CAC is 10 years old

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS · December 10, 2017 7:41AM

Do you think CAC has been good for our hobby?

earlyAurum · December 10, 2017 7:50AM

Yes. Very good. CAC keeps the TPGs honest, helps combat doctoring and provides a layer of comfort to the average collector. Most of my coins are CAC approved and when I compare them to non approved coins, I can reason why more easily.
CAC/John cares about the industry and has made it better in my opinion.

Boosibri · December 10, 2017 8:07AM

Yes if you have embraced that you still have much to learn and leverage CAC as a resource. No if you have gone it alone without a good dealer partner or without acknowledging the impact of the changing standards which CAC has initiated.

lcoopie · December 10, 2017 8:19AM

Time passes so fast.

Very good as it's a valuable resource.

BryceM · December 10, 2017 8:37AM

Yes the concept is solid. In general I like it as a force to prevent some abuses. I have some lingering concerns about one person exerting so much influence on the market. I’ve not heard anything that would lead me to question JA’s ethics, professionalism, knowledge, or judgement. Still, multiple highly regarded experts can have very different opinions and that interplay usually works to the common good. This isn’t happening in coins as much as it should. Personal preference, especially in the arena of eye appeal counts for something. Also, no expert, no matter how good, can be the leading expert in every series.

..... but I am grateful for the mug.

spacehayduke · December 10, 2017 8:52AM

For the hobby, hard to say. For the coin market, good for many, not good for those who don't sell CAC stickered coins. For the individual like me, overall, yes CAC has been good. But, for the hobby, well.....

The idea that you can have slabs with a grade and it is not enough, now you need to have a certain companies slab, now you need a sticker, and then even the sticker isn't always the final word on value, would have made me think 'what the hail am I getting myself into' if I were just starting out today. I have to wonder then, how many possible new collectors are turned away from all of this. There is also the issue of why one man should be the final decision maker on value of coins (as Bill Jones has pointed out and is a good thing to consider). Could be why the market is in a downward spin overall? Could be why ANA membership is plummeting? Too many turned off by slabs and stickers and valuation oh my?

Has CAC been good for the hobby? Good question and depends on how one looks at it.

Best, SH

Weiss · December 10, 2017 9:00AM

I like it. I've become much more comfortable buying items online. I have yet to be disappointed by an item with a bean. I'm more confident my buyers will be satisfied with a bean, too.

Cougar1978 · December 10, 2017 9:24AM

So what - They a very small part of total certified material. No impact whatsoever on mods, currency, world coins - which are major market areas. There is no substitute for knowing how to look at, grade, and price coins. While the sticker can enhance marketability more a factor on big ticket material where cost over BV over $300.

I do have a few in inventory and will bid on them between blue and grey. I do like it the CDN is reporting them.

EagleEye · December 10, 2017 11:13AM

Also the 21st anniversary of Eagle Eye Photo Seal.

ms70 · December 10, 2017 11:40AM

There's lots of opinions but no hard statistics.

jedm · December 10, 2017 11:45AM

In my humble opinion, yes. I have only observations after being active in the hobby for almost 15 years now,but no statistics on which to base my opinion.

Nic · December 10, 2017 12:21PM

@STEWARTBLAYNUMIS said:
Do you think CAC has been good for our hobby?

Yes

Peace_dollar88 · December 10, 2017 1:00PM

I think it has been good for the hobby.

asheland · December 10, 2017 1:44PM

I like them. Sure.

Catbert · December 10, 2017 2:30PM

Gawd, another CAC thread.........

coinkat · December 10, 2017 2:58PM

Yes if it were used properly and there lyes the reason for my No vote. When it is forced upon me by those that say the market demands it for certain types of coins at various grade levels where the spread between grades is minimal or the value of the coin just does warrant the review based on the look of the coin, then I have to say No. If I had an MS66 Monroe, I would insist on a CAC review. If I had a 1881-s Morgan in 66, I would not care. I have Seated Dollars graded in 45 to 58 that I like for the look and a CAC sticker will not influence or change my mind as to whether it meets my expectations. Unfortunately, there seems to be a common sense factor that has been lost and that has had a negative impact on coins and collecting them.

EagleEye · December 10, 2017 3:05PM

For you numismatic historians: CAC was copied from the limited success of Eagle Eye Photo Seal (started in 1996). I say limited because EEPS is just for FE and Indian cents. It never was just a labeling service, both CAC and EEPS make a market in the coins they sticker. The originator of the idea comes from Bob Campbell of All About Coins in Utah. He made the prediction back in 1993 that that a sticker service evaluating the grade on the holder would be the natural evolution of third party grading. I was there when he predicted it. It might have been ANA Summer Seminar.

coinkat · December 10, 2017 3:20PM

And it was not an unreasonable prediction nor a viable undertaking provided that it is used within reason and NOT unreasonably imposed.

