May I suggest a podcast called "Revisionist History". Very interesting, much like Paul Harvey's "The Rest of the Story". Yes, history seems to be very fluid, but we still must learn from it.
I need to go back and read this thread from the beginning; however, here are some things to consider that may have already been posted:
The victors write the history.
Since at least the mid 20th Century, there has been a move away from the ideals and beliefs set in our founding documents.
Without an unbiased press to inform us of the "truth" as presented by ALL FACTIONS we are lost.
There have always been groups/persons in this country and around the world who do not like this country and try to divide and tear it down from within. They are succeeding with the help of the uninformed and brainwashed minions. My dear, departed father was one of them.
True most of the time but not always. The Confederacy lost. Stone Mountain and many Confederate statues were funded by the KKK and the United Daughters of the Conferderacy during the Jim Crow era. So if you have money, you can rewrite history, even if you lost.
One question is if the Confederacy can have statues, should other groups that didn't win also have them?
@pmac said: "Every Thanksgiving there are protests in Plymouth with some hotheads desecrating some monuments. It's part of our history and we learn from the hotheads also. Both sides have a story to tell, let the truth be heard."
Protest, both peaceful and not (unfortunately), is part of our history. So is law and order. If I were the mayor in Plymouth, the cops would bust some heads as that type of protest should not be tolerated in a lawful society. Free speech yes, violent protest or desecration no.
Busting the heads of the lawbreakers and then making them clean up their damage with toothbrushes while chained to the monument around the clock until finished seems to fit the crime. That's much better than loosing a hand as practiced by my ancestors!
@Zoins said: "True most of the time but not always. The Confederates lost. Stone Mountain and many Conferderate statues were funded by the KKK and the United Daughters of the Conferderacy during the Jim Crow era. So if you have money, you can rewrite history, even if you lost. One question is if the Confederacy can have statues, should other groups that didn't win also have them?"
You sound very confused. Erecting monuments is not the same as rewriting history in a textbook used to keep the young ignorant!
I'm well aware of the history of Stone Mountain. I'm from the south! South Philadelphia. I'm all for all the statues and monuments from both sides and I don't care where the money comes from or what it stands for within very wide limits. For example, there is a statue of the KKK's founder in Chattanooga, TN. I'm fine with that yet I would not want a statue of Hitler around. Ever visit many of our Civil War battlefields?
The thing that these minions funded and stirred on by enemies of this country have never considered is that our history (good & bad) occurred long before they were born. Everything that came before made us a beacon to the world. Morals and beliefs were different. For example, slave ownership was tolerated.
The "destroyers" are in the minority. If I were President, I would immediately make any monument, building, park, structure, etc. a National Historical Treasure and any one messing with them would be...
I'm all for protest too! Let the minions stand around the monuments and sing protest songs with police protection. Preferably in the rain or snow as then only the real idealists would be singing. LOL!
I see you want to limit rewriting history to textbooks and not monuments. However, I believe others on this thread are talking about monuments.
I also note your original post I was quoting did not limit discussion to textbooks so no need to rewrite history in the subsequent post. Though I will grant you that you may not consider monuments to be history, but I do as many monuments come with plaques and other information describing the historical events around the commemoration.
@Insider2 said:
I need to go back and read this thread from the beginning; however, here are some things to consider that may have already been posted:
I am not a fan of the radical abolitionist, John Brown.
Why?
The man was a terrorist. He was for the right cause, but he used the wrong methods.
His plan was to capture weapons from the Harps Ferry Arsenal and then go up on the hills to conduct guerrilla raids against the southern people. He anticipated that he would have a large number of escaped slaves join him. Since he anticipated that those former slaves would not be familiar with firearms, he planned to arm them with pikes (spears) until they become a better organized force. I somehow doubt that John Brown and his gang would have overly selective in their terrorist activities had they been able to put their plans into motion.
The first person who died in John Brown’s raid was an African-America freeman who worked as a baggage handler at the local railroad station. That speaks to the kind of operation that John Brown ran. He was a violent fanatic.
When I visited Harper’s Ferry years ago, the National Park Service made John Brown into a big hero. I was offended by that, but I didn’t say anything, and I surely would not have gone out and destroyed public property over the issue. He has a place in history, but he was no hero so far as I’m concerned.
People like Fredrick Douglas, who had the same view as Brown, was a hero as a former slave and self-made man. Douglas expressed his views in a civilized manner.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@Zoins said: "I see you want to limit rewriting history to textbooks and not monuments. However, I believe others on this thread are talking about monuments. I also note your post did not limit discussion to textbooks."
