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"Stone Mountain" models destroyed
RogerB
Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
Those who collect U.S. classic commemorative halves will enjoy this letter concerning the Stone Mountain, GA "soap opera."
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RogerB
Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
RogerB
Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
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Fascinating--thanks. RogerB, did you read the quote in the two horizontal lines at the bottom of the letter? It's really telling that people of that era (or, at least some of the people of that era) thought that Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee, and "Stonewall" Jackson were "heroes" who would "stand on guard in (?) imperishable glory."
Saw that. Fortunately posterity has revealed them to be mere mortals.
Cool letter...and yes, they will live on forever carved in stone.
Joseph J. Singleton - First Superintendent of the U.S. Branch Mint in Dahlonega Georgia
Findley Ridge Collection
About Findley Ridge
And on the pedestal these words appear:
'My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
-Percy Bysshe Shelley
The letter also illustrates that when commemoratives were involved, the US Mint was just a bystander. The main events were often between treasury and the sponsors.
Collectors often forget that the US Mint is primarily a factory that produces coins and medals.
Thanks for posting this. It was quite a scandal at the time. They really wanted Borglum's hide after his little episode.
On the other hand, if he actually sculpted Stone Mountain, we probably never would have gotten Mt. Rushmore.
But the Hall of Records was never finished ... work stopped when Borglum died.
The monument itself wasn't finished. It was completed by his kid. We're fortunate to have what we have.
Here's the Wikipedia page on John Gutzon de la Mothe Borglum, aka Gutzon Borglum, who started an aborted effort on Stone Mountain and did Mount Rushmore.
Rockin a great cookie duster, wow.
I am continually amazed and the historical documents that come to light.... Of course, when compared to British and some European archives, ours are still quite modern... nonetheless, it is our history, and important. Cheers, RickO
...unless a peaceful protest blows them up.
COINFACTS has some very nice ones pictured
pcgscoinfacts.com/CoinImages.aspx?s=9378
I have a photo of how the site looked in the late 1950s before it was completed circa 1971. I'll have to see if it can find it.
Borglum screwed up with his projections of the work on the mountain which resulted in his abandonment of the project. Of course, he then moved on to Mt. Rushmore.
I went to Stone Mountain years ago and even walked the trail up to the top of the mountain. It is a beautiful place and the carving is amazing.
Also saw the laser and fireworks show they have in the evening at Stone Mountain and will always remember how awesome it was when the lasers outlined the carving and then it became animated w/ the figures riding off to battle while Elvis was singing Dixie... not sure they still do that show, but I'm sure it's on youtube.
The coin is cool too of course:
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Stone Mountain was also honored with a 6-Cent stamp in late 1970. It was one of the first Commemoratives on letters being mailed when I hired in at the then Post Office Department in August, 1970.
Pete
Here is a view of how the Stone Mountain carving looked in the 1960s. The carving that is there now was done with steam cannon devices circa 1970-1.
Long view
Cropped
Current
I hope this 'monument' to history is not destroyed. This current movement (politically inspired) to erase historical mementos, is not good. I am not in favor of re-writing history... History, with all our mistakes and glory, is important. It shows our frailties and our glory and should serve as guidelines for the future. Although I view our current status with despair, I have faith that we will endure. Cheers, RickO
Very cool.
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
Yes, I have not been to the Store Mountain historical complex for a number of years. The last time I had a chance to go it rained. They have moved a number of historical structures into the area, and there is quite a lot to see. Part of the displays have to do with "the old South."
Unfortunately those us who wish to preserve and study history seem to have little voice. If we express out opinions, we are labeled as “racist” even though we can provide coherent responses that in essence agree with the protesters that what happened in the past was wrong. Blotting out the images of the past do not change the past. It only covers up the past, which does not do anyone any good.
The protesters should learn more about the past and show some tolerance for those who disagree with their tactics. If they take their position to its logical conclusion, they will be no better than the people they abhor.
Appears to be a lot of hasty generalizations in some of the latter comments. Monuments, memorials and symbols come and go over time as old ways are replaced with new ones. But each situation is unique deserving of its own thoughtful consideration.
There is something inherently wrong with all of this statue destruction and it seems to me to be difficult to put into words. The fissure that divided this nation was sewn together with what was available to men at the time. Now, you cannot change the history nor the way the nation healed itself back 150 plus years ago.
Today, such a divisive behavior by the North and South would be met with a different remedy over such an abomination of brother against brother, citizen against citizen and no one at the time would expect the future to bring about such division again. The skill set of men today is different and reverting back to racist rants opens a jagged wound that long since should have healed.
Both sides in the display of ignorance are "racist" and many as much as 99% of this country do not behave the way the "NEWS MEDIA" portends the issue to be so big. Why just two weeks ago Pyongpain was going to nuke the world and today? Joe got his pardon from POTUS. Many things are triggers, it's all in the way we respond.
