment. I disagree that "noobs are simply turned off by the complexity....". Before CAC and before PCGS, the coins being sold to novices were doctored, overgraded, etc. The complexity back then was far greater than today. The other point is you point out that CAC has been helpful in your series of bust and seated coins. In gold, I can tell you they have been of immense help. I much prefer the world with CAC then the world without it.
Hi SH---two points about your comment. I disagree that "noobs are simply turned off by the complexity....". Before CAC and before PCGS, the coins being sold to novices were doctored, overgraded, etc. The complexity back then was far greater than today. The other point is you point out that CAC has been helpful in your series of bust and seated coins. In gold, I can tell you they have been of immense help. I much prefer the world with CAC then the world without it.
I don't disagree with anything you say, good points. As I noted in my post, CAC focuses on surface quality and identifying messed with coins that they then reject. For that reason, 83% of my gold collection is CAC, they are fantastic at beaning the least messed with ones - a few of my gold coins that did not pass CAC, I disagree with their non-beaning, a few they did not pass, well I knew going in they would not because they were too messed with. But I learned the same issues on how to identify unmessed with gold from Doug Winter's blogs about the subject before CAC started (and anyone can still do so now), and studying the coins he lists for sale, did not need CAC stickers to tell me what to buy, the coins with stickers are still the same coins without the stickers on them. HST, having a CAC sticker on a gold piece is a must for most online old gold buying and that is a positive. So my view is we could not do without Doug Winter for collecting early gold, and numismatics would be much worse without him, CAC or no CAC. Same goes for many folks that focus on early silver.
One question I have is why is the bullion certified coin market doing so well right now? I see hoards of younger people lining up at tables like Modern Coin Mart and APMEX at big coin shows to get NGC or PCGS graded bullion coins while the rest of the bourse has a sparse showing of young customers. Pretty, not complex - MS69 or MS70 etc., no added stickers to establish value. So I am just not convinced that the complexities - slab and TPG grading, gradeflation, CAC stickers (or not), many (or most) of the old US coins have been messed with - on the US coin market, all of which affects the value of the coins you are purchasing and it is easy to lose big if you don't know what you are doing, is attractive to noobs when they can buy a slabbed MS70 bullion coin with much of the value of the coin tied to the metal value, and pretty to boot, no other of these grading issues to deal with to establish value. And if so, then CAC is part of that complexity that is driving noobs to other collecting areas or opting out completely. Something to think about is all I am saying here. On the other hand, ifyou can make it past the noob stage and overcome the daunting and intimidating task of learning coin quality and value, then you can see that CAC is mostly positive for old US coin numistmatics. But it is the noobs I wonder about for the reasons stated.
I could live with a no CAC world now that I have the knowledge I have picked up over the years on surfaces. That goes for any collector that has learned to interpret surfaces or can get advice from knowledgeable folks like Bill Jones, Tom Bush, and many others here. But it is what it is, CAC provides a service that is mostly good for eliminating coins that have had too much messing done to them. By now, most of the lesser messed with coins in the series I collect have been seen by CAC, so mostly you can make a reasonable decision on a coin on whether the green bean is there, or not.
Now HST, I think the Eagle Eye Photoseal sticker is a must for FE and IC's. Here is the expert in the field making a call on the quality of a coin compared to the grade on the slab and this is different than trying to make a call on every coin in every series in US coins where I can't even imagine that 50 years of looking at coins can give you the expertise to precisely evaluate every single coin of every series as well as EE has done for one series. If I were still collecting these, I would not buy without the PS sticker.
IMHO and pardon my novice observation:
Until the next one decides to "sticker" CAC for yet another additional cost; it's another layer of "middle man" before the coins reside in long term vaults.
I love my CACs for the double/triple assurance; but PCGS verification along with yours alone should be enough.
Oh with the members help of course....
*Paid 20% over spot for the history behind it. You decide whether it is better than any non CAC MS62 in the market..
Well, as a previous CRITIC of CAC what I'm doing now is giving preference TO CAC stickered coins purely and simply as a considered "tactical matter."
