@roadrunner said:
It's odd. As buyer's fees have increased from 10% to 17.5% over the years, I netted more from my consignments....and when buying....saw no effect of prices.
Odd, to be sure. But you have to admit that CAN'T be true in the aggregate. Heritage doesn't raise buyer's fees so they can lose more money!
SOMEONE is getting less, so that the auction houses can get more.....
For those good at math Legend is keeping their buyers fee's at 17.5% for their Regency Auctions. I believe they are at 10% for their "monthly" auctions.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Gee whiz !! It sure looks like it's getting too expensive a "hobby" to engage in. Let's see a coin lists (all knowledge of pricing known) for $1000 quick bid $830 and you get it for $1000. Now, what have you done? You have driven the price of the coin down to $830.sounds like another expense to me. If I look at a PR I really don't care about the 20% charge, I eliminate it from my offer or I consider my downside in buying it. Honestly, I think the Coin market is trashed in too many ways since TPGs can't hold up without stickers and Auction companies can't split the commission between buyer and seller. Although, maybe we can consign for free and realize $830 on a $1000 coin! great ! Looks like another hit in the collectors pocketbook.
I have had two auction companies offer me 0% commission and 50% of estimated price realized, in advance, if I will consign.
Maybe, I will give it another 20 years before I sell anything. The risk is all the shenanigans that goes on in between time. My god "the opportunity costs" I'll get back after I figure that out.
@logger7 said:
Higher transaction costs in auctions, etc. just like taxes, slow down and discourage liquidity of rare collectibles.
Very good post. 20 years of internet coin trading and liquidity has receded.
Nonsense! if anything spreads have tightened and collectors liquidity options have grown exponentially with access to specialty dealers, eBay, great collections, heritage. Also you don't have to walk the floor or put an add in coin world if a small dealer. The Internet has revolutionized collectible transactions, I am not sure what you're talking about.
@logger7 said:
Higher transaction costs in auctions, etc. just like taxes, slow down and discourage liquidity of rare collectibles.
Very good post. 20 years of internet coin trading and liquidity has receded.
Nonsense! if anything spreads have tightened and collectors liquidity options have grown exponentially with access to specialty dealers, eBay, great collections, heritage. Also you don't have to walk the floor or put an add in coin world if a small dealer. The Internet has revolutionized collectible transactions, I am not sure what you're talking about.
Sorry that you misunderstood. My point was that liquidity was greater in the earlier days of the net. I got in in late 2000 and could flip a coin on Ebay for 4.7%. Today it is 8.5-10% plus the cost of the store. Heritage had a 15% sellers fee at the time and CC's were welcome up to $10,000 now the fee is 20% and the cc cap is $2500-$4000.
Alternatives to HA and the other 20% plus shipping, etc. costs are looking a lot better now. With ebay at 8.5% plus shipping costs for sellers, BST transactions limited to whatever buyers and sellers want to do transactions at, sometimes just 3% paypal plus shipping, private treaty sales are going to increase. With the cac sticker the buyer can know what their downside risk is in the short term. Upside potential can be significant with private treaty purchases of cac or older holder high end coins, you don't have to fight over rare coins with other HA bidders.
@Soldi said:
....and Auction companies can't split the commission between buyer and seller. Although, maybe we can consign for free and realize $830 on a $1000 coin! great ! Looks like another hit in the collectors pocketbook.
I have had two auction companies offer me 0% commission and 50% of estimated price realized, in advance, if I will consign.
Auction companies don't split up any commissions to the buyers. The seller negotiates for some % of hammer (anything from -10% of hammer to +15% above hammer). That's the commission in a nut shell. Anything the buyer pitches in is either from poor math, inattention, or being unschooled on such things.
A "0% commission" means nothing without a reference. Is that 0% commission to hammer price or the final realized priced? Huge difference. I suspect those companies offering you "0% commission" are referencing to hammer. So you net 100/120....or 83.3%. That's a pretty weak offer, and an easy one to make for decent material. If your coin's winning bid at auction is $833...that's what YOU net on the consignor's invoice....83.3% The auction house keeps $167....or 16.7%. The buyer still pays $1,000 which is usually FMV. No fees are incurred by the buyer other than a shell game on the 20% so-called "buyer's" fee.