Ironically, I think the statues would stay up longer if they weren't used as a rallying cry by certain groups that claim to want to preserve them.
Mercury, a Roman god (two millennia ago) was on a dime until FDR showed up. Not sure about "each situation is unique deserving of its own thoughtful consideration." Look at the mass of US coins in circulation. Every state has a quarter.
Some of the statues serve as reminders of historical figures who could provide good object lessons to those would be willing to study their biographies.
If Virginia had not left the Union, Robert E. Lee probably would not have fought for the South. In those days people were more loyal their state than to The United States as a country. Virginia seceded and Lee went with her. After the war, Lee called for an end to the fighting. He opposed the continuation of the war using guerrilla tactics, which could have made the reunification of the country much more difficult. He also turned down lucrative job offers for business like insurance companies, but chose instead to take the presidency of small Virginia college, Washington College (now Washington and Lee College) instead.
John Breckenridge was the vice president of The United States from 1857 until 1861. He ran for president as a southern Democrat in 1860. At the beginning of the war he decided to stay with the Union side, but he called for concessions to the South. Later opposed Union actions to bright the South to heal. A warrant was issued for his arrest, and he fled south and joined the Confederacy. There he became a very able field general in the Army. His greatest victory that he won on his own was the Battle of New Market in which he led among others a group of VMI cadets. At the end of the war he became the Confederate secretary of war and was one of the few voices of reason within the Jefferson Davis Government.
Breckenridge fled south when the Confederate Government collapsed. He hid out in the swamps and beaches in Florida and ruined his health in the process. After living in exile for a few years, he returned to the U.S. and lived out the rest of his life practicing law and taking part in various business ventures. He never returned to politics although U.S. Grant asked him at one point to return to the political arena. At one point Breckenridge spoke out against the activities of the KKK.
Here is an 1860 Breckinridge campaign token (Also listed as a CWT) and a ferrotype.
John Breckenridge was a talented man who made some bad choices. As such his life story could offer so guidance to those who are willing to listen, but not that’s how things work today. It’s all “I’m right; you’re wrong and to hell with you if you disagree with me.”
The thing that really concerns me is the desire to obliterate and re-write history. Just today I reading about how Joseph Stalin consigned General Georgy Zhukov, who was greatest Soviet general during World War II, to the dustbin because Stalin was worried that he might receive some adoration that would detract to his dictatorship. Re-writing history like this is a technique that is often employed by totalitarian states. This is why the attitudes of the left concern me.
Some excellent historical info there.
One addendum: Lee is now announcing games for ESPN (but only in PC approved locations).
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Just watched a segment on MSNBC, where trusted elected officials are trying to deface Stone Mountain because of it's racial undertones. Is it me or are we becoming an overly sensitive society? What's next deface Mt. Rushmore, take down the Statue of Liberty, destroy the Jefferson Memorial, change the name of the White House to........... and eliminate the word plantation from the dictionary? It's history, embrace it and learn from it, geeeez! Did I use trusted and elected official in the same sentence?
While the discussion here seems to be mostly about rewriting history, I think the national discussion has changed after Charlottesville to one about promoting and resisting the Nazis, KKK and the alt-right.
Here are two quotes from Mike Signer, the Mayor of Charlottesville, who changed his stance from keeping the statue to removing it after the death of Heather Heyer:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/charlottesville-mayor-changes-position-agrees-confederate-statue-removal-n793931
They are just advertising.
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The Mayor of Charlottesville is a Democrat. The modern Democratic Party sounds like the radical students I knew when I was in undergraduate school in the late 1960s and very early '70s. Many of those people had no respect for democratic principles. The discipline within the Democratic party is incredible. They all seem to say the same thing, with the exception of the Democratic senator, Joe Mansion of West Virginia.
I don’t agree with the what Nazis, the ultright or the KKK have to say, but I also don’t agree with what the extreme left has to say. Both of them are in the business of re-writing history, and both sides are enemies of freedom and democracy, which are key fundamentals to human rights. If you look at the past, both the Nazis and the Communists were in the business of re-writing history during the 20th century. The chilling thing today is that this is happening before our eyes. So far as human rights are concerned, there is no difference between the Nazis and the Communists.
Losing freedom to demagoguery is easy. Getting it back is difficult.
The destruction of historical statuary here in the United States, is no different than the destruction of historical statues and buildings in the Middle East by ISIS. Cheers, RickO
The recommendations I've seen from Lee's descendants and others have been to move them to museums, not destroy them. So, regardless of one's stance, there seems to be a big difference with the destruction by explosives done in the Middle East.
@Zoins.... True, by rational people... however, look at the news, they tear them down and desecrate them... and they are the vocal majority.... Cheers, RickO
I did read about that after a torch lit parade and a car plowed into a crowd....
@Zoins... it was not the only one......Cheers, RickO
I think we'll see more conflict as an underlying issue is increasing competition for scarce resources, with good paying jobs being a top consideration. Not sure what the solution is for that yet but you can see the signs.
