So Called Dollar questions.
jesbroken
Posts: 10,654 ✭✭✭✭✭
Has the market went away for the So Called Dollars? I haven't seen much, if any action on Ebay. I was digging out some IHC's for a local fellow and found this, one of several I have, but by far the nicest. I found one on ebay that was in about XF condition, but that was all. At one time, there were many, many of these SCD's, but not so much now. Just curious. Wish it didn't have the star. 
lol
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
0
Comments
I think Jeff Sheviin is the market maker for these. AFAIK, they are still popular. I collected them in the past and the prices I see today are high! LOL.
What about the "star?"
it seems like it's getting harder to locate nicer, scarcer SC$'s and most collectors aren't willing to divulge where to look. eBay has developed into a listing place for sellers with wishful prices, most often for more common(R-4 and below) and/or low grade medals.
My experience isn't as broad or deep as some here. But I get the feeling that this is a market made by genuine collectors, with little to no interest from typical/average dealers and zero play from flippers and speculators. Consequently, the really good material goes to strong hands where it stays locked down for a long, long time.
Because good pieces seldom emerge, and the more common stuff is easily acquired, the market is difficult to navigate. You can find dozens of 1909-S VDB cents or 1916-D dimes at any moment on eBay. But it can be tough to find one of the really rare SC$s across all venues in a single year.
--Severian the Lame
But it can be tough to find one of the really rare SC$s across all venues in a single year.
this sort of continues what I tried to say, these SC$'s are actually scarce/rare where the two coins mentioned aren't. it can be difficult to look in all places at all times, but there are some issues I have never seen in almost 20 years. I tried to work a "want list" with JS but he freely admitted that some of what I was looking for he had never owned. that speaks to the rarity of some medals.
one thing which works against new collectors expanding things is the way medals are priced. much of what I see at a site like eBay is wishful, a price thrown out which has no basis. I understand that when the 2nd Edition was going to print the publisher required the "Price Guide" that comes with a new book. I said as much at that time, it was a bad thing because it would be the basis of selling prices going forward.
perhaps I end up paying more in a true auction such as Stack's or Heritage but I prefer that format. eBay doesn't seem like an auction venue anymore.
also, your point of the best pieces going back into collections is a good one. a lot of what has sold from 200-date may be gone for15 years+ depending on how old we all are.
Jim, here's a "No Star" for you!!
Great luck, keets. Nice issue. Great looking piece.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
What was the significance of the star? Not near my HK book.
There are two varieties, with and without the star. The variety without a star is rarer.
Here's the text:
http://www.so-calleddollars.com/Events/Louisiana_Purchase_Exposition.html
I wonder if all metals come without the star or only certain ones?
Obv. Conjoined busts l. (Napoleon & Jefferson); above, around • Louisiana • Purchase • Exposition •; below all Official • Souvenir •; beaded border.
Rev. Relief map of U.S. with Louisiana Purchase across that portion representing extent of purchase; above Louisiana Territory / 1803 / 1,000,000 Square Miles / $15,000,000.; below map St. Louis 1904, beaded border.
NOTE: Two varieties known, with and without star on map at St. Louis; variety without star rarer.
HK-299 Silver. 33mm.
HK-299a Gold. Unique.
HK-300 Gold-plated Bronze.
HK-301 Copper.
HK-302 Yellow Bronze.
HK-303 Bronze.
HK-304 Gilt.
I have this Wisconsin with the original packaging.
I'm sure rare to find any with packaging.
Zoins, I have only seen the Gold Plated HK-300 without the star but I believe the yellow bronze may also exist without the star. logically, the Master Die was made without the star(at the Mint) and then it was added to the working dies, either at the Mint or on the Exhibition grounds. perhaps the dies were shipped to the Exhibition hurriedly without the star at its beginning and then the change was made.
Is there a known weight of the various metals. I bought this SCD years ago and it still had the HK-301 sticker on the paper portion of the coin holder. It truly appears to be copper. I have had several BU Conders and Brittanias that were the same color, but never really sure without the weight. Any opinions on this SCD's metal content?