I still think that harm is being done to a lot of coin sellers but that's immaterial and not pertinent to my NEW "strategy." ???
I've sent in a few and ...maybe... will do more. Gotta wait and see first.
BUT.... with this market, there are enough vendors who want sales and sell the CAC coins at a commensurate price with NON stickered coins.
THEM is de ones I'ze buyin.'
Sort of why I only have slabs now.
It can convince people of integrity and reliability whether or not it's justified.
Like slabs, what's it matter if it's a new grading service or not?
Soooo..... why not stack the deck?
I just ordered a coin today that is stickered and nice. Competitively priced at market for the date and type. So..... no extra charge, but a possible easier sale down the line.
IF I choose to sell.
When I bought all my Saints there was no CAC. Every one except one stickered. My eyes were "CAC". Hopefully many of you could have the same luck although almost everything that would deserve a sticker already has one. I'm not an expert on doctored coins but I suppose my filters were just lucky.
Comments
@Baley said: "I find it amusing that folks keep referring to the "Correct Opinion" of a Grade as if that weren't an oxymoron."
Grading is and will continue to be a big mess as long as profits and coin dealers are involved. Dealers introduced all the variables early on. In my naïve opinion, a coin's VALUE, RARETY, and PROVENANCE should have absolutely no bearing at all on its condition of preservation from the time it was struck. Coin clubs like EAC only pollute any attempt at standardization further.
Grading a coin by strict, old-time (not used anymore) standards by using a photographic grading guide coupled with a few hours of instruction by a competent teacher is easy for an intelligent person with good eyesight and no preconceived notions. I have seen the proof of this statement over and over for decades. That said, grading a coin the way a TPGS, and most here do, only guarantees a mix of results. Look at the fuss over a typical "poster child" MS-63 graded Barber half on another thread for proof of this statement.
IMO there is a correct grade for any coin. I have seen folks above my pay grade do it consistently as far as the design details remaining on a coin. However, once we add the variables, color, problems like scratches, the value we wish to impart, condition rarity, etc. these same professionals need finalizers, and still make errors.
Meanwhile, the young YN student looks at the coin with his grading guide and hits the same correct grade that the expert graders started with. THAT"S WHAT I FIND AMUSING!
I guess no coffee mug for me this year
Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com
CN eBay
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
100% ABSOLUTELY RAISED THE BAR ON BUYING and SELLING COINS. The price disparity I've seen on similarly graded coins has been between 10-50%. In MY SALE the Saint seller (with similarly graded high-end coins) sitting behind me with non-CAC coins was muttering to himself throughout the entire auction. It gave me the creeps and had me preening inside!! I say THANK YOU TO MY GOOD FRIEND JA.
Let's try not to lose sight of the fact that the coin market has different tiers. And at the high end where there is several thousand dollars at stake between grades, it is essential to be as certain as possible in the belief that the coin is what it needs to be for the grade or has the look that separates it from other coins at that grade. I doubt many can disagree with that.
There are other tiers of the coin market that do not involve thousands of dollars or even spreads between grades of one hundred dollars. And in this tier exists some pretty attractive coins for what they are. As collectors we should be able to see and appreciate the difference between what is mediocre... good or terrific for coins at various states of preservation. Where I am going with this should be clear from my prior comments.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Markets tend to act rationally and when they dont over time they tend to correct themselves. The fact that stickered oins generally bring a premium and its been around for 10 years is the best evidence to support that CAC works
CAC keeps noobs in the game. We need more noobs.
CAC means nothing to experienced collectors and dealers, ands keeps good unstickered (but deserving) coins from being sold to nervous noobs.
CAC for the most part, has created a market for their product that feeds on fear and skepticism and lack of knowledge that can be a challenge to obtain.
To me, the sticker is a distraction, but it does make SOME coins a LOT easier to sell.
Any questions?
