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Fake Trade Dollar
sellitstore
Posts: 3,102 ✭✭✭✭✭
Did you know that PCGS couldn't determine if this coin is a fake or not?
I'm not familiar with the "We don't know" holder, and it appears to be invisible, too.
https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/1876-S-Trade-Dollar-AU/37561685/LotDetail.asp?lid=37561685
Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
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Do you believe that PCGS really could not determine authenticity on this TD? Sounds like literary license. Ask them for a photo of the coin's bodybag.
bob
Good for the TPGS!
Counterfeits are getting really deceptive. When their original surface is altered by cleaning or corrosion the task becomes almost impossible. Better for PCGS to say we cannot decide than to call a genuine coin bad or a counterfeit genuine.
I'll suggest you might send it to ICG for another opinion. One of their authenticators has a 3 foot long file with just diagnostics on Trade dollars - I've seen it.
Don't get your hopes up though. If PCGS authenticators could not decide, probably no one else can!!
They say "As noted on the holder." but I don't see the holder.
Unfortunately the TPGs have been burned by these junk pieces with altered services. I don't blame them if they don't want to stick their necks out. Given that it takes a die variety expert to catch some of this trash is better to be safe than sorry.
Suuuuure.........
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
@BillJones said: "Unfortunately the TPGs have been burned by these junk pieces with altered [surfaces]. I don't blame them if they don't want to stick their necks out. Given that it takes a die variety expert to catch some of this trash is better to be safe than sorry."
Exactly! Unfortunately, knowing the die varieties of these coins is entirely useless to catch anything remotely deceptive.* Long ago, the deceptive fakes made with transfer dies were able to copy all the different genuine hub combinations. Most of these coins are now detected by repeating defects. Scrub a coin up and these may disappear or be hard to confirm. Magnets don't work either! LOL.
New eBay?
That is not necessarily true. One of the 1803 half cent fakes that made into a holder was outed because the counterfeiter had modified his dies in a way that diminished a characteristic of the die variety. The fact that that spot on the reverse was weak give the fake away.
Earlier there was Spiked Chin fake that was posted here. The trouble is given the “grade” of the thing, the spike was much smaller than it should have been. The spike was also paired with the wrong reverse die. The die differences are subtle, but a knowledge of die varieties is one way to catch the fake.
@BillJones said: "That is not necessarily true. One of the 1803 half cent fakes that made into a holder was outed because the counterfeiter had modified his dies in a way that diminished a characteristic of the die variety. The fact that that spot on the reverse was weak give the fake away. Earlier there was Spiked Chin fake that was posted here. The trouble is given the “grade” of the thing, the spike was much smaller than it should have been. The spike was also paired with the wrong reverse die. The die differences are subtle, but a knowledge of die varieties is one way to catch the fake."
Actually what I posted is 100% true.
The two examples you have provided have exactly noting to do with the deceptive T$1s(except they too are very deceptive fakes). AFAIK, while both these half cents passed the TPGS's until they were detected by copper specialists, the counterfeit dies did not EXACTLY MATCH the genuine specimens. Your post explains this fact and in the one example, pairing a wrong reverse is a stupid mistake that will be easily corrected the next time.
From what I've heard/seen, the "good" counterfeit Trade dollars look just as they should UNTIL one gets down to the micro level and even then they are extremely deceptive and often are given a "No Decision."
I didn't see a holder, either. That's why I referenced it as "invisible" and dismissed the seller's claim of a "no decision" holder.
Do PCGS often say "We don't know" rather than "questionable authenticity" when they are rejecting a fake?
What? Another fake Trade Dollar?
Just saw this thread. This was my coin which was consigned to this auctioneer. I'm not sure what became of the pcgs holder but it truly did come back saying something like: "authenticity can not be determined." I may have re-holdered it. Then I provided the description used by the auctioneer on proxibid. When I bought it, I had exactly the same reaction as pcgs ultimately did and submitted it as a 50/50 shot at being counterfeit.
The coin has some funky rough fields that almost look like it wasn't struck under enough pressure or with proper die spacing in order to yield the usual smooth fields. As I knew I wanted to sell it, but wanted an authority to weigh-in on it, it was submitted. I totally understand pcgs being unwilling to stick their neck out. But I was hoping for a definite thumbs up or down.
By the way, this auctioneer runs a 100% upstanding business. They may make an error of omission but never of commission.
Grading Instructors usually refer to those "funky fields" as either "etched" or "corroded."
I have seen Trade Dollars come back from PCGS with "Authenticity Cannot be Determined" or some such wording. It happens.
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
@Veep .... Thanks for the information.... when I did not see a refernced 'holder', I also thought it was a shady offering. Just shows that minor things can cast a bad light on a legit offering...I say legit, because the question of authenticity was stated.....The fakes are really getting good, and that is scary.... to me especially since I like Trade Dollars...but it is happening in all areas now... with the possible exceptions of zincolns....Cheers, RickO