@BillJones said:
In the past when lower grade St. Gaudens $20 gold coins were selling for close to melt or even a little less than melt, it was an indicator that gold bullion prices were too high and about to drop. Could that be the case now?
When gold bullion rises sharply and people dump common gold coins, it's probably more about taking profits than about having crystal balls.
I can remember standing in the JJ Teaparty store when it was open in Boston years ago. They were selling circulated St. Gaudens $20 gold pieces over the counter for less than melt, and everyone I knew within my circle of collector friends figured that the gold bullion price was about to drop.
I can remember buying them for $42
VERY shortly thereafter though, they were WAY up to 60 bucks.
Damn, I am an old cuss.
I remember when dealers were advertising them in the trade publications like "Coins" and "COINage" for $49.95 in "BU". I never bought them because I was afraid of getting a counterfeit, and those days I could not have spotted them if they were bad. I paid the high price of $75 for BU $20 gold pieces for my type set.
Later I saw some of those $49.95, $20 gold coins that another collector had bought. They were pretty baggy with lots of marks. In those days there was "BU" and "Gem Unc." for Mint State grades. "BU" could be anything from AU to fairly decent. "Gem Unc." covered MS-64 and up. The $75 pieces I bought came back in MS-64.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@DancingFire said:
MS63 Saints will soon go into the melting pot!..
Only if the demand for 0.999 fine gold coins (or 100/400 oz bank bullion bars) becomes so great that the 0.90 fine classic gold coins have to make up the difference. Fwiw, the US Mint is still making 0.91% fine AGE's. The Buffs are the "pure" ones. I'd much rather have an XF/AU $20 Saint than a 1 oz. bullion bar.
To clarify for the new collector:
The $20 gold is .90 fine gold, weighs 1.075 oz., and contains .9675 oz of pure gold.
The $50 gold AGE is .9167 fine gold, weighs 1.0909 oz. and contains 1 oz. of pure gold.
The $50 gold buffalo is .9999 fine gold, weighs 1 oz. and contains 1 oz. of pure gold.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Double eagles were not really intended or expected to circulate in commerce. From their beginning, they were viewed as a way to move gold of consistent purity and weight into international commerce. When Mint Bureau production of fine gold bars for export was approved, banks and importers had two convenient ways to collect, package and ship gold out the country. Almost all of this was melted on receipt (as was foreign gold brought to this country) and either recast or coined.
For someone today who is buying gold but is not a collector, the obvious choices are 0.999 pieces with the lowest cost compared to melt. US double eagles, sovereigns, Napoleons, etc. are not worth any premium to these buyers, and might trade at a discount due to wear and alloy content.
Oh my lord. Glad I found this thread. I've been getting an awfully itchy trigger finger on Old Gold lately. Glad I haven't pulled yet. Got to make sure I go for a real worthwhile specimen.... I'm not a millionaire by any means.
Local dealer told me a very large dealer told him that they are stuck with $millions in generic gold (even MS65), that they can't move except at a loss.
@Elmhurst said:
Local dealer told me a very large dealer told him that they are stuck with $millions in generic gold (even MS65), that they can't move except at a loss.
This tells me that if the POG stays low that they will eventually have to sell...even at a loss. I've noticed that available supplies of graded MS 64 have recently dwindled and had a feeling that some were holding back inventory in the hopes that prices will rise.
Wow, will we ever get to the point where $20 Liberties are "common" like a load of Morgans? Excellent ! I Love $20 Liberties and I'd love to have a big bunch of them. So far I only have 2 , the last one obtained around 16 years ago. I'd love to grab about 10 more . To me , a pre 1900 $20 Liberty (MS63 or better) is the greatest mood enhancer going.
@FullStrike said:
Wow, will we ever get to the point where $20 Liberties are "common" like a load of Morgans? Excellent ! I Love $20 Liberties and I'd love to have a big bunch of them. So far I only have 2 , the last one obtained around 16 years ago. I'd love to grab about 10 more . To me , a pre 1900 $20 Liberty (MS63 or better) is the greatest mood enhancer going.
Only if they are dated 1904 or perhaps 1904-S.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Does anyone know why all this gold is coming to market at once. I was told it has to do with European banking laws, if this is true then it probably has to do with how the coins are valued for reserve purposes. Also if true does anyone have any idea how much more will come to market and over what timeframe.
When pm prices are low they are unpopular, when they are high everyone wants them. Herd mentality. True collector coins will always have a following, and I guess we are it.
Is it possible the concept of "value" brought about by Bitcoin has affected physical European Vaults full of rotting US Gold? 😄
I can see why those people in New York with the Bags of Morgans decided to stop paying Vault Fees , also. Bitcoin has rearranged Peoples Brains for sure when it comes to " Value".
