Contemporary Counterfeit Coins

RogerB · December 7, 2017 10:04AM

Is anyone working on a detailed treatment of counterfeit US coins from the 1800-1950 period? This seems like an interesting and potentially useful field of study.

Treashunt · December 7, 2017 10:05AM

Agreed, it would be interesting to see

messydesk · December 7, 2017 10:08AM

The name Winston Zack comes to mind.

Insider2 · December 7, 2017 10:21AM

Since most who could date these things are dead, in most cases, it would only be conjecture as to when the fakes were made. Some coins that actually are contemporary have been published by Bust Half dollar collectors. A few fakes are imaged in Riddell's book also. IMO, the lead fakes that are all over should not be considered. IMO, only the decent fakes from hand cut dies, Machin's, or coins such as the Henning nickels fit as contemporary. Most die struck counterfeit gold is also too modern and not contemporary. See the problem?

Thanks, I just looked up Mr. Zack. That's a start.

messydesk · December 7, 2017 12:19PM

@Insider2 said:
Since most who could date these things are dead, in most cases, it would only be conjecture as to when the fakes were made. Some coins that actually are contemporary have been published by Bust Half dollar collectors. A few fakes are imaged in Riddell's book also. IMO, the lead fakes that are all over should not be considered. IMO, only the decent fakes from hand cut dies, Machin's, or coins such as the Henning nickels fit as contemporary. Most die struck counterfeit gold is also too modern and not contemporary. See the problem?

One problem is differentiating among contemporary counterfeits, counterfeits made to fool collectors, counterfeits made at the request of collectors (early copper electrotypes, for example). To generalize, it's not always easy to tell the motive behind the piece.

Insider2 · December 7, 2017 12:24PM

I've never considered electrotypes to fit either. I believe most were made either by request or to fool collectors and not to circulate. That may be a better breakdown...circulating contemporary counterfeits. That's what Zack's pieces are.

carabonnair · December 7, 2017 12:27PM

When possible, Winston is using contemporary newspaper accounts of counterfeits.

Zoins · December 7, 2017 1:06PM

@messydesk said:

@Insider2 said:
Since most who could date these things are dead, in most cases, it would only be conjecture as to when the fakes were made. Some coins that actually are contemporary have been published by Bust Half dollar collectors. A few fakes are imaged in Riddell's book also. IMO, the lead fakes that are all over should not be considered. IMO, only the decent fakes from hand cut dies, Machin's, or coins such as the Henning nickels fit as contemporary. Most die struck counterfeit gold is also too modern and not contemporary. See the problem?

One problem is differentiating among contemporary counterfeits, counterfeits made to fool collectors, counterfeits made at the request of collectors (early copper electrotypes, for example). To generalize, it's not always easy to tell the motive behind the piece.

I thought contemporary counterfeits were made to fool merchants and banks, not collectors. Collectors come along mostly after a coin has had a useful circulating life.

messydesk · December 7, 2017 2:07PM

@Zoins said:

@messydesk said:

@Insider2 said:
Since most who could date these things are dead, in most cases, it would only be conjecture as to when the fakes were made. Some coins that actually are contemporary have been published by Bust Half dollar collectors. A few fakes are imaged in Riddell's book also. IMO, the lead fakes that are all over should not be considered. IMO, only the decent fakes from hand cut dies, Machin's, or coins such as the Henning nickels fit as contemporary. Most die struck counterfeit gold is also too modern and not contemporary. See the problem?

One problem is differentiating among contemporary counterfeits, counterfeits made to fool collectors, counterfeits made at the request of collectors (early copper electrotypes, for example). To generalize, it's not always easy to tell the motive behind the piece.

I thought contemporary counterfeits were made to fool merchants and banks, not collectors. Collectors come along mostly after a coin has had a useful circulating life.

Yes, that's the definition of and motivation for making contemporary counterfeits. It's not necessarily trivial to discern that motivation from only the coin, however.