Cross off heritage as a place I would ever sell my coins (taking too much meat off the bones.)
This is, however, great news for GreatCollections.
That's a great alternative for a lot of coins. It's a no frills low marketing venue. No lot descriptions. There is also ANOTHER great alternative for coins valued $2500 and up ( not set in stone). The buyers commission is 17.5% but as seller youu can get great terms and a GREAT piece of the action. A better spread then Great Collections. They also have the best auction catalog mailed to serous bidders, great photography and marketing.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Cross off heritage as a place I would ever sell my coins (taking too much meat off the bones.)
This is, however, great news for GreatCollections.
That's a great alternative for a lot of coins. It's a no frills low marketing venue. No lot descriptions. There is also ANOTHER great alternative for coins valued $2500 and up ( not set in stone). The buyers commission is 17.5% but as seller youu can get great terms and a GREAT piece of the action. The spread was better then Great Collections. They also have the best auction catalog mailed to serous bidders, great photography and marketing.
mark
No doubt heritage does a great job. But I can't excuse that much of a percentage. If they need to keep raising their "take" then something is wrong.
@JBatDavidLawrence said:
I'm not sure that any of the major dealers in the hobby were surprised by this. When the market slows down and consignments are harder to come by, you have to raise your margins, even if just half of a percent. It's not an easy business!
Unfortunately, it surely doesn't make things easier as a buyer (even though 20% is easier to figure than 17.5%).
Now for the self-promotion, this is exactly why we removed a buyer's fee and shipping charges years ago. It simply adds transparency and makes the process easier to understand, from a buyer's standpoint...
In one hand its easier your way. But you guys have hidden bidders and 9 out of 10 times, the the house bids on the lots when its going under current market price. If you guys had transparent bidding, more folks will come to your auctions.
@REALGATOR said:
Heritage is a major player on the world auction stage, and our BP rates will now be competitive with the rest of the world's key auctioneers.
I got this email too... How dare they insult us by saying to be competitive they are raising BP? What does it mean?
Cross off heritage as a place I would ever sell my coins (taking too much meat off the bones.)
This is, however, great news for GreatCollections.
That's a great alternative for a lot of coins. It's a no frills low marketing venue. No lot descriptions. There is also ANOTHER great alternative for coins valued $2500 and up ( not set in stone). The buyers commission is 17.5% but as seller youu can get great terms and a GREAT piece of the action. The spread was better then Great Collections. They also have the best auction catalog mailed to serous bidders, great photography and marketing.
mark
No doubt heritage does a great job. But I can't excuse that much of a percentage. If they need to keep raising their "take" then something is wrong.
I wasn't speaking to Heritage and I'm not overwhelmed by them.
As far as raising their rate----- coin auction commissions lag all almost all other auction types that I'm aware of. It was eventually going to happen. I think consignments are down and it's a sign of the times. Not as much greed IMHO as it is shrinking consignments. I do hear you though and understand the angst some are showing
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@JBatDavidLawrence said:
I'm not sure that any of the major dealers in the hobby were surprised by this. When the market slows down and consignments are harder to come by, you have to raise your margins, even if just half of a percent. It's not an easy business!
Unfortunately, it surely doesn't make things easier as a buyer (even though 20% is easier to figure than 17.5%).
Now for the self-promotion, this is exactly why we removed a buyer's fee and shipping charges years ago. It simply adds transparency and makes the process easier to understand, from a buyer's standpoint...
In one hand its easier your way. But you guys have hidden bidders and 9 out of 10 times, the the house bids on the lots when its going under current market price. If you guys had transparent bidding, more folks will come to your auctions.
Heritage also has hidden bidders AND bids on material in their own auctions. Not following your point here.
-Brandon -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins] -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Heritage also has hidden bidders AND bids on material in their own auctions. Not following your point here.
Very true. I've had 4 and 5 figure coins "sell" through Heritage auction for prices I considered low. Then a day or two later the coins show up in their dealer wholesale list, with one $12k coin marked up 100%. Why make 17.5% when you can make 100%. Live and learn, but IMO they are no joy to deal with.
@logger7 said:
Higher transaction costs in auctions, etc. just like taxes, slow down and discourage liquidity of rare collectibles.