Wow! That's all I can say - maybe some statues should not have been put up in the first place. Lee was certainly not all about gallantry - lest readers entertain that notion, he had his place in the Confederate army but let's not forget what was done under his direction to "freemen" on his two Northern incursions. Possibly if some of the posters either were, or had a modicum of empathy for those of African American background, they might have slightly different views. A moderate view is as was written in one post: put his statues in museums willing to receive them.
There is no place in modern times for gigantic Confederate BATTLE flags to be flown alongside the I 95 corridor, it is inflammatory and divisive. Rather saddens me to see this descent.
Well, just Love coins, period.
And all graduates of West Point prior to the Civil War. Lee was welcomed back by the north with open arms after the war.
ISIS is the other group destroying history so it can be rewritten ...
Yep, Lee was Lincoln's first choice to lead the Union Army
M
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
My point was that African Americans would not have been, the original lack of sensitivity no doubt a product of the times but still shocking even in retrospect. Let the monuments rest (and languish) in peace.
Well, just Love coins, period.
They took it a step further in Baltimore and vandalized a very old statue of Christopher Columbus blaming the Europeans for everything that has happened later!
Every Thanksgiving there are protests in Plymouth with some hotheads desecrating some monuments. It's part of our history and we learn from the hotheads also. Both sides have a story to tell, let the truth be heard.
In addition to Columbus, they are coming for Teddy Roosevelt and George Washington too. A James Earle Fraser statue of TR has even been targeted by a removal campaign.
The recent Bannon quotes are interesting. I wonder how much of the unrest is being architected and engineered?
The deep divides that are forming in our country, seemingly caused partially by our 2 party system, are not promising.
My fear is that people, who hold your opinion, will be attacking the museums and re-writing the history books after you have gotten the statures taken down. I’ve had the debates with the other side, and there is no limit as to how far they want to go. I wish that we could have rational discussions and compromises, but that’s not possible in the current climate. It’s like mob rule. Whoever sets the agenda for the left announces it, and the rest seem to fall into line in a sense of solidarity.
I saw this coming when I was in college in the late 1960’s and early ‘70s. The radical students who belonged to the SDS (Students for a Democratic Society) had no respect for democracy despite the fact that it was part of the name of their organization. Fortunately I never came into to contact with any Weatherman, who were the truly dangerous part of that movement. Now that those students have had two or three generations to teach or indoctrinate in the schools and colleges, and the result is the divisions that we see now.
As I have stated before, the re-writing of history is one of the early steps in totalitarian rule. It is one of the fundamental steps in controlling the population. If you can re-write the facts, you will be a long way toward controlling the agenda.
The interesting thing is that this is being claimed on both sides. In addition to history, science is being targeted too.
How many here remember the 2 party system in Orwell's 1984?
Newsflash: the history books are rewritten all the time. I am absolutely a student of history & many revisions have been made over time - what was covered up when we had history in 5th grade? Well, Lee was glorified and they never did manage to get around to the shameful bits that had already been covered up - perhaps a bit of balance over time is not a bad thing.
Or maybe next to Stone Mountain, they could erect a statue to William T. Sherman? No, I'm not suggesting that but it was a part of our collective National Heritage & some could argue that it was the triumvirate of Grant, Sherman and Farragut that preserved the Union (assuming that was a good thing).
Anyway, not the forum for debating history I suppose.
Well, just Love coins, period.
"Your history lesson for the day.Robert E Lee was married to George Washington's granddaughter. He worked with Grant during the Mexican-American war and became a decorated war hero defending this country He believed slavery was a great evil and his wife broke the law by teaching slaves to read and write. After the civil war he worked with Andrew Johnson's program of reconstruction. He became very popular with the northern states and the Barracks at West Point were named in his honor in 1962. He was a great man who served this country his entire life in some form or other. His memorial is now being called a blight. No American military veteran should be treated as such. People keep yelling, "You can't change history." Sadly you can. This is no better than book burnings. ISIS tried rewriting history by destroying historical artifacts. Is that really who we want to emulate?
As they tear down this "blight" keep these few historical facts in your mind. No military veteran and highly decorated war hero should ever be treated as such. This is not Iraq and that is not a statue of Sadam.
IN ADDITION:: Lee was also very torn about the prospect of the South leaving the Union. His wifes grandfather George Washington was a huge influence on him. He believed that ultimately, states rights trumped the federal government and chose to lead the Southern army. His estate, Arlington, near Washington DC was his home and while away fighting the war, the federal government demanded that Lee himself pay his taxes in person. He sent his wife but the money was not accepted from a woman. When he could not pay the taxes, the government began burying dead Union soldiers on his land. The government is still burying people there today. It is now called Arlington National Cemetery. DO THEY WANT TO TEAR THAT UP ALSO ??"
BINGO !!!!!