@Elmhurst said:
Local dealer told me a very large dealer told him that they are stuck with $millions in generic gold (even MS65), that they can't move except at a loss.
What the heck are they doing over there?
I'm picturing giant animatronic dung beetles rolling bags around.
@Bochiman said:
So, what would a nice MS64 CAC PCGS saint (common) run these days?
Ebay is still, imho, a bit overpriced. My locals don't have any.
Most CAC'ers go for at least PCGS price or $1450 right now in 1924-P, 1927-P or 1928-P
I don't buy CAC coins so someone else may have more informed info.
@Bochiman said:
So, what would a nice MS64 CAC PCGS saint (common) run these days?
Ebay is still, imho, a bit overpriced. My locals don't have any.
Most CAC'ers go for at least PCGS price or $1450 right now in 1924-P, 1927-P or 1928-P
I don't buy CAC coins so someone else may have more informed info.
CAC price guide for a 1924 PCGS 64 CAC $20 St Gaudens has them trading between $1500 and $1750. The lowest price I could find on a quick search from an actual seller was $1775.
@Bochiman said:
So, what would a nice MS64 CAC PCGS saint (common) run these days?
Ebay is still, imho, a bit overpriced. My locals don't have any.
Most CAC'ers go for at least PCGS price or $1450 right now in 1924-P, 1927-P or 1928-P
I don't buy CAC coins so someone else may have more informed info.
CAC price guide for a 1924 PCGS 64 CAC $20 St Gaudens has them trading between $1500 and $1750. The lowest price I could find on a quick search from an actual seller was $1775.
CAC price is wholesale right? Is your dealer search for retail?
@derryb said:
Common saints remain overpriced. The gold in my cheaper common American Eagle is just as old and heavier.
Just how is an American Eagle just as old as a Saint???
He means that the gold in both coins was originally created in a supernova explosion or neutron star collision some 8 to 10 billion years ago, not that the extremely more recently minted coins are the exact same age in that form, only that from that perspective, they might as well be, as gold is gold at such low premium to melt.
The Universe is awash in gold, but most of it is relatively difficult for humans to access, currently. Once we start mining the asteroid belt, there ought to be plenty.
For now, lots of saints coming back home from Europe. Perhaps some will be better dates, too, sending them overseas might be why they're heretofore scarce.
I enjoy these more than the bullion Eagles. If both are basically melt price I'll go with the Saint every time. Same goes with foreign gold like Sovereigns, Roosters, etc.
@Yacorie1 said:
Dealer wholesale prices are pretty close to melt it seems - I'm just in the market for slabbed low MS coins near melt to stack. Anything else is gravy
Dealer wholesale prices are UNDER melt for 60/61 Saints - unless you mean dealer-to-dealer prices in which case they are about $10-$15 over.
@Yacorie1 said:
Dealer wholesale prices are pretty close to melt it seems - I'm just in the market for slabbed low MS coins near melt to stack. Anything else is gravy
Dealer wholesale prices are UNDER melt for 60/61 Saints - meaning what dealers are paying. Dealer-to-dealer sales are $10-$15 over.
Although, if you think about it, based on fineness, 22kt gold should really trade below melt. Look at Sterling silver vs. 0.999 silver
@Yacorie1 said:
Dealer wholesale prices are pretty close to melt it seems - I'm just in the market for slabbed low MS coins near melt to stack. Anything else is gravy
Dealer wholesale prices are UNDER melt for 60/61 Saints - meaning what dealers are paying. Dealer-to-dealer sales are $10-$15 over.
Although, if you think about it, based on fineness, 22kt gold should really trade below melt. Look at Sterling silver vs. 0.999 silver
One of the shop dealers in Central Illinois tells his walk-in selling customers "of course, sterling silver IS NOT real silver" and he proceeds to offer 30% of scrap. This dealer has done this hundreds of times.
Although, if you think about it, based on fineness, 22kt gold should really trade below melt. Look at Sterling silver vs. 0.999 silver
One of the shop dealers in Central Illinois tells his walk-in selling customers "of course, sterling silver IS NOT real silver" and he proceeds to offer 30% of scrap. This dealer has done this hundreds of times.
Well, 30% is a bit low. But there are refining costs for lower fineness bullion. If you've got 14 kt jewelry, you wouldn't expect to get full gold value to scrap it.
Although, if you think about it, based on fineness, 22kt gold should really trade below melt. Look at Sterling silver vs. 0.999 silver
One of the shop dealers in Central Illinois tells his walk-in selling customers "of course, sterling silver IS NOT real silver" and he proceeds to offer 30% of scrap. This dealer has done this hundreds of times.