I agree. Auction houses can only get away with price gouging if consignors and bidders let them get away with it. Let consignors and bidders walk away for a couple of months and you would see them go the other direction.
@JBatDavidLawrence said:
I'm not sure that any of the major dealers in the hobby were surprised by this. When the market slows down and consignments are harder to come by, you have to raise your margins, even if just half of a percent. It's not an easy business!
Unfortunately, it surely doesn't make things easier as a buyer (even though 20% is easier to figure than 17.5%).
Now for the self-promotion, this is exactly why we removed a buyer's fee and shipping charges years ago. It simply adds transparency and makes the process easier to understand, from a buyer's standpoint...
In one hand its easier your way. But you guys have hidden bidders and 9 out of 10 times, the the house bids on the lots when its going under current market price. If you guys had transparent bidding, more folks will come to your auctions.
Heritage also has hidden bidders AND bids on material in their own auctions. Not following your point here.
Heritage will also place coins it owns into its own auctions, and I would assume it bids on those too given that some of the auction coins end up on Heritage's eBay page. It is laughable that someone would imply that Heritage is transparent (not you brg5658).
A one hundred percent mark up !!! Whoa doggie that's even worse than that idiot Soldi who "said dealers need to make 50%"
Bidding on own lots is called "shilling" and is legal in many states.
Most if not all "auctions" are called "Sales" for a reason, that being they are not auctions.
Want an auction? Try the government seizure auctions you might get lucky and win perhaps a bargain.
Never buy a coin at auction that you can purchase just as easily from a dealer.
Hate to see this, but I'll just bid accordingly. Not a show stopper for me. I know HA is the 800lb gorilla, but I really like them, especially their images. I've purchased so many nice coins from them over the years.
I will also say that this makes Great Collections look even better. I'm seeing more and more interesting coins on their site, at least in my area of interest. I hope they do well. Love competition.
Dave
Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
@JBatDavidLawrence said:
I'm not sure that any of the major dealers in the hobby were surprised by this. When the market slows down and consignments are harder to come by, you have to raise your margins, even if just half of a percent. It's not an easy business!
Unfortunately, it surely doesn't make things easier as a buyer (even though 20% is easier to figure than 17.5%).
Now for the self-promotion, this is exactly why we removed a buyer's fee and shipping charges years ago. It simply adds transparency and makes the process easier to understand, from a buyer's standpoint...
In one hand its easier your way. But you guys have hidden bidders and 9 out of 10 times, the the house bids on the lots when its going under current market price. If you guys had transparent bidding, more folks will come to your auctions.
Heritage also has hidden bidders AND bids on material in their own auctions. Not following your point here.
Heritage will also place coins it owns into its own auctions, and I would assume it bids on those too given that some of the auction coins end up on Heritage's eBay page. It is laughable that someone would imply that Heritage is transparent (not you brg5658).
Ha.com is not transparent either. I opend a thread in the NGC forums (!) About their non transparency and housebidding which is not fair to buyers and also artificially fixes prices even when no buyers exist.
I was scolded and scoffed by Mark Feld in the forums. I don't know if that member is here, but in NGC forums this members actively is harsh on lot of people/posts.
BTW the member says "Mark Feld of Heritage Auctions"
@JBatDavidLawrence said:
I'm not sure that any of the major dealers in the hobby were surprised by this. When the market slows down and consignments are harder to come by, you have to raise your margins, even if just half of a percent. It's not an easy business!
Unfortunately, it surely doesn't make things easier as a buyer (even though 20% is easier to figure than 17.5%).
Now for the self-promotion, this is exactly why we removed a buyer's fee and shipping charges years ago. It simply adds transparency and makes the process easier to understand, from a buyer's standpoint...
In one hand its easier your way. But you guys have hidden bidders and 9 out of 10 times, the the house bids on the lots when its going under current market price. If you guys had transparent bidding, more folks will come to your auctions.
Heritage also has hidden bidders AND bids on material in their own auctions. Not following your point here.
Heritage will also place coins it owns into its own auctions, and I would assume it bids on those too given that some of the auction coins end up on Heritage's eBay page. It is laughable that someone would imply that Heritage is transparent (not you brg5658).
Ha.com is not transparent either. I opend a thread in the NGC forums (!) About their non transparency and housebidding which is not fair to buyers and also artificially fixes prices even when no buyers exist.