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
BTW, Insider2, the star represented St. Louis, the location of the Territorial Capital in 1804 which was where the Exposition was held.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
The experienced exonumia dealers were saying years ago that the So-Called Dollars were over priced, and that might be true for common pieces. The better ones have always been hard to find if not expensive. I have only collected these pieces because they were political (Bryan Dollars) or connected with fairs. I have not collected them only because they were listed. In the book.
I have not collected SCD's... However, the Louisiana Purchase SCD is very attractive and of historical significance.... I would buy that one. Cheers, RickO
There's still a strong market for the scarcer material.
I would appreciate your opinions as to whether this SCD would be worth having PCGS encapsulate it? Never dealt solidly with SCD's(owned maybe 1/2 dozen or so over many years, but never collected them).
Thanks
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
So-Called Dollars are covered in an appendix of MEGA RED.
Thanks for the info on the star. I never noticed the note in the listing before. I doubt my specimen is the good one as I bought it from an experienced token/medal dealer long ago.
@jesbroken said: "I would appreciate your opinions as to whether this SCD would be worth having PCGS encapsulate it?"
IMO, since it is the better variety and they should put "w/Star" on the label (to let other ignorant folks such as myself know it is special) I vote for certification. The coin has some old cleaning and is not Unc but it may be straight graded.
Dentuck, I checked my copy of 1st edition deluxe edition and nothing. Don't have Mega Red. Maybe a reason to get one, price isn't bad but shipping is. lol
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
**whether this SCD would be worth having PCGS encapsulate **
this is a personal decision. looking at the picture it is difficult to judge the condition of the medal because it is so dark. however, I can see some lighter areas at the high points of both sides. there can be two causes: they were caused by "rub" or they were in contact with a flat surface as the rest of the medal toned darker. I think it is probably the former.
as an AU in Bronze it is probably not valuable enough to justify slabbing, as an MS63-64 probably between $100-$200. if it's Copper it's slightly scarcer and more valuable even if it's an AU. I think it is probably Bronze. you might want to PM jonathanb because he may have weights on these in the various alloys and be able to help with a specific gravity test.
here's the HK-301 that is at PCGS now, the grade should post in a few days.
I'm not aware of any but it would be nice if there was a Wikipedia for SCDs to capture this information.
They were added in the 3rd edition, Mega Red
BHNC #203
I don't have much experience in this field, but my one experience speaks to the demand for high-end rarities. I picked up what was probably the finest example of HK-5. There was no price guide, only a previous HA sale of a lower-grade example several years ago. So I had to set my own price. I threw what I thought to be a very strong number at Jeff, who said I was in the ballpark. Ultimately, the piece sold for a few hundred less than I asked, but it sold quickly. You can find the price under the MS65 column in the new Mega Red Book.
Dealing in Canadian and American coins and historical medals.
"Free back brace when you purchase three or more!"
The 2nd and 3rd editions both feature So-Called Dollars (different ones in each edition). Text, photographs, values in multiple grades, etc. Lots of interesting information, and it was written by Jeff Shevlin in consultation with other experts.
You know me, Dentuck.
"Book 'em Denno."
For the online reference (try link)
As to the market question asked; I don't know. The hobby is intact.
so-calleddollars.com/index.html
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
You da man!
BHNC #203
You just might need a back brace if you got 3 or more of these books.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Prices at the Stack's sale tonight were generally (with a few exceptions) somewhat north of insane, some in the ridiculous range.
If the underbidder of lot 287 wants to contact me, I'd be happy to sell a MS-65 RB and a MS-64 RD -- both higher grades -- combined for the same price that that lot sold for. At that rate I'd still be making 10x what they normally bring.
Wow. A R7 HK-853 at NGC MS64RB for $900! A R7 is 4-12 survivors on the Sheldon Scale. Does that sound right for this piece?
It was HK-853a, struck in 1961 (and correctly noted as such in the listing) rather than 1876. There were 5,000 struck. I consider it a R-2.
The auction you linked to says HK-853 on the insert / auction description and R7 per the screenshot below. Perhaps someone was hoping the HK-853 R7 was correct and the 1961 was incorrect instead of R7 HK-853 being incorrect and 1961 being correct?
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-8ODCO
They can hope or all sorts of things, but the pictures are clear. The date on the slab is accurate. That's a 1961 strike.
Differences between the strikings were discussed in a recent thread.