Well, I guess they don't understand what rewriting history is EITHER! The only thing a monument does is mark a grave, commemorate something, represent an idea, honor some person, or *decorate the grass**! That does not rewrite history.
There is only one "true" history of things that happened in the past. It is interpreted (right or wrong) by folks based on their knowledge and beliefs. Nevertheless, there is only one truth. In many cases the "truth" is not and never will be known: How did Davy Crocket die? We are free to believe what is factual or not.
We are discussing monuments because of the OP's informative post. We are discussing monuments because a small part of our ignorant citizens, spurred on by agitators is destroying our mutual heritage! As I posted, if I were in charge I could stop this nonsense within one week and the punishment I gave for unlawful protest would be on Pay-Per-View to knock down our National Debt by millions of dollars!
PS I've only read about someone being "Drawn and Quartered." Would love to see it done inches at a time...LOL
studying and learning from our past is quite different than honoring and memorializing what were essentially individuals who committed treason. I would add that anyone who thinks what is happening now is some new phenomenon must have been hiding on an island somewhere. the divides have always been there and the lynchings of blacks in the deep south have never stopped. it is a sad commentary on our society that we haven't reconciled these things in now what is more than 150 years.
understanding the importance of these monuments/statues/persons in our Nation's history is one thing, placing them at the forefront in so many public places is another matter altogether.
How did Davy Crocket die? We are free to believe what is factual or not.
Most of the accounts I’ve read state that the Mexicans executed him after the Alamo was captured.
The Alamo was a prime example of how not to conduct a war. When you massacre defenseless prisoners like that you make them into martyrs which often hardens the resolve of your opponents.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@keets said: "Sstudying and learning from our past is quite different than honoring and memorializing what were essentially individuals who committed treason. I would add that anyone who thinks what is happening now is some new phenomenon must have been hiding on an island somewhere. the divides have always been there and the lynchings of blacks in the deep south have never stopped. it is a sad commentary on our society that we haven't reconciled these things in now what is more than 150 years. Understanding the importance of these monuments/statues/persons in our Nation's history is one thing, placing them at the forefront in so many public places is another matter altogether."
The leaders were the traitors. The average soldier had no slaves and was protecting his part of the country. Lincoln forgave the leaders to unite the country. It's a good bet that there would not have been a trace of a CSA monument or flag if he had not.
Say, you have a scoop! When was the last black lynched in the south?
PS We'll never get out of the past as long as agitators stir up the ignorant!
@7Jaguars said:
My point was that African Americans would not have been, the original lack of sensitivity no doubt a product of the times but still shocking even in retrospect. Let the monuments rest (and languish) in peace.
My fear is that people, who hold your opinion, will be attacking the museums and re-writing the history books after you have gotten the statures taken down. I’ve had the debates with the other side, and there is no limit as to how far they want to go. I wish that we could have rational discussions and compromises, but that’s not possible in the current climate. It’s like mob rule. Whoever sets the agenda for the left announces it, and the rest seem to fall into line in a sense of solidarity.
I saw this coming when I was in college in the late 1960’s and early ‘70s. The radical students who belonged to the SDS (Students for a Democratic Society) had no respect for democracy despite the fact that it was part of the name of their organization. Fortunately I never came into to contact with any Weatherman, who were the truly dangerous part of that movement. Now that those students have had two or three generations to teach or indoctrinate in the schools and colleges, and the result is the divisions that we see now.
As I have stated before, the re-writing of history is one of the early steps in totalitarian rule. It is one of the fundamental steps in controlling the population. If you can re-write the facts, you will be a long way toward controlling the agenda.
It can be hard to have rational discussions when one side has irrational fears of massive attacks on museums and cultural institutions.
And thus the current removal of memorials to white supremacy and racism can only be understood as the re-righting of the Jim Crow rewriting of civil war history.
@7Jaguars said:
My point was that African Americans would not have been, the original lack of sensitivity no doubt a product of the times but still shocking even in retrospect. Let the monuments rest (and languish) in peace.
My fear is that people, who hold your opinion, will be attacking the museums and re-writing the history books after you have gotten the statures taken down. I’ve had the debates with the other side, and there is no limit as to how far they want to go. I wish that we could have rational discussions and compromises, but that’s not possible in the current climate. It’s like mob rule. Whoever sets the agenda for the left announces it, and the rest seem to fall into line in a sense of solidarity.