I was scolded and scoffed by Mark Feld in the forums. I don't know if that member is here, but in NGC forums this members actively is harsh on lot of people/posts.
BTW the member says "Mark Feld of Heritage Auctions"
That doesn't sound like Mark. It must have been in the phrasing. What they do is legal; I just think it happens to be unfair and creates a questionable system of pricing data that may or may not reflect reality.
I'm a small fry and stay under $700 on most coins and once in awhile $1500 plus on one I bug about but jeemny cricket its a pain for me to buy coins from them. It irritates and confuses me trying to learn the ropes with them. Can I say this? "they bite" I sold on the outfit I use out of L.A. the workingman friend "GrrrrrrrrtCollections!".
Attempted the Heritage thing and I fell flat, just gave up.
@Boosibri said:
I do wonder where the tipping point is...25%, 30%?
That's an interesting question. In the following thread, it was claimed that 100% wouldn't be a problem because it's easy to divide by 2. Multiplying/dividing by 2 is even easier than 20%.
Just won 2 coins out of the previous Sunday auction (@17.5%) for less than my max bids. How the increase will affect my buying is yet to be seen. My max bids for the last two coins I won would have been less factoring in the 20%. I assume I would have still won them, I just don't know what the 20% would have done to my final bill. It may be slightly higher but it may also be the same or lower as other bidders adjust their bids accordingly. I do not think this is a good thing for consignors.
@Soldi said:
A one hundred percent mark up !!! Whoa doggie that's even worse than that idiot Soldi who "said dealers need to make 50%"
Bidding on own lots is called "shilling" and is legal in many states.
Most if not all "auctions" are called "Sales" for a reason, that being they are not auctions.
Want an auction? Try the government seizure auctions you might get lucky and win perhaps a bargain.
Never buy a coin at auction that you can purchase just as easily from a dealer.
There is a good chance your dealer got the coin from an auction
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Boosibri said:
Great marketing opportunity for specialist dealers as an alternative outlet for buying and selling coins.
Yes, it’s time to for the smaller, more agile companies to make a statement.
While attracting consignors seems to be the main focus of the “big two,” you have to have buyers to make the consignors happy. As a buyer, who has never consigned anything to a major auction house, I feel like I’m getting hosed on a regular basis. This latest buying fee fiasco is the icing on the cake.
I’ve been looking at GC with great interest. The trouble is neither they nor anyone else, including “the big two,” has had a couple coins that are on my list. If GC gets them in the grade and the look I want, they are going to get some aggressive bids from me.
I’m getting really tired of the “big two.” The time has come for them to get some respect for buyers as well as sellers.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Ive for all intent and purposes have left the big two awhile ago for the boutique style of Legend on both the buy and sell side. The cosignments here have become more varied. There are exceptions for medals and stuff. I've never seen a coin on GC that has captured my fancy to date but I keep checking with more regularity. The irony is if more people use GC it will only drive up prices there. More eyes, more dollars.
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@UncleJoe said:
Just won 2 coins out of the previous Sunday auction (@17.5%) for less than my max bids. How the increase will affect my buying is yet to be seen. My max bids for the last two coins I won would have been less factoring in the 20%. I assume I would have still won them, I just don't know what the 20% would have done to my final bill. It may be slightly higher but it may also be the same or lower as other bidders adjust their bids accordingly. I do not think this is a good thing for consignors.
Joe.
No, it's not a good thing for consignors either, because it drives down hammer prices in general. The higher the buyers' fees get, the less incentive there is to bother with auctions.
Some dealers, like Doug Winter, are actively looking for consignments. As a former dealer, I can tell you that taking consignments is a great way to do business. You don't have to commit your capital and you have more fresh material. At the same time the consignor should get more of the gross selling price, and the he or she should get their payment faster. That's a win-win.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
As a buyer I shop any and all venues if the coin I want is available at the right price, I'm agnostic to the outlet, fee structure etc. Only the end price really matters. I don't get abandoning the big 2 as a buyer.
@Boosibri said:
I don't get abandoning the big 2 as a buyer.
I won't abandon them. I'm just glad there are more options available and those options have bore fruit.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I suspect coin auctions will eventually hit that number.