Crypto · December 10, 2017 3:27PM

I think cac is systematic of the times like everything else, a rush to quality. It is complicated with pros and cons. If you are willing to trust a pro and write full size checks and hold for 20-30 years you should be ok with coins that should hold the test of time condition wise.

It makes being a noob a little easier if you are willing to pay full retail
It provides the only guarantee/insurance worth anything left in our hobby now that PCGS and NGC have watered theirs down
it made it easier to be Dealer and add value to coins for profit just in the nick of time as quality raw coins were drying up
they have a better eye for problems than most collectors and more incentive to point them out than most dealers

On the downside

it has undercut the value of non-cac coins, every year that goes by, coins get more guilty until proven otherwise
it has added an additional cost layer for resale to maximize returns
it has changed the ideal condition of liquidity for our hobby with the coin being just one factor in the price of the coin.
further Skews importance to condition as the paramount attribute. There was a time it was simply the date

Goldbully · December 10, 2017 3:47PM

@STEWARTBLAYNUMIS, do you think CAC has been good for our hobby?

Shamika · December 10, 2017 3:49PM

I'm not a fan although I do own quite a few CAC coins. The problem I have is that the majority of my collection was put together before CAC and if/when I liquidate my collection it will now be viewed with suspicion. That is if, of course, I don't shell out a bunch of money submitting my collection to CAC. Either way, I lose money.

Shamika · December 10, 2017 3:53PM

@earlyAurum said:
Yes. Very good. CAC keeps the TPGs honest, helps combat doctoring and provides a layer of comfort to the average collector.

So the TPG's where created to keep the dealers honest. Now we need fourth party to keep the TPG's honest? When will we need a fifth party to keep CAC honest?

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS · December 10, 2017 4:04PM

The cost to send a coin to CAC for a sticker is $ 13.50 for coins under $ 10,000
$ 27.00 for coins over $ 10,000

I will say unequivocally how can you not afford to send your certified coins to CAC ?

Gluggo · December 10, 2017 5:30PM

So far 90% of the coins I have bought are CAC. Did I pay more? Maybe.

topstuf · December 10, 2017 5:46PM

I have fallen for the hype. And that's all I consider it.
My GC coins that were beaned sucked in more bids. Nuff said.

I will, however hold all of their "approved" stuff to ...MY requirement for appearance.

AND if I reluctantly PAY any "premium" for them, it won't exceed a very small amount.

So... bean em.... But don't go stupid.

OnlyGoldIsMoney · December 10, 2017 5:50PM

Yes - good for the hobby.

Crypto · December 10, 2017 6:43PM

@STEWARTBLAYNUMIS said:
The cost to send a coin to CAC for a sticker is $ 13.50 for coins under $ 10,000
$ 27.00 for coins over $ 10,000

I will say unequivocally how can you not afford to send your certified coins to CAC ?

That is slightly misleading. Most collectors only have access to dealers who charge per coin and not the cac rate of only the coins that sticker. If you are selling 100 coins that would be at least 1350$ and only 25 or so might sticker if the collector is decent.

Most collections of widgets would struggle to recoup that

BdaltonDiamond · December 10, 2017 7:03PM

CAC is good but, also bad. No real guarantee that the coin is the best for the grade. Just because a coin has a CAC sticker doesn't always mean its better than other coins offered for sale or in a major auction. Also, I've worked in heavy industry for 35 plus years and a sticker of ANY TYPE can been copied. Anything that has value can be and will be copied. There are fake slabs on the market and I wouldn't doubt that some will pass as good for years before being caught. Do not rely on a sticker or a certain slab being the best. Use your eyes and judgement when buying coins. If it doesn't seem right it probably isn't!

I've found it pretty funny that every time a new slab design hits the market it seems like most of the coins on the market show up in those slabs. Not more coins on the market just more coins being cracked out. I prefer the older slabs with no edge view. The new edge view slabs actually disrupt viewing the surfaces of smaller coins. Dollars good / 3 cent silvers very bad.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS · December 10, 2017 7:14PM

CAC will not be around forever
It is a current advantage to buying and selling certain coins
Take advantage of it !