Well, 30% is a bit low. But there are refining costs for lower fineness bullion. If you've got 14 kt jewelry, you wouldn't expect to get full gold value to scrap it.
Saying 30% is a bit low is a bit of an understatement
@Yacorie1 said:
Dealer wholesale prices are pretty close to melt it seems - I'm just in the market for slabbed low MS coins near melt to stack. Anything else is gravy
Dealer wholesale prices are UNDER melt for 60/61 Saints - meaning what dealers are paying. Dealer-to-dealer sales are $10-$15 over.
Although, if you think about it, based on fineness, 22kt gold should really trade below melt. Look at Sterling silver vs. 0.999 silver
And then if you think More about it, it's the form rather than the alloy, that makes sterling sell at a discount to pure bullion items.
Broken necklaces and bent forks sell for less than melt. 18th century tankards and candlesticks, maybe not
@Yacorie1 said:
Dealer wholesale prices are pretty close to melt it seems - I'm just in the market for slabbed low MS coins near melt to stack. Anything else is gravy
Dealer wholesale prices are UNDER melt for 60/61 Saints - unless you mean dealer-to-dealer prices in which case they are about $10-$15 over.
Yeah i guess I was talking about dealer to dealer networks. Here locally, I can't find any 60/61 saints for anything close to that - even factoring in some cash for the dealer. The premiums are crazy still.
Comments
I remember when dealers were advertising them in the trade publications like "Coins" and "COINage" for $49.95 in "BU". I never bought them because I was afraid of getting a counterfeit, and those days I could not have spotted them if they were bad. I paid the high price of $75 for BU $20 gold pieces for my type set.
Later I saw some of those $49.95, $20 gold coins that another collector had bought. They were pretty baggy with lots of marks. In those days there was "BU" and "Gem Unc." for Mint State grades. "BU" could be anything from AU to fairly decent. "Gem Unc." covered MS-64 and up. The $75 pieces I bought came back in MS-64.
To clarify for the new collector:
The $20 gold is .90 fine gold, weighs 1.075 oz., and contains .9675 oz of pure gold.
The $50 gold AGE is .9167 fine gold, weighs 1.0909 oz. and contains 1 oz. of pure gold.
The $50 gold buffalo is .9999 fine gold, weighs 1 oz. and contains 1 oz. of pure gold.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Many millions already have.
@derryb
Thanks for explaining
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Bad transactions with : nobody to date
Double eagles were not really intended or expected to circulate in commerce. From their beginning, they were viewed as a way to move gold of consistent purity and weight into international commerce. When Mint Bureau production of fine gold bars for export was approved, banks and importers had two convenient ways to collect, package and ship gold out the country. Almost all of this was melted on receipt (as was foreign gold brought to this country) and either recast or coined.
For someone today who is buying gold but is not a collector, the obvious choices are 0.999 pieces with the lowest cost compared to melt. US double eagles, sovereigns, Napoleons, etc. are not worth any premium to these buyers, and might trade at a discount due to wear and alloy content.
!0% copper polutes the purity of the gold and no body wants that.
Did I miss any speculation as to why this sudden surge of Saints back into the U.S.?
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Regardless of the reason, getting them back is a good thing, no?
Has the hoard from Europe hit the market yet?
He who knows he has enough is rich.
I certainly prefer US $20's in any grade to krands etc.
Like white castle, buy em by the sack!
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
$ 39,000,000 face value from one bank
at $20 for each coin
Most of it I am told was ugly....
I wish the premiums for CAC Saints would go down!
It has been nearly a year.
Any updates on this hoard?
I've got this hole at 1921 and I'm not getting any younger.
My Saint Set
Oh my lord. Glad I found this thread. I've been getting an awfully itchy trigger finger on Old Gold lately. Glad I haven't pulled yet. Got to make sure I go for a real worthwhile specimen.... I'm not a millionaire by any means.
Local dealer told me a very large dealer told him that they are stuck with $millions in generic gold (even MS65), that they can't move except at a loss.
This tells me that if the POG stays low that they will eventually have to sell...even at a loss. I've noticed that available supplies of graded MS 64 have recently dwindled and had a feeling that some were holding back inventory in the hopes that prices will rise.
Time will tell.
Wow, will we ever get to the point where $20 Liberties are "common" like a load of Morgans? Excellent ! I Love $20 Liberties and I'd love to have a big bunch of them. So far I only have 2 , the last one obtained around 16 years ago. I'd love to grab about 10 more . To me , a pre 1900 $20 Liberty (MS63 or better) is the greatest mood enhancer going.
I'd love for them to be available at spot - I'd be purchasing a bunch myself.