Well all the "auction" houses have to stay "competitive" with each other (sarcasm), so you're probably not wrong.
Do you think there would be a public outcry if American Airlines and Delta upped their fees within weeks of each other indicating they need to stay competitive? Or Verizon and ATT ...
I don't get it... Won't this just drive consignments elsewhere? Raising the "buyer's" fee is really just raising the seller's fee since bidders will adjust their bids to offset the extra fee, so less in the seller's pocket at the end of the day. If they are trying to be competitive they are going in the wrong direction.
What they should focus on is making the website more user friendly.
If you're a natural-born sucker who doesn't perform due diligence, nothing has changed.
If you've been paying attention and passed 5th-grade math, nothing has changed.
Old sig-line of mine by Mary Oliver: "Here is hope retching, the world as it is... "
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
As other's have pointed out, it's the seller who is hurt here. As a bidder, I would calculate my final price, and bid accordingly. All the money gets taken from the seller's pockets, which mean, I doubt I would ever sell my coins using any of these big auction houses.
If your underbidder doesn't adjust his bid to offset the higher BP, the increase will cost you money. But if you're a consignor, it works to your advantage.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Comments
Odd, to be sure. But you have to admit that CAN'T be true in the aggregate. Heritage doesn't raise buyer's fees so they can lose more money!
SOMEONE is getting less, so that the auction houses can get more.....
For those good at math Legend is keeping their buyers fee's at 17.5% for their Regency Auctions. I believe they are at 10% for their "monthly" auctions.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Higher transaction costs in auctions, etc. just like taxes, slow down and discourage liquidity of rare collectibles.
Gee whiz !! It sure looks like it's getting too expensive a "hobby" to engage in. Let's see a coin lists (all knowledge of pricing known) for $1000 quick bid $830 and you get it for $1000. Now, what have you done? You have driven the price of the coin down to $830.sounds like another expense to me. If I look at a PR I really don't care about the 20% charge, I eliminate it from my offer or I consider my downside in buying it. Honestly, I think the Coin market is trashed in too many ways since TPGs can't hold up without stickers and Auction companies can't split the commission between buyer and seller. Although, maybe we can consign for free and realize $830 on a $1000 coin! great ! Looks like another hit in the collectors pocketbook.
I have had two auction companies offer me 0% commission and 50% of estimated price realized, in advance, if I will consign.
Maybe, I will give it another 20 years before I sell anything. The risk is all the shenanigans that goes on in between time. My god "the opportunity costs" I'll get back after I figure that out.
Humble?
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Very good post. 20 years of internet coin trading and liquidity has receded.
Nonsense! if anything spreads have tightened and collectors liquidity options have grown exponentially with access to specialty dealers, eBay, great collections, heritage. Also you don't have to walk the floor or put an add in coin world if a small dealer. The Internet has revolutionized collectible transactions, I am not sure what you're talking about.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Sorry that you misunderstood. My point was that liquidity was greater in the earlier days of the net. I got in in late 2000 and could flip a coin on Ebay for 4.7%. Today it is 8.5-10% plus the cost of the store. Heritage had a 15% sellers fee at the time and CC's were welcome up to $10,000 now the fee is 20% and the cc cap is $2500-$4000.
Alternatives to HA and the other 20% plus shipping, etc. costs are looking a lot better now. With ebay at 8.5% plus shipping costs for sellers, BST transactions limited to whatever buyers and sellers want to do transactions at, sometimes just 3% paypal plus shipping, private treaty sales are going to increase. With the cac sticker the buyer can know what their downside risk is in the short term. Upside potential can be significant with private treaty purchases of cac or older holder high end coins, you don't have to fight over rare coins with other HA bidders.
Usury plain and simple! Do they not follow the market?
GREED.
I thought 17.5% was already steep.
Cross off heritage as a place I would ever sell my coins (taking too much meat off the bones.)
This is, however, great news for GreatCollections.
Auction companies don't split up any commissions to the buyers. The seller negotiates for some % of hammer (anything from -10% of hammer to +15% above hammer). That's the commission in a nut shell. Anything the buyer pitches in is either from poor math, inattention, or being unschooled on such things.