I saw this coming when I was in college in the late 1960’s and early ‘70s. The radical students who belonged to the SDS (Students for a Democratic Society) had no respect for democracy despite the fact that it was part of the name of their organization. Fortunately I never came into to contact with any Weatherman, who were the truly dangerous part of that movement. Now that those students have had two or three generations to teach or indoctrinate in the schools and colleges, and the result is the divisions that we see now.
As I have stated before, the re-writing of history is one of the early steps in totalitarian rule. It is one of the fundamental steps in controlling the population. If you can re-write the facts, you will be a long way toward controlling the agenda.
It can be hard to have rational discussions when one side has irrational fears of massive attacks on museums and cultural institutions.
And thus the current removal of memorials to white supremacy and racism can only be understood as the re-righting of the Jim Crow rewriting of civil war history.
Well stated
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Aegis3 said: "It can be hard to have rational discussions when one side has irrational fears of massive attacks on museums and cultural institutions. And thus the current removal of memorials to white supremacy and racism can only be understood as the re-righting of the Jim Crow rewriting of civil war history."
Actually, IMO it is a generational thing. I was in college when the SDS was taking over buildings and rioting. It was great fun lobbing water balloons from the roof on to the Commies as they battled the police. One of my fondest memories of college was walking down a completely deserted tree lined street just after sunrise - no parked cars, no people and only the exploded star-like white powder stains on the black top road from the battle.
Sorry, back to my point. I agree with the poster when he said: "It can be hard to have rational discussions when one side has irrational fears of massive attacks on museums and cultural institutions." You see, that fear is not irrational. It is justified as only one side is doing all the tearing down and vandalism. It's not my side. LOL.
The condo association in NJ made me remove the Boot Scraper from my front door because it was shaped like a black cat and a neighbor was offended that I was putting my foot on an animal + she viewed it as a religious symbol for witches!
@7Jaguars said:
My point was that African Americans would not have been, the original lack of sensitivity no doubt a product of the times but still shocking even in retrospect. Let the monuments rest (and languish) in peace.
My fear is that people, who hold your opinion, will be attacking the museums and re-writing the history books after you have gotten the statures taken down. I’ve had the debates with the other side, and there is no limit as to how far they want to go. I wish that we could have rational discussions and compromises, but that’s not possible in the current climate. It’s like mob rule. Whoever sets the agenda for the left announces it, and the rest seem to fall into line in a sense of solidarity.
I saw this coming when I was in college in the late 1960’s and early ‘70s. The radical students who belonged to the SDS (Students for a Democratic Society) had no respect for democracy despite the fact that it was part of the name of their organization. Fortunately I never came into to contact with any Weatherman, who were the truly dangerous part of that movement. Now that those students have had two or three generations to teach or indoctrinate in the schools and colleges, and the result is the divisions that we see now.
As I have stated before, the re-writing of history is one of the early steps in totalitarian rule. It is one of the fundamental steps in controlling the population. If you can re-write the facts, you will be a long way toward controlling the agenda.
It can be hard to have rational discussions when one side has irrational fears of massive attacks on museums and cultural institutions.
And thus the current removal of memorials to white supremacy and racism can only be understood as the re-righting of the Jim Crow rewriting of civil war history.
It will interesting see what your position will be when the radicals call for the closure of the Jefferson Memorial and Monticello. They in the process of setting the groundwork for that.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Don't forget those two slave owners, the progressive, and that Republican on Mt. Rushmore either! I should like to see more modern folks honored that are relevant to our times. For example, Che Guevara did a lot for this country along with Jane Fonda and Michael Jackson. They should not be controversial in the least.
PS Does any member have an image of one of the old Stone Mountain counterfeits. I have the ANA Counterfeit Detection Reprint but would like to see an actual coin. Any for sale? Nothing from China!
Comments
Unfortunately, there are those afoot who would prefer to destroy the history of our country rather than learn from it.
May I suggest a podcast called "Revisionist History". Very interesting, much like Paul Harvey's "The Rest of the Story". Yes, history seems to be very fluid, but we still must learn from it.
I need to go back and read this thread from the beginning; however, here are some things to consider that may have already been posted:
True most of the time but not always. The Confederacy lost. Stone Mountain and many Confederate statues were funded by the KKK and the United Daughters of the Conferderacy during the Jim Crow era. So if you have money, you can rewrite history, even if you lost.
One question is if the Confederacy can have statues, should other groups that didn't win also have them?