cnncoins · December 10, 2017 7:40PM

First CAC is here to stay (thanks for the Mug John!). Dealers and Collectors would not send their coins to CAC unless it was advantageous. The reality is that they bring more money in the marketplace. I do not agree with Specialist that the the market would be even 50% less than it is now without CAC. There are huge buyers that do not care about CAC (Our company deals with both), and the biggest buyer in the last 18 months bought coins he needed regardless of the "Bean".
There have always been dealers and collectors who could tell the high end coins from the average. PCGS and CAC have both come along to quantify this and to make it a more level playing field for everyone. I remember when the market had tanked after the 1990/1991 market. You could buy absolutely gorgeous type coins (wild toning as well as well as black and white cameo proofs) for roughly 10% over Bluesheet. As an example, I bought a Bust Dollar in PCGS 64 that was super high end. Bluesheet was 37,500 and I had to pay 40K because it was super high end. It's now in a PCGS 65 holder and worth well over 200K. If you knew what was high end you had a huge advantage. CAC is really helping everyone (dealers as well as collectors), and today, they can affirm high end coins and help those who, quite frankly, have trouble telling the difference. CAC does make mistakes, but it is a great way to help eliminate the "problem" coins that get in holders. Happy Anniversary CAC! You've given the hobby and industry a great product!

Justacommeman · December 10, 2017 8:01PM

@STEWARTBLAYNUMIS said:
CAC will not be around forever
It is a current advantage to buying and selling certain coins
Take advantage of it !

Agree.

If John were to retire tomorrow and CAC ceased to operate I would think the spread between CAC non CAC would only increase........of course something else might come around. You never know

m

BAJJERFAN · December 10, 2017 8:28PM

@Crypto said:

@STEWARTBLAYNUMIS said:
The cost to send a coin to CAC for a sticker is $ 13.50 for coins under $ 10,000
$ 27.00 for coins over $ 10,000

I will say unequivocally how can you not afford to send your certified coins to CAC ?

That is slightly misleading. Most collectors only have access to dealers who charge per coin and not the cac rate of only the coins that sticker. If you are selling 100 coins that would be at least 1350$ and only 25 or so might sticker if the collector is decent.

Most collections of widgets would struggle to recoup that

They have to be worth stickering in the first place. If you intend to make a profit on a $100 coin, probly not worth the $13.50 plus shipping.

BAJJERFAN · December 10, 2017 8:31PM

@BdaltonDiamond said:
CAC is good but, also bad. No real guarantee that the coin is the best for the grade. Just because a coin has a CAC sticker doesn't always mean its better than other coins offered for sale or in a major auction. Also, I've worked in heavy industry for 35 plus years and a sticker of ANY TYPE can been copied. Anything that has value can be and will be copied. There are fake slabs on the market and I wouldn't doubt that some will pass as good for years before being caught. Do not rely on a sticker or a certain slab being the best. Use your eyes and judgement when buying coins. If it doesn't seem right it probably isn't!

I've found it pretty funny that every time a new slab design hits the market it seems like most of the coins on the market show up in those slabs. Not more coins on the market just more coins being cracked out. I prefer the older slabs with no edge view. The new edge view slabs actually disrupt viewing the surfaces of smaller coins. Dollars good / 3 cent silvers very bad.

The sticker is not intended to signify that the coin in the holder to which it is affixed/stucked is the best for the grade or any other reason.

Timbuk3 · December 10, 2017 9:46PM

Wow, how time flies, congratulations !!!

Crypto · December 10, 2017 9:50PM

@BAJJERFAN said:

@Crypto said:

@STEWARTBLAYNUMIS said:
The cost to send a coin to CAC for a sticker is $ 13.50 for coins under $ 10,000
$ 27.00 for coins over $ 10,000

I will say unequivocally how can you not afford to send your certified coins to CAC ?

That is slightly misleading. Most collectors only have access to dealers who charge per coin and not the cac rate of only the coins that sticker. If you are selling 100 coins that would be at least 1350$ and only 25 or so might sticker if the collector is decent.

Most collections of widgets would struggle to recoup that

They have to be worth stickering in the first place. If you intend to make a profit on a $100 coin, probly not worth the $13.50 plus shipping.

Agree completely but that doesn’t stop people from going hmmmmm why not CACed.

Walkerfan · December 10, 2017 10:10PM

Wow, time flies........Congratulations!

CAC is a useful tool.

Gazes · December 11, 2017 6:12AM

I am a fan of CAC because it is especially useful for purchasing gold coins.

I do not understand people when they say CAC is good for novice collectors but hurts more advanced collectors. If you are an advance collector who purchased coins pre CAC or coins that have no sticker you should by definition have an advantage because a majority of your coins should sticker if sent in. If they don't, it is possible that you are not as advanced as you think you are. I had a major dealer tell me he makes significant money identifying coins without a sticker that he feels will (and if he can cross it from NGC to PCGS all the better). In other words, it is an opportunity for the advanced collector.