A "0% commission" means nothing without a reference. Is that 0% commission to hammer price or the final realized priced? Huge difference. I suspect those companies offering you "0% commission" are referencing to hammer. So you net 100/120....or 83.3%. That's a pretty weak offer, and an easy one to make for decent material. If your coin's winning bid at auction is $833...that's what YOU net on the consignor's invoice....83.3% The auction house keeps $167....or 16.7%. The buyer still pays $1,000 which is usually FMV. No fees are incurred by the buyer other than a shell game on the 20% so-called "buyer's" fee.
That's a great alternative for a lot of coins. It's a no frills low marketing venue. No lot descriptions. There is also ANOTHER great alternative for coins valued $2500 and up ( not set in stone). The buyers commission is 17.5% but as seller youu can get great terms and a GREAT piece of the action. A better spread then Great Collections. They also have the best auction catalog mailed to serous bidders, great photography and marketing.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
No doubt heritage does a great job. But I can't excuse that much of a percentage. If they need to keep raising their "take" then something is wrong.
In one hand its easier your way. But you guys have hidden bidders and 9 out of 10 times, the the house bids on the lots when its going under current market price. If you guys had transparent bidding, more folks will come to your auctions.
I got this email too... How dare they insult us by saying to be competitive they are raising BP? What does it mean?
I wasn't speaking to Heritage and I'm not overwhelmed by them.
As far as raising their rate----- coin auction commissions lag all almost all other auction types that I'm aware of. It was eventually going to happen. I think consignments are down and it's a sign of the times. Not as much greed IMHO as it is shrinking consignments. I do hear you though and understand the angst some are showing
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Heritage also has hidden bidders AND bids on material in their own auctions. Not following your point here.
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My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
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I'll continue to bid on Heritage lots, but when I sell I'm taking my business to Great Collections. 20% is ridiculous.
Very true. I've had 4 and 5 figure coins "sell" through Heritage auction for prices I considered low. Then a day or two later the coins show up in their dealer wholesale list, with one $12k coin marked up 100%. Why make 17.5% when you can make 100%. Live and learn, but IMO they are no joy to deal with.
I agree. Auction houses can only get away with price gouging if consignors and bidders let them get away with it. Let consignors and bidders walk away for a couple of months and you would see them go the other direction.
Heritage will also place coins it owns into its own auctions, and I would assume it bids on those too given that some of the auction coins end up on Heritage's eBay page. It is laughable that someone would imply that Heritage is transparent (not you brg5658).
After Stacks did it, it was only a matter of time.
What astounds me is that the 20% juice doesn't even include shipping.
Talk about adding insult to injury.
A one hundred percent mark up !!! Whoa doggie that's even worse than that idiot Soldi who "said dealers need to make 50%"
Bidding on own lots is called "shilling" and is legal in many states.
Most if not all "auctions" are called "Sales" for a reason, that being they are not auctions.
Want an auction? Try the government seizure auctions you might get lucky and win perhaps a bargain.
Never buy a coin at auction that you can purchase just as easily from a dealer.
Hate to see this, but I'll just bid accordingly. Not a show stopper for me. I know HA is the 800lb gorilla, but I really like them, especially their images. I've purchased so many nice coins from them over the years.
I will also say that this makes Great Collections look even better. I'm seeing more and more interesting coins on their site, at least in my area of interest. I hope they do well. Love competition.
Dave
Ha.com is not transparent either. I opend a thread in the NGC forums (!) About their non transparency and housebidding which is not fair to buyers and also artificially fixes prices even when no buyers exist.
I was scolded and scoffed by Mark Feld in the forums. I don't know if that member is here, but in NGC forums this members actively is harsh on lot of people/posts.
BTW the member says "Mark Feld of Heritage Auctions"
That doesn't sound like Mark. It must have been in the phrasing. What they do is legal; I just think it happens to be unfair and creates a questionable system of pricing data that may or may not reflect reality.
I'm a small fry and stay under $700 on most coins and once in awhile $1500 plus on one I bug about but jeemny cricket its a pain for me to buy coins from them. It irritates and confuses me trying to learn the ropes with them. Can I say this? "they bite" I sold on the outfit I use out of L.A. the workingman friend "GrrrrrrrrtCollections!".
Attempted the Heritage thing and I fell flat, just gave up.
So, 20 years from now we will be at a 55% buyer's fee?