@pmac said: "Every Thanksgiving there are protests in Plymouth with some hotheads desecrating some monuments. It's part of our history and we learn from the hotheads also. Both sides have a story to tell, let the truth be heard."
Protest, both peaceful and not (unfortunately), is part of our history. So is law and order. If I were the mayor in Plymouth, the cops would bust some heads as that type of protest should not be tolerated in a lawful society. Free speech yes, violent protest or desecration no.
Busting the heads of the lawbreakers and then making them clean up their damage with toothbrushes while chained to the monument around the clock until finished seems to fit the crime. That's much better than loosing a hand as practiced by my ancestors!
@Zoins said: "True most of the time but not always. The Confederates lost. Stone Mountain and many Conferderate statues were funded by the KKK and the United Daughters of the Conferderacy during the Jim Crow era. So if you have money, you can rewrite history, even if you lost. One question is if the Confederacy can have statues, should other groups that didn't win also have them?"
You sound very confused. Erecting monuments is not the same as rewriting history in a textbook used to keep the young ignorant!
I'm well aware of the history of Stone Mountain. I'm from the south! South Philadelphia. I'm all for all the statues and monuments from both sides and I don't care where the money comes from or what it stands for within very wide limits. For example, there is a statue of the KKK's founder in Chattanooga, TN. I'm fine with that yet I would not want a statue of Hitler around. Ever visit many of our Civil War battlefields?
The thing that these minions funded and stirred on by enemies of this country have never considered is that our history (good & bad) occurred long before they were born. Everything that came before made us a beacon to the world. Morals and beliefs were different. For example, slave ownership was tolerated.
The "destroyers" are in the minority. If I were President, I would immediately make any monument, building, park, structure, etc. a National Historical Treasure and any one messing with them would be...
I'm all for protest too! Let the minions stand around the monuments and sing protest songs with police protection. Preferably in the rain or snow as then only the real idealists would be singing. LOL!
@Insider2 I'm trying to see where you think I'm confused on your point 1.
I'm just saying that people other than the victors can write history too, when there is enough money and resolve.
@Zoins said: "Are you saying the Confederacy won?"
LOL, are you kidding? No they lost. They also erected monuments.
"Or are you saying the KKK and UDC didn't re/write history?"
Please...What history book are you reading?
"I'm just saying losers can write history too, when they have enough money and resolve."
That's correct and they have built monuments.
Here is what I wrote: "You sound very confused. Erecting monuments is not the same as REWRITING HISTORY IN A TEXTBOOK used to keep the young ignorant!
I see you want to limit rewriting history to textbooks and not monuments. However, I believe others on this thread are talking about monuments.
I also note your original post I was quoting did not limit discussion to textbooks so no need to rewrite history in the subsequent post. Though I will grant you that you may not consider monuments to be history, but I do as many monuments come with plaques and other information describing the historical events around the commemoration.
I am not a fan of the radical abolitionist, John Brown.
Why?
The man was a terrorist. He was for the right cause, but he used the wrong methods.
His plan was to capture weapons from the Harps Ferry Arsenal and then go up on the hills to conduct guerrilla raids against the southern people. He anticipated that he would have a large number of escaped slaves join him. Since he anticipated that those former slaves would not be familiar with firearms, he planned to arm them with pikes (spears) until they become a better organized force. I somehow doubt that John Brown and his gang would have overly selective in their terrorist activities had they been able to put their plans into motion.
The first person who died in John Brown’s raid was an African-America freeman who worked as a baggage handler at the local railroad station. That speaks to the kind of operation that John Brown ran. He was a violent fanatic.
When I visited Harper’s Ferry years ago, the National Park Service made John Brown into a big hero. I was offended by that, but I didn’t say anything, and I surely would not have gone out and destroyed public property over the issue. He has a place in history, but he was no hero so far as I’m concerned.
People like Fredrick Douglas, who had the same view as Brown, was a hero as a former slave and self-made man. Douglas expressed his views in a civilized manner.
@Zoins said: "I see you want to limit rewriting history to textbooks and not monuments. However, I believe others on this thread are talking about monuments. I also note your post did not limit discussion to textbooks."
Well, I guess they don't understand what rewriting history is EITHER! The only thing a monument does is mark a grave, commemorate something, represent an idea, honor some person, or *decorate the grass**! That does not rewrite history.
There is only one "true" history of things that happened in the past. It is interpreted (right or wrong) by folks based on their knowledge and beliefs. Nevertheless, there is only one truth. In many cases the "truth" is not and never will be known: How did Davy Crocket die? We are free to believe what is factual or not.