RogerB · December 7, 2017 2:09PM

Link: coinbooks.org/esylum_v19n46a11.html

RogerB · December 7, 2017 2:14PM

Electrotype and similar pieces were generally made for educational uses and not to fool anyone. They gradually fell out of favor as prices for rare varieties advanced and more people entered the hobby.

Many circulating counterfeits were very good and there are many letters in Mint archives attesting to difficulties in determining of a piece was real of fake. A Loudoun Snowden discussed some very deceptive counterfeits in several letters. The Morgan dollar fakes with micro mintmarks also are quite deceptive.

mustangmanbob · December 7, 2017 2:33PM

Maybe the best fakes have not been found out yet.

Insider2 · December 7, 2017 3:03PM

@RogerB said:
Link: coinbooks.org/esylum_v19n46a11.html

Cannot wait for those books. Then the value of all those pieces will soar - just as the CA gold "charms" have done.

Treashunt · December 7, 2017 3:38PM

@Insider2 said:

@RogerB said:
Link: coinbooks.org/esylum_v19n46a11.html

Cannot wait for those books. Then the value of all those pieces will soar - just as the CA gold "charms" have done.

I should find mine [the CA gold charm] and post it for info.

Thanks.

TomB · December 7, 2017 9:42PM

Keith Davignon has published an extensive die marriage listing for early half dollars (1839 and prior, if I recall correctly). The work is fantastic and has many wonderful images.

howards · December 7, 2017 10:53PM

http://www.shieldnickels.net/articles/Counterfeits/ContemporaryCounterfeits.pdf

ernie11 · December 8, 2017 2:02AM

The Liberty Seated Collectors Club has a nice set of pages on contemporary counterfeits with images, at http://www.lsccweb.org/Contemporary_Counterfeits.htm. I have an 1872-CC dime that is a contemp counterfeit.

Treashunt · December 8, 2017 4:21AM

@TomB said:
Keith Davignon has published an extensive die marriage listing for early half dollars (1839 and prior, if I recall correctly). The work is fantastic and has many wonderful images.

yes, great reference, and a great read

ricko · December 8, 2017 7:23AM

I have a counterfeit 1902 CC Morgan that circulated.... Very well done... Cheers, RickO

colonialjohn · January 12, 2018 4:40PM

amazon.com/gp/product/1981898042/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Done! John Lorenzo

dcarr · January 12, 2018 9:13PM

@Insider2 said:
Since most who could date these things are dead, in most cases, it would only be conjecture as to when the fakes were made. Some coins that actually are contemporary have been published by Bust Half dollar collectors. A few fakes are imaged in Riddell's book also. IMO, the lead fakes that are all over should not be considered. IMO, only the decent fakes from hand cut dies, Machin's, or coins such as the Henning nickels fit as contemporary. Most die struck counterfeit gold is also too modern and not contemporary. See the problem?

Thanks, I just looked up Mr. Zack. That's a start.

I think a comprehensive book on the subject would be very interesting.
The criteria that I would use to define a vintage counterfeit that would be included in such a book would have to be:
1) The piece must have been made with the intent to spend at face value.
2) The piece circulated alongside genuine coins.
3) Die struck (no castings).

Zoins · January 12, 2018 9:20PM

@messydesk said:

@Insider2 said:
Since most who could date these things are dead, in most cases, it would only be conjecture as to when the fakes were made. Some coins that actually are contemporary have been published by Bust Half dollar collectors. A few fakes are imaged in Riddell's book also. IMO, the lead fakes that are all over should not be considered. IMO, only the decent fakes from hand cut dies, Machin's, or coins such as the Henning nickels fit as contemporary. Most die struck counterfeit gold is also too modern and not contemporary. See the problem?

One problem is differentiating among contemporary counterfeits, counterfeits made to fool collectors, counterfeits made at the request of collectors (early copper electrotypes, for example). To generalize, it's not always easy to tell the motive behind the piece.

Are there any made at the request of collectors to fool other collectors?

Contemporary Counterfeit Coins

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