Probably easier to have the house keep all the proceeds. You wouldn't have to worry about when your check was going to arrive.
I do wonder where the tipping point is...25%, 30%?
Latin American Collection
That's an interesting question. In the following thread, it was claimed that 100% wouldn't be a problem because it's easy to divide by 2. Multiplying/dividing by 2 is even easier than 20%.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/983732/5th-grade-math-and-why-the-20-buyers-fee-is-bad-for-collectors
Sotheby's and Christie's have 25% BP.
I suspect coin auctions will eventually hit that number.
I've always stayed away from auctions, for many reasons.
This increase just adds another reason to my list.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Just won 2 coins out of the previous Sunday auction (@17.5%) for less than my max bids. How the increase will affect my buying is yet to be seen. My max bids for the last two coins I won would have been less factoring in the 20%. I assume I would have still won them, I just don't know what the 20% would have done to my final bill. It may be slightly higher but it may also be the same or lower as other bidders adjust their bids accordingly. I do not think this is a good thing for consignors.
Joe.
I wonder if they would have more price realization by widening bid increments.
Latin American Collection
There is a good chance your dealer got the coin from an auction
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Yes, it’s time to for the smaller, more agile companies to make a statement.
While attracting consignors seems to be the main focus of the “big two,” you have to have buyers to make the consignors happy. As a buyer, who has never consigned anything to a major auction house, I feel like I’m getting hosed on a regular basis. This latest buying fee fiasco is the icing on the cake.
I’ve been looking at GC with great interest. The trouble is neither they nor anyone else, including “the big two,” has had a couple coins that are on my list. If GC gets them in the grade and the look I want, they are going to get some aggressive bids from me.
I’m getting really tired of the “big two.” The time has come for them to get some respect for buyers as well as sellers.
Ive for all intent and purposes have left the big two awhile ago for the boutique style of Legend on both the buy and sell side. The cosignments here have become more varied. There are exceptions for medals and stuff. I've never seen a coin on GC that has captured my fancy to date but I keep checking with more regularity. The irony is if more people use GC it will only drive up prices there. More eyes, more dollars.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
No, it's not a good thing for consignors either, because it drives down hammer prices in general. The higher the buyers' fees get, the less incentive there is to bother with auctions.
Some dealers, like Doug Winter, are actively looking for consignments. As a former dealer, I can tell you that taking consignments is a great way to do business. You don't have to commit your capital and you have more fresh material. At the same time the consignor should get more of the gross selling price, and the he or she should get their payment faster. That's a win-win.
As a buyer I shop any and all venues if the coin I want is available at the right price, I'm agnostic to the outlet, fee structure etc. Only the end price really matters. I don't get abandoning the big 2 as a buyer.
Latin American Collection
I won't abandon them. I'm just glad there are more options available and those options have bore fruit.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Well all the "auction" houses have to stay "competitive" with each other (sarcasm), so you're probably not wrong.
Do you think there would be a public outcry if American Airlines and Delta upped their fees within weeks of each other indicating they need to stay competitive? Or Verizon and ATT ...
I don't get it... Won't this just drive consignments elsewhere? Raising the "buyer's" fee is really just raising the seller's fee since bidders will adjust their bids to offset the extra fee, so less in the seller's pocket at the end of the day. If they are trying to be competitive they are going in the wrong direction.
What they should focus on is making the website more user friendly.
Collector, occasional seller
The increase to 20% is not a concern since their auction offerings are thin on the PCGS/CAC coins I am looking for.
So far this year my set's additions came from a specialist dealer and fellow collectors. My last Heritage purchase was mid 2016.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
Think of the potential positive side of this-it may re-invigorate my favorite venue--the Boarse--at many coin shows.
Tom
If you're a natural-born sucker who doesn't perform due diligence, nothing has changed.
If you've been paying attention and passed 5th-grade math, nothing has changed.
Old sig-line of mine by Mary Oliver: "Here is hope retching, the world as it is... "
As other's have pointed out, it's the seller who is hurt here. As a bidder, I would calculate my final price, and bid accordingly. All the money gets taken from the seller's pockets, which mean, I doubt I would ever sell my coins using any of these big auction houses.
If your underbidder doesn't adjust his bid to offset the higher BP, the increase will cost you money. But if you're a consignor, it works to your advantage.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.