We are discussing monuments because of the OP's informative post. We are discussing monuments because a small part of our ignorant citizens, spurred on by agitators is destroying our mutual heritage! As I posted, if I were in charge I could stop this nonsense within one week and the punishment I gave for unlawful protest would be on Pay-Per-View to knock down our National Debt by millions of dollars!
PS I've only read about someone being "Drawn and Quartered." Would love to see it done inches at a time...LOL
studying and learning from our past is quite different than honoring and memorializing what were essentially individuals who committed treason. I would add that anyone who thinks what is happening now is some new phenomenon must have been hiding on an island somewhere. the divides have always been there and the lynchings of blacks in the deep south have never stopped. it is a sad commentary on our society that we haven't reconciled these things in now what is more than 150 years.
understanding the importance of these monuments/statues/persons in our Nation's history is one thing, placing them at the forefront in so many public places is another matter altogether.
Most of the accounts I’ve read state that the Mexicans executed him after the Alamo was captured.
The Alamo was a prime example of how not to conduct a war. When you massacre defenseless prisoners like that you make them into martyrs which often hardens the resolve of your opponents.
@keets said: "Sstudying and learning from our past is quite different than honoring and memorializing what were essentially individuals who committed treason. I would add that anyone who thinks what is happening now is some new phenomenon must have been hiding on an island somewhere. the divides have always been there and the lynchings of blacks in the deep south have never stopped. it is a sad commentary on our society that we haven't reconciled these things in now what is more than 150 years. Understanding the importance of these monuments/statues/persons in our Nation's history is one thing, placing them at the forefront in so many public places is another matter altogether."
The leaders were the traitors. The average soldier had no slaves and was protecting his part of the country. Lincoln forgave the leaders to unite the country. It's a good bet that there would not have been a trace of a CSA monument or flag if he had not.
Say, you have a scoop! When was the last black lynched in the south?
PS We'll never get out of the past as long as agitators stir up the ignorant!
The leaders were the traitors.
and your point is, what??
The leaders were the traitors.
It can be hard to have rational discussions when one side has irrational fears of massive attacks on museums and cultural institutions.
And thus the current removal of memorials to white supremacy and racism can only be understood as the re-righting of the Jim Crow rewriting of civil war history.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
Well stated
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Aegis3 said: "It can be hard to have rational discussions when one side has irrational fears of massive attacks on museums and cultural institutions. And thus the current removal of memorials to white supremacy and racism can only be understood as the re-righting of the Jim Crow rewriting of civil war history."
Actually, IMO it is a generational thing. I was in college when the SDS was taking over buildings and rioting. It was great fun lobbing water balloons from the roof on to the Commies as they battled the police. One of my fondest memories of college was walking down a completely deserted tree lined street just after sunrise - no parked cars, no people and only the exploded star-like white powder stains on the black top road from the battle.
Sorry, back to my point. I agree with the poster when he said: "It can be hard to have rational discussions when one side has irrational fears of massive attacks on museums and cultural institutions." You see, that fear is not irrational. It is justified as only one side is doing all the tearing down and vandalism. It's not my side. LOL.
LOL, apparently there is a full-fledged leftist "trolling" this thread and hiding behind the little blue "flag."
Here in San Antonio, a school board last nighted voted to re-name my son's high school. Robert E. Lee High School is no longer.
Successful buys on BST board from NotSure, Nankraut, Yorkshireman, Astrorat, Ikeigwin(2x), Bob13, Outhaul, coinbuf, dpvilla, jayPem, Sean1990, TwoKopeiki, bidask, Downtown1974, drddm, nederveit2
The condo association in NJ made me remove the Boot Scraper from my front door because it was shaped like a black cat and a neighbor was offended that I was putting my foot on an animal + she viewed it as a religious symbol for witches!
It will interesting see what your position will be when the radicals call for the closure of the Jefferson Memorial and Monticello. They in the process of setting the groundwork for that.
Don't forget those two slave owners, the progressive, and that Republican on Mt. Rushmore either! I should like to see more modern folks honored that are relevant to our times. For example, Che Guevara did a lot for this country along with Jane Fonda and Michael Jackson. They should not be controversial in the least.
PS Does any member have an image of one of the old Stone Mountain counterfeits. I have the ANA Counterfeit Detection Reprint but would like to see an actual coin. Any for sale? Nothing from China!