Too bad the TPG and auction house listed it with a wrong HK number and rarity rating. I was going to call this tuition but the information is just wrong so I don't think tuition is tie right term. Anyone know if the auction house or TPG would make the buyer whole due to this kind of error? Or this an example of buyer beware?
Regarding SCDs, bifurcation and the bay, the situation reminds me of patterns except that patterns go for more. Rare patterns often go for 5 figures on HA while common patterns sit on the bay with hopeful 4 figure prices.
If the underbidder of lot 287 wants to contact me, I'd be happy to sell a MS-65 RB and a MS-64 RD -- both higher grades -- combined for the same price that that lot sold for. At that rate I'd still be making 10x what they normally bring.
this is really rich..........................................you guys are ragging on Stack's about mis-attribution and then you try to link us to lot 297 with a post that says lot 287.
everyone makes mistakes, right??!!?? it is easy with SC$'s so let's not be too harsh.
to agree with jonathanb, I thought prices across the board were high/strong and I lost all but one lot because I got trampled. in the end, the only medal I'll add is lot 290.
Wow that is a strong price auction. Should be some happy sellers.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
You say you agree with jonathanb but he was the one that posted the bold text you quoted and also linked to lot 297 with the 287 description that you are taking issues with. Just wanted to make sure you realize that since there may be some confusion there.
As for the the misattribution issue, we discuss tuition a lot here so I don't think it's too far off to ask if the auction house or TPG will make a situation right in this case. At the end of the day, it seems like a collector may have lost a lot of money due to relying on errors by 2 expert organizations.
Sorry, but I'm a bit confused. Is this coin listed by NGC and Stack's an HK853 or an HK853A. If HK853A then both the auction house and TPG listed the coin wrong and should fall to NGC as the problem not the Auction house alone. At least the Auction House should release the buyer from their auction and go to NGC for corrections. My thought if I understand the issue correctly?.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
The issue is that the SCD is a HK853A but listed incorrectly by the auction house and TPG as HK853. Furthermore, the auction house listed the piece as a R7 when it appears R2 may be more appropriate.
Releasing the buyer from their auction and asking the TPG for a correction seems reasonable to me and would take care of the buyer per my question above.
Zoins, just to set the record straight, I was agreeing with jonathanb about the fact that prices at the auction seemed to be high. nowhere did I agree with him about lot 287 or whatever one he was talking about.
is that clearer for you??
It's listed and slabbed as "(1961) HK-853", which doesn't exist. The choices are "(1876) HK-853" or "(1961) HK-853a". I expect that NGC would call it a mechanical error for the missing "a". I don't like how many things are called mechanical errors, but if anything qualifies it seems to me like this one should. It would be like someone trying to sell a 1908-S VDB Lincoln cent. There's no question that something is wrong with the description.
In my opinion Stack's should let the buyer off the hook since they repeated the error in their listing and they really aren't out any money. On the other hand, I don't have a lot of sympathy for a buyer who ignores the "Buy the coin not the holder" adage.
If the seller spent the sale price before receiving payment in hand, they probably shouldn't have done that.
My opinions anyway.
It's clearer now but it was unclear on your earlier post because you left the first part unnamed and then named in the second part. I wasn't clear that a person you were disagreeing with in the first part of your post was the person you were agreeing with in the second part of your post. I hope you can understand that.
This is a true statement. Many of the SCD collectors I know have very deep pockets and spend a great deal of time enjoying and researching these pieces. There are so many varieties and ways to collect this medals, and the "best of the best" are very hard to come by. Jeff Shevlin organizes collector gathering that I have attended, and they are very interesting and enjoyable. Numismatics tends to be a hobby of "1" at times, which isn't as enjoyable as sharing knowledge and learning about the history of the collectables. That is very interesting and enjoyable in the SCD field in my opinion, similar to parts of numismatics like patterns, commems, and early american coins.
I know this isn't one.I just like to show it
The Bashlow restrikes were done in bronze, goldine, and silver, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that a few trial pieces were made in various medals. The slab on this one says copper, not bronze, so maybe it was a trial piece? That would be consistent w/ R7.
I actually know very little about this series, but over the weekend, I decided to add to my collection the best affordable Continental Dollar I could find. So I learned all about Bashlow! And then I also bought this:
>>>My Collection