I have a request. Since I've received over 1K "disagrees," I don't wish any other member here to even come close to my exceptional achievement. Therefore, I wish you would at the least abandon what appears to be a "personal" thing going on with the disagree button in this thread without a comment as to why you disagree. Otherwise, it looks like - well you should know . Thanks?
PS I certainly don't mind if you confine them to my posts.
I don't see an issue here. I've cracked details NGC coins that straight graded at PCGS, and stickered. They were nice. The OG grade was wrong. So what's the problem? We all know grading is subjective. What might be details to an Anacs grader might be PQ to PCGS and CAC.
Despite all of the (valid) discussions about "Grade", and "damage" and "TPG's" and "CAC"....
I still think the most important question is, "Assuming you were in the market for an AU-50 1873 Dollar (or similar date for type), would YOU buy THIS coin?"
Ignoring the grading service and CAC amenities.....I think there are plenty of reasons for us to pass on it.
That coin is far from a piece of junk. AU50 bid is $650 and most dealers I know myself included would gladly buy it at 10% back of bid even it todays less than wonderful market. Do i love it as an AU50 from the pics? No, but it may look better in hand. If it looks just like Bills photo would I want to sell it to one of my customers? Again no but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be an easy wholesale sale at the next Long Beach or Baltimore for a quick $50 profit. Are PCGS or CAC perfect? No, and TDN has certainly weighed in on gradeflation and its effects on his own set, but like democracy they're better than all the other alternatives!
PCGS has graded millions of coins and CAC has certainly looked at hundreds of thousands whether they stickered or not. With that kind of quantity there are going to be some mistakes or marginal calls just like every other aspect of life. The good news is both those companies provide pretty strong guarantees in case you bought said coin and didn't agree with the grade, which is way better than things were before in the 'good old days'
buying Rhode Island Nationals please email, PM or call 401-295-3000
@mercurydimeguy said:
I don't see an issue here. I've cracked details NGC coins that straight graded at PCGS, and stickered. They were nice. The OG grade was wrong. So what's the problem? We all know grading is subjective. What might be details to an Anacs grader might be PQ to PCGS and CAC.
Your reply is a bit of an evasion. The problem, of course, is there might be a $500 price difference between this coin in a details holder and a the same coin straight graded with a green bean.
@mercurydimeguy said:
I don't see an issue here. I've cracked details NGC coins that straight graded at PCGS, and stickered. They were nice. The OG grade was wrong. So what's the problem? We all know grading is subjective. What might be details to an Anacs grader might be PQ to PCGS and CAC.
Your reply is a bit of an evasion. The problem, of course, is there might be a $500 price difference between this coin in a details holder and a the same coin straight graded with a green bean.
Arbitrage is what keeps the coin business going. If there was no risk/reward people would not be in the coin business. If I see a coin that i think is nice I ask a price. If that price works for me I buy it. If that coin later has different plastic and a sticker I will ask a price. At that point if someone buys it, whatever they pay is what it's worth. This is how markets work. It's no different than flipping houses, which happens 24x7x365.
@mercurydimeguy said:
I don't see an issue here. I've cracked details NGC coins that straight graded at PCGS, and stickered. They were nice. The OG grade was wrong. So what's the problem? We all know grading is subjective. What might be details to an Anacs grader might be PQ to PCGS and CAC.
Your reply is a bit of an evasion. The problem, of course, is there might be a $500 price difference between this coin in a details holder and a the same coin straight graded with a green bean.
Arbitrage is what keeps the coin business going. If there was no risk/reward people would not be in the coin business. If I see a coin that i think is nice I ask a price. If that price works for me I buy it. If that coin later has different plastic and a sticker I will ask a price. At that point if someone buys it, whatever they pay is what it's worth. This is how markets work. It's no different than flipping houses, which happens 24x7x365.
More evasion. You have to have houses to live in, coins are not generally defined as necessities. You compare apples and oranges to make a poor and not especially convincing argument. IMHO, arbitrage doesn't describe what coin dealers do either.
In the present plastic, somebody is going to make an unfortunate and costly blunder.
Arbitrage is what keeps the coin business going. If there was no risk/reward people would not be in the coin business.
I have to say, I don't think arbitrage is the right word for what generally occurs in the coin business. In pure arbitrage, you're dealing with an asset that's known to be identical no matter what market it's trading in.
@afford said:
One of the reasons that I love CAC and usually submit all my important coins to them is because of their guarantee. If they make a mistake on a coin they will buy it thereby minimizing any major loss on the owner's behalf. That is what I call phenomenal coin insurance. Does any other company do that in the coin business?
No they don't.
Alan is right, nobody is perfect but with the watering down of the PCGS and NGC warranty to almost nothing for collectors, CAC offers about the best one can hope for interms of insurance.
I would also add that AU50 has been used and a "yah but" grade for about 20 years. AU details but an issue or an classic xf coin surfaces and look but with AU meat. Why can't CAC agree with that?