Empty Nest Collection
that is BS that CAC means nothing to experienced collectors. the more experienced they are the more they appreciate it
fear? what there really are no coin doctors or gradeflation does not exist?
be greatful someone (JA) is sticking his neck out for the consumer. Your coins would be worth much less today if CAC did not exist
I don't even notice or give a crap if a coin has a CAC sticker or not when I buy a coin. I buy the coin for what I see...not what PCGS,NGC or CAC thinks about it! If a coin meets my expectations...I would probably go an extra dollar or two for the sticker.
CAC has limitations as to series as well as focus. I think that CAC has classic coin dealer predjuducies that are not currently "market acceptable" . In many series they have great credibility, but in some they do not. With respect to Indian Cent coins, they are not on par with Rick Snow and his photograde certification. Perhaps small copper was beneath the dignity of JA?
But the point is that CAC certification is not consistent across all series. While it makes sense for many series, they do not seem to be a universal grade authenticator.
OINK
It seems like CAC is becoming more and more supportive of grade-flation rather than combatting it. In the areas where I collect, I have been very disappointed with some of the coins that have rated CAC stickers. When the MS-63 grade prompts a huge increase in price, putting a sticker on an MS-63 graded coin that isn’t even Mint State is just wrong.
I’ve bent to the market pressures that have allowed an AU-58 with good eye appeal to get into an MS-62 holder. I actually agree with the concept that a coin with a tiny rub is worth as much or more than a technical MS-60 or 61 coin that has distracting marks and other eye appeal issues.
Once you reach the MS-63 (Choice Uncirculated) and higher grades, the coin needs to be Mint State. That is especially true when one grading point can double the price. I now see CAC going out on the limb and putting a sticker on such coins.
This would not be a CAC post without > @specialist sword swallowing.
JA is the "finalizer", no?
Correct
Most moronic statement there can be:
It seems like CAC is becoming more and more supportive of grade-flation rather than combatting it.
But then look where the comment is coming from.
People, CAC IS combating gradeflation and helping spank coin doctors. Only an uneducated bottom feeder would say otherwise. Plus, CAC coins wouldd not be selling for such premiums if that was true.
IMHO, it is simply rude to call someone 'moronic' and/or 'uneducated bottom feeder' here for any reason. Bill Jones has tremendous credibility here and is trying to discuss a serious topic. You may not agree with his opinion, but to resort to name calling because of this is IMHO, unacceptable on these boards. I generally don't pick fights, but your post above should be reported as violating board rules and such behavior IMHO, should not be tolerated.
Best, SH
"Rule 3) Anyone attacking another poster or making disparaging personal remarks will no longer be allowed to post. No more warnings."
I've seen more anecdotes of green beaned coins upgrading by a full grade (not a plus) and then getting a green bean again. Is getting green beaned again after an upgrade something that generally should or should not happen?
I think if you are an former dealer turned collector who has seen a million coins that CAC is probably not so relevant...but to a newbie like me CAC is a great asset!!!
Bill has dug his heels in so far there is no coming back for him. He's using the throwing out the baby with the bath water debate. With millions of CAC coins ( or whatever the number) of course you are going to find some pieces to target. Of course it still comes down to preference and objectivity.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
My read of Bill's basic message is not to blindly trust the sticker, kind of like:
Buy the coin, not the sticker.
We already say:
Buy the coin, not the holder.
So it's not to far to replace holder with sticker.
Yes, holders dominate the hobby and now stickers do too, but collectors should still be vigilant with both.
Yuh huh. Except the former is 1000 times more prevalent than the latter. By not acknowledging such, you are a purveyor of disinformation
I believe Steve Blum also grades there. Three, not two.
I have no credentials. I am just an insignificant little collector of coins that the big boys and girls would call dreck. I reply to posts only occasionally when I feel I have something to add. Mostly I come here to see what other people are posting. I see a lot of interesting, new and often educational information and some comments that make me just shake my head.
There are several posters here who I admire for their knowledge and willingness to share it. One of those posters is Bill Jones. I have never met Bill but I do respect his knowledge as a former dealer, collector and numismatist. I read posts from Bill and I often give an "Agree" or "Like". I do that with a lot of other posters here, as well. I have done it with you, @Insider2 and with @specialist too.