Only if they are dated 1904 or perhaps 1904-S.
Does anyone know why all this gold is coming to market at once. I was told it has to do with European banking laws, if this is true then it probably has to do with how the coins are valued for reserve purposes. Also if true does anyone have any idea how much more will come to market and over what timeframe.
When pm prices are low they are unpopular, when they are high everyone wants them. Herd mentality. True collector coins will always have a following, and I guess we are it.
RE: "If the premiums [sic] on Saints goes much lower..."
....more people will be able to collect them and expand their hobby interests.
Is it possible the concept of "value" brought about by Bitcoin has affected physical European Vaults full of rotting US Gold? 😄
I can see why those people in New York with the Bags of Morgans decided to stop paying Vault Fees , also. Bitcoin has rearranged Peoples Brains for sure when it comes to " Value".
What the heck are they doing over there?
I'm picturing giant animatronic dung beetles rolling bags around.
Poor little saints
My Saint Set
So, what would a nice MS64 CAC PCGS saint (common) run these days?
Ebay is still, imho, a bit overpriced. My locals don't have any.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Most CAC'ers go for at least PCGS price or $1450 right now in 1924-P, 1927-P or 1928-P
I don't buy CAC coins so someone else may have more informed info.
My Saint Set
The term Notgeld comes to mind..... Peace Roy
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Notgeld (German for "emergency money" or "necessity money") refers to money issued by an institution in a time of economic or political crisis.
Cool...I learned a new word today
My Saint Set
If u can get slabbed $20 gold close to melt best deal around. But will gold go lower?
Set a plan quantity buy all you can. Put them away in bank box, etc.
I don’t take these when doing shows only numismatic material.
CAC price guide for a 1924 PCGS 64 CAC $20 St Gaudens has them trading between $1500 and $1750. The lowest price I could find on a quick search from an actual seller was $1775.
I can't figure out why 1924, 1927 & 1928 MS66 coins are going for about the same as 1923, 1925 & 1926.
I'm going to wait on buying commons for now in MS66.
Maybe there will be a bunch of crossovers hitting the market soon.
My Saint Set
I bought a 1927 PCGS MS66 CAC for $2,450 a few days ago...
Generic Saints in MS64 are $100 over melt.
Don’t know whether to laugh or cry!
He who knows he has enough is rich.
I did not see the value for the price of MS65 then but I do now......
Just how is an American Eagle just as old as a Saint???
CAC price is wholesale right? Is your dealer search for retail?
CAC is to the moon on commons & I don't know why.
You can get a CAC 1920 for the same premium.
The market seems weird right now.
My Saint Set
He means that the gold in both coins was originally created in a supernova explosion or neutron star collision some 8 to 10 billion years ago, not that the extremely more recently minted coins are the exact same age in that form, only that from that perspective, they might as well be, as gold is gold at such low premium to melt.
The Universe is awash in gold, but most of it is relatively difficult for humans to access, currently. Once we start mining the asteroid belt, there ought to be plenty.
For now, lots of saints coming back home from Europe. Perhaps some will be better dates, too, sending them overseas might be why they're heretofore scarce.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
As long as coin Pcgs / NGC slabbed ms63 and higher and nice want one closest to melt CAC or not.
Dealer wholesale prices are pretty close to melt it seems - I'm just in the market for slabbed low MS coins near melt to stack. Anything else is gravy
I enjoy these more than the bullion Eagles. If both are basically melt price I'll go with the Saint every time. Same goes with foreign gold like Sovereigns, Roosters, etc.
Collector, occasional seller
Gold is billions of years old.
Dealer wholesale prices are UNDER melt for 60/61 Saints - unless you mean dealer-to-dealer prices in which case they are about $10-$15 over.
Although, if you think about it, based on fineness, 22kt gold should really trade below melt. Look at Sterling silver vs. 0.999 silver
CAC doesn't CAC gold as readily as it CACs type coins.
One of the shop dealers in Central Illinois tells his walk-in selling customers "of course, sterling silver IS NOT real silver" and he proceeds to offer 30% of scrap. This dealer has done this hundreds of times.
__
Well, 30% is a bit low. But there are refining costs for lower fineness bullion. If you've got 14 kt jewelry, you wouldn't expect to get full gold value to scrap it.
Saying 30% is a bit low is a bit of an understatement
And then if you think More about it, it's the form rather than the alloy, that makes sterling sell at a discount to pure bullion items.
Broken necklaces and bent forks sell for less than melt. 18th century tankards and candlesticks, maybe not
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Yeah i guess I was talking about dealer to dealer networks. Here locally, I can't find any 60/61 saints for anything close to that - even factoring in some cash for the dealer. The premiums are crazy still.