Almost no one on these boards would recommend buying a coin for a few thousand dollars on up without seeing it first. The sticker is JA having looked at the coin first hand and giving his opinion---yes, to me that is a good thing. There are millions of coins in slabs and thousands of coins with stickers----anyone can find mistakes. But in my experience CAC and JA are right far greater than the few mistakes. I would never base my decision making on the exception rather than the rule.

topstuf · December 11, 2017 6:13AM

I only want coins with stickers that are still steaming.

astrorat · December 11, 2017 6:29AM

Viewing coins with CAC stickers is a great learning experience and one of the ways collectors (and dealers) can enhance their grading skills. Sending your own coins to CAC is not only a great learning experience, it's also affirmation about your grading abilities, post-hoc.

And they have a pretty cool 10th anniversary coffee mug!

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS · December 11, 2017 6:29AM

Bill Jones - you cite one example that CAC
may have made a mistake and rag about it. IMO most ms 62 coins should be graded AU 62.
“Lost in transit” can happen when you send your coin anywhere. I’ll bet you can count on less than one hand coins that were lost in transit from and to CAC.
BTW I drive my coins out there . It is quite a nice ride !

TwoSides2aCoin · December 11, 2017 7:09AM

Not sure about the benefit to the hobby but it’s been good for a few egos and wallets,as well as a few players in the industry ( er business). The hobby never needed help.

ricko · December 11, 2017 7:28AM

Congratulations to JA/CAC on ten years. I remember very well the incredible storm of posts when CAC was launched.... Most were either super negative or decidedly positive. It went on for months as the central theme.... of course, it has continued through these ten years as an almost daily topic for one reason or another. There is no doubt of the impact on pricing - there is a premium that exceeds cost - in most cases. Certainly it is, for the most part, an additional layer of security. One should also remember that a lack of a sticker does not signify a bad coin...just one that JA/CAC considers below their standard (clearly posted). As I said, it has had a positive impact on profitability... and a deleterious effect on coins without a sticker - in some segments of the hobby. It is certainly interesting to watch the evolution of grading/certification services. What is next? Cheers, RickO

BIGAL2749 · December 11, 2017 7:58AM

It's easy to agree with both sides of the arguments.

When I first heard of the CAC stickers I felt it was just another gimmick that extracts money from the collector without any long time benefit. I've sent coins back in the 90's a second time when dealers claimed the TPG were looser and it never seemed to work for me after fees plus high insurance costs.

Also bothers me that one person has the final say, wasn't the concept of PCGS grading in the 80's was to get the final say?
And yet some don't regard a NGC MS-64 CAC as being worth a PCGS MS64 CAC ? I'd like to hear the reason behind that.

PCGS came at a time when it was needed, buying raw coins from even the major mail order dealers was pretty lawless where 63+ Morgans routinely passed as gem 65's.
Then they dropped the ball with changing standards and CAC came in and did help to separate the wheat from the chaff. I certainly have a high regard of JA's opinion but I've seen many "overstickered" (if overgraded why not overstickered) coins that aren't flying off the shelves.
Will we need another confirmation service to reevaluate? I think that may very well happen perhaps with specialists on a series as FFPS. I think it's inevitable.

mommam17 · December 11, 2017 12:55PM

Yes, CAC is very good for the hobby. I have been a supporter since day 1, a coin show in Old Greewich, Ct. It's been a great 10 years for me and talking to John Albanese by email. When they started there was lots of opposition and some wanted it to fail. Things have really turned around since 10 years ago! Agreed, love the mugs.....

BryceM · December 11, 2017 1:13PM

Maybe you old-timers can correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't PQ coins sell for more and not-so-great coins sell for less long before CAC came along?

It seems like everyone has forgotten that.

topstuf · December 11, 2017 1:21PM

@BryceM said:
Maybe you old-timers can correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't PQ coins sell for more and not-so-great coins sell for less long before CAC came along?

It seems like everyone has forgotten that.

You troublemaker, you!

Kkathyl · December 11, 2017 1:28PM

I don't think that the market is changed by 40% from CAC sorry.

steveben · December 11, 2017 1:37PM

yes

CCDollar · December 11, 2017 1:43PM

Yes...CAC'd coins are fitting into my collection just fine...
CC

MrEureka · December 11, 2017 2:14PM

@earlyAurum said:
Yes. Very good. CAC keeps the TPGs honest, helps combat doctoring and provides a layer of comfort to the average collector. Most of my coins are CAC approved and when I compare them to non approved coins, I can reason why more easily.
CAC/John cares about the industry and has made it better in my opinion.

I agree completely. However, the question was if CAC has been good for the hobby, and I could argue that either way. The pro-CAC argument is as earlyAurum stated. The other side is best answered with a question. Would the hobby be better off if there were fewer collectors, fewer investors, less emphasis on grading, lower prices and less plastic? Like I said, I could argue that either way.

CAC is 10 years old

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