I seldom give someone a "Disagree" and have only used the "Flag" button one other time. In this case, I thought @specialist was being over the top with his name calling and accusations. @spacehayduke said, in a following post, that @specialist should be reported and then quoted "Rule 3) Anyone attacking another poster or making disparaging personal remarks will no longer be allowed to post. No more warnings."
I would not have flagged @specialist's post had it been the first time but he has attacked @BillJones in several other threads and since no one else was going to flag it, I did. I know the moderators are not going to do anything to @specialist because they have allowed much more egregious attacks he has made against Bill to slide before but I thought that perhaps specialist might see the flag and ease up a little.
Happy New Year, all.
For Space, I would do it in a heartbeat!
I see the New Year is going to look a lot like last year on this subject
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Coin grading is just like everything else, like taxes. It's influenced by who can make money on it. Heck even different standards are used within the same series, take early copper. Then you have "carve outs" like the 1922 plain - pick any of the dies. It's not even graded the same as a 22-d.
This is a great discussion with the exception of the name calling by the Specialist as I noted earlier. I don't know what he/she thinks they are adding by doing so, and the bragging - if you truly have contributed so much to numismatics, then why do you have to brag about it? We have never heard Roger brag and my gosh he has amazing contributions.
That said, my take on what Bill is trying to say is that CAC is controlling the market value of our coins, yet their decisions on beaning can be inconsistent and some not so great coins have gotten through their system with beans on them. I agree with that. It is always possible to miss something, and grading/beaning is simply a subjective exercise. So Caveat Emptor.
Also, having a monopoly is never a good thing in most cases, which is the outcome of having CAC since we all have bought into it. I believe that part of the reason there are less and less serious collectors is that many noobs are simply turned off by the complexity of what one has to do these days to get value set on your coins. I think that is why many of these potential noobs have turned towards collecting in non-CAC areas, like collectible bullion coins which is thriving, or just moved on. So has CAC been good for the hobby? I am not so sure even though I myself have bought into it.
The positives for the collector as I have said many times, is that for at least bust and seated series (and pre-civil war southern mint gold) where I focus my collecting, CAC seems to be very concerned about the quality of the surfaces of the coins and if they have been messed with. I have learned alot about this important aspect by submitting 100s of coins to them. I don't always agree with their decisions, I have around 20% of my coins that are not CAC that I have no issues with and are as high a quality as the CAC stikered coins. I also don't agree with the CAC approach of beaning outright fugly coins because I believe eye appeal is a key aspect of putting a grade on a coin. But they can do what they want, grading is subjective, it is their company after all, not mine.
Keep it civil Specialist (no name calling drama) and let's have a productive discussion on this topic.
Best, SH
So solid for the grade today doesn't mean it will be solid for the grade in 10 years hence; esp if today's 64 becomes tomorrow's 65. I wonder how many collectors' standards will be exactly the same 10 years from now as they are today.
Hi SH---two points about your comment. I disagree that "noobs are simply turned off by the complexity....". Before CAC and before PCGS, the coins being sold to novices were doctored, overgraded, etc. The complexity back then was far greater than today. The other point is you point out that CAC has been helpful in your series of bust and seated coins. In gold, I can tell you they have been of immense help. I much prefer the world with CAC then the world without it.
This subject is so old and tired it deserves the first PCGS "STFU Already" distinction.
@saintguru said: "This subject is so old and tired it deserves the first PCGS "STFU Already" distinction.
"
I agree! It is as old as looking at coins that someone sold. Nevertheless, at least that can help us to grade.