That being said, we all have cracked out straight graded PCGS, NGC, ANACS coins and later received details grades on them. In can going either way depending on the moments. But it doesn't matter in the end, what does matter is what the current caretakers believes since it is he who has the coin in hand. If the OP believes the coin should be back in the ANACS Details grad holder for complete accuracy then so be it, he has it in hand and all we have are photographs and we all know how photographs don't tell the complete story.
The most striking example of super-conservatively graded ANACS coin I ever ran across was a capped bust $5 gold with the old ANACS paper cert graded XF - planchet flaw. The coin had full booming mint luster, zero rub, and a nice original appeal. Yeah, there was a small lamination/crack coming down Liberty's face. Without that, I'd have figured the coin as a 63/64. It came back from PCGS as MS62...which was accurate imo. There can be huge differences between services at times.
Comments
@BillJones
I have a request. Since I've received over 1K "disagrees," I don't wish any other member here to even come close to my exceptional achievement. Therefore, I wish you would at the least abandon what appears to be a "personal" thing going on with the disagree button in this thread without a comment as to why you disagree. Otherwise, it looks like - well you should know . Thanks?
PS I certainly don't mind if you confine them to my posts.
Wow, over 1,700 'disagrees'. Wow.
I don't see an issue here. I've cracked details NGC coins that straight graded at PCGS, and stickered. They were nice. The OG grade was wrong. So what's the problem? We all know grading is subjective. What might be details to an Anacs grader might be PQ to PCGS and CAC.
Despite all of the (valid) discussions about "Grade", and "damage" and "TPG's" and "CAC"....
I still think the most important question is, "Assuming you were in the market for an AU-50 1873 Dollar (or similar date for type), would YOU buy THIS coin?"
Ignoring the grading service and CAC amenities.....I think there are plenty of reasons for us to pass on it.
That coin is far from a piece of junk. AU50 bid is $650 and most dealers I know myself included would gladly buy it at 10% back of bid even it todays less than wonderful market. Do i love it as an AU50 from the pics? No, but it may look better in hand. If it looks just like Bills photo would I want to sell it to one of my customers? Again no but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be an easy wholesale sale at the next Long Beach or Baltimore for a quick $50 profit. Are PCGS or CAC perfect? No, and TDN has certainly weighed in on gradeflation and its effects on his own set, but like democracy they're better than all the other alternatives!
PCGS has graded millions of coins and CAC has certainly looked at hundreds of thousands whether they stickered or not. With that kind of quantity there are going to be some mistakes or marginal calls just like every other aspect of life. The good news is both those companies provide pretty strong guarantees in case you bought said coin and didn't agree with the grade, which is way better than things were before in the 'good old days'
Your reply is a bit of an evasion. The problem, of course, is there might be a $500 price difference between this coin in a details holder and a the same coin straight graded with a green bean.
Arbitrage is what keeps the coin business going. If there was no risk/reward people would not be in the coin business. If I see a coin that i think is nice I ask a price. If that price works for me I buy it. If that coin later has different plastic and a sticker I will ask a price. At that point if someone buys it, whatever they pay is what it's worth. This is how markets work. It's no different than flipping houses, which happens 24x7x365.
More evasion. You have to have houses to live in, coins are not generally defined as necessities. You compare apples and oranges to make a poor and not especially convincing argument. IMHO, arbitrage doesn't describe what coin dealers do either.
In the present plastic, somebody is going to make an unfortunate and costly blunder.
I have to say, I don't think arbitrage is the right word for what generally occurs in the coin business. In pure arbitrage, you're dealing with an asset that's known to be identical no matter what market it's trading in.
The first picture I thought 45 details but the second looked 50 but still details...
I am still missing the point of the thread. A coin was in an Anacs details holder and is now a PCGS CAC holder. So what?
Someone get a You Suck?
I'm still wondering what's going on with the holder in the OP.
Overall, I think it's an educational thread.
XF45 by my standards, commercial AU50
Alan is right, nobody is perfect but with the watering down of the PCGS and NGC warranty to almost nothing for collectors, CAC offers about the best one can hope for interms of insurance.
I would also add that AU50 has been used and a "yah but" grade for about 20 years. AU details but an issue or an classic xf coin surfaces and look but with AU meat. Why can't CAC agree with that?
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
The most striking example of super-conservatively graded ANACS coin I ever ran across was a capped bust $5 gold with the old ANACS paper cert graded XF - planchet flaw. The coin had full booming mint luster, zero rub, and a nice original appeal. Yeah, there was a small lamination/crack coming down Liberty's face. Without that, I'd have figured the coin as a 63/64. It came back from PCGS as MS62...which was accurate imo. There can be huge differences between services at times.
@roadrunner has stated this obvious FACT very nicely: "There can be huge differences between services at times."
I shall add that IMHO "at times" is mostly measured in years since graded the first time.