I don't disagree with anything you say, good points. As I noted in my post, CAC focuses on surface quality and identifying messed with coins that they then reject. For that reason, 83% of my gold collection is CAC, they are fantastic at beaning the least messed with ones - a few of my gold coins that did not pass CAC, I disagree with their non-beaning, a few they did not pass, well I knew going in they would not because they were too messed with. But I learned the same issues on how to identify unmessed with gold from Doug Winter's blogs about the subject before CAC started (and anyone can still do so now), and studying the coins he lists for sale, did not need CAC stickers to tell me what to buy, the coins with stickers are still the same coins without the stickers on them. HST, having a CAC sticker on a gold piece is a must for most online old gold buying and that is a positive. So my view is we could not do without Doug Winter for collecting early gold, and numismatics would be much worse without him, CAC or no CAC. Same goes for many folks that focus on early silver.
One question I have is why is the bullion certified coin market doing so well right now? I see hoards of younger people lining up at tables like Modern Coin Mart and APMEX at big coin shows to get NGC or PCGS graded bullion coins while the rest of the bourse has a sparse showing of young customers. Pretty, not complex - MS69 or MS70 etc., no added stickers to establish value. So I am just not convinced that the complexities - slab and TPG grading, gradeflation, CAC stickers (or not), many (or most) of the old US coins have been messed with - on the US coin market, all of which affects the value of the coins you are purchasing and it is easy to lose big if you don't know what you are doing, is attractive to noobs when they can buy a slabbed MS70 bullion coin with much of the value of the coin tied to the metal value, and pretty to boot, no other of these grading issues to deal with to establish value. And if so, then CAC is part of that complexity that is driving noobs to other collecting areas or opting out completely. Something to think about is all I am saying here. On the other hand, ifyou can make it past the noob stage and overcome the daunting and intimidating task of learning coin quality and value, then you can see that CAC is mostly positive for old US coin numistmatics. But it is the noobs I wonder about for the reasons stated.
I could live with a no CAC world now that I have the knowledge I have picked up over the years on surfaces. That goes for any collector that has learned to interpret surfaces or can get advice from knowledgeable folks like Bill Jones, Tom Bush, and many others here. But it is what it is, CAC provides a service that is mostly good for eliminating coins that have had too much messing done to them. By now, most of the lesser messed with coins in the series I collect have been seen by CAC, so mostly you can make a reasonable decision on a coin on whether the green bean is there, or not.
Now HST, I think the Eagle Eye Photoseal sticker is a must for FE and IC's. Here is the expert in the field making a call on the quality of a coin compared to the grade on the slab and this is different than trying to make a call on every coin in every series in US coins where I can't even imagine that 50 years of looking at coins can give you the expertise to precisely evaluate every single coin of every series as well as EE has done for one series. If I were still collecting these, I would not buy without the PS sticker.
Best, SH
I want some pinky sweat! Why can't I get any pinky sweat? I think the whole thing is rigged.
That's what I think.
IMHO and pardon my novice observation:
Until the next one decides to "sticker" CAC for yet another additional cost; it's another layer of "middle man" before the coins reside in long term vaults.
I love my CACs for the double/triple assurance; but PCGS verification along with yours alone should be enough.
Oh with the members help of course....
*Paid 20% over spot for the history behind it. You decide whether it is better than any non CAC MS62 in the market..
Well, as a previous CRITIC of CAC what I'm doing now is giving preference TO CAC stickered coins purely and simply as a considered "tactical matter."
I still think that harm is being done to a lot of coin sellers but that's immaterial and not pertinent to my NEW "strategy." ???
I've sent in a few and ...maybe... will do more. Gotta wait and see first.
BUT.... with this market, there are enough vendors who want sales and sell the CAC coins at a commensurate price with NON stickered coins.
THEM is de ones I'ze buyin.'
Sort of why I only have slabs now.
It can convince people of integrity and reliability whether or not it's justified.
Like slabs, what's it matter if it's a new grading service or not?
Soooo..... why not stack the deck?
I just ordered a coin today that is stickered and nice. Competitively priced at market for the date and type. So..... no extra charge, but a possible easier sale down the line.
IF I choose to sell.
N'est ce Pas?
When I bought all my Saints there was no CAC. Every one except one stickered. My eyes were "CAC". Hopefully many of you could have the same luck although almost everything that would deserve a sticker already has one. I'm not an expert on doctored coins but I suppose my filters were just lucky.