... it is my opinion that the era of the mega-show is totally over...
JJSingleton
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In a recent email Doug Winter writes: ...it is my opinion that the era of the mega-show is totally over and we have been in the Internet Era of numismatics for at least three years, if not longer. It is interesting to attend a show like the ANA and see how many dealers are a decade or more behind the times…and most don’t even realize that their businesses are unfixably broken...
This kinda of follows my belief. What say you?
Joseph J. Singleton - First Superintendent of the U.S. Branch Mint in Dahlonega Georgia
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I disagree.
There is MUCH more to the coin collecting hobby than just buying and selling coins. The mega-show is not only a coin buying/selling opportunity, it is also a mega-social event for coin collectors. Further, you can see rare coins or collections that you would not otherwise have the chance to. Also, even though most high end coins are slabbed these days, there is the tactile sense of actually picking up and holding a coin. Finally, there is serendipity... finding things that you were never interested in before, or getting a lead from a dealer, or just stumbling over a long looked for coin in a small dealer's case.
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Well it's definitely not a one-channel marketplace. I've read more and more about how customers are operating in an omni-channel type manner, whether or not the dealers realize it. I'm not sure if this impacts the desire of both dealers/collectors to attend large shows or not.
I don't think the market has advanced to a point where it is "unfixably broken" for the dealers who don't sell outside of shows, though.
I hope not. I love coin shows.
Considering that all of the Major dealers, and a pretty fair number of the Minor dealers, sell both on the internet AND in person, I'm not sure that their businesses are as broken as the quote claims.
The "mega-show" still fills a purpose, if only as a venue for doing wholesale "mixing" of the overall inventory. And SOME of us still like to see a coin in person before we plunk down our money....
A mix of sales venues, (internet, mega-shows, local shows, B&M, whatever), seems more indicative of a business model that works, rather than one that is unfixably broken....
The summer ANA could be cut in half and not skip a beat.
I do not, however, hear many people complaining about winter FUN. That may be the last "mega show" left standing.
There are a significant number of dealers who have not refined their business practices to keep up to date. No online sales, their own grading standards, angry if you question anything. The best businesses roll with all the punches and improve their practices. are transparent and fair when buying and selling.
Can't say as I totally agree. There are some substantial transactions taking place at shows that simply would not occur in an on-line format. TommyType states it pretty well in his post.
What's the internet?
I disagree. Big shows combined with big auctions are not out of style yet.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Just like shopping malls the internet has shifted the playing field dramatically. Many malls are closing and I think the same will happen to coin dealers that haven't kept up with the times and don't have an online presence. The exception will be specialists.
My takeaway is that over the next 3-5 years several shows will shutter. It's actually a good thing as it will make the surviving shows that much more special and ultimately stronger.
JMHO
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
After spending most of last week at the ANA, and listening to many comments from collectors, dealers, exhibitors and others (guests, general public), the consensus was "confused" at best.
Experienced general collectors found arrangements comfortable and familiar. Newer collectors and younger people, and some of the general public thought it was confusing. Dealers ranged from positive about an accustomed format, to those who were there to have a presence, but had found that business was limited. (The trend of decreased show sales began about 8 years ago according to some.)
Some thoughts: Show organizers, including ANA, must completely revise the bourse experience and integrate it with education and marketing displays. Static display is archaic. Coin shows need to have "pop" and "energy" more like a truly unified socially connected environment. Bring education onto the bourse floor - no more 1/4 mile trots to a lifeless meeting room. (I suspect that Money Talks and Sundman Lectures would have 2 to 3 times the audience if they were within the bourse rather than separated from it by floors or lengthy hikes.) Use large screen displays to highlight and continually update auction and other activities. Video all of the exhibits and display on large screens. Conduct and display live interviews (these can be re-run at various times/days). Feature hobby writers in open-question scenarios. Use the screens to display show updates and events -- get rid of unintelligible PA announcements.
This suggests that future shows must be produced and managed to appeal to a newer existing audience and potential collectors. Traditions need not be lost, but can exist along side changes. Active production requires expenditure of resources - something the hobby has never really done.
I agree. I think that the success of coin shows can no longer be gauged by the amount of collectors in attendance. They are still useful and necessary, but not so much for collectors, but for dealers. The PCGS shows are the model for the future. Grading, auctions and dealers looking to buy and sell are the drivers of a good coin show. The collectors are there, on-line or at the shows. Mostly on-line.
What would really hurt shows would be if no dealers showed up.
JMHO, he is wrong and he is right.
I have been saying for many, many years that there are too many dealers and too many shows, but, alas, it has fallen mainly on deaf ears. too many shows allows for over-exposure and burnout for lots of dealers and buyers get accustomed to seeing the same stale material for sale at the same price. that tends to cause a negative reaction to shows in general. at the same time the advent of the internet has effectively killed any overhead needed for a "dealer" to start-up, the initial cost and some yearly maintenance is all that's needed. that trickles down to less attendance at shows which trickles down to the earlier point.
as others have said, shows play an important social part in the Hobby and nothing, absolutely nothing, can beat holding a coin in your hand and talking to the dealer who's selling it face-to-face. the solution is less shows which seems inevitable and less dealers which seems doubtful.
Things are always changing - in every field, in every human endeavor. Some enter the stream, adapt, and thrive. Some enter, get comfortable in their ways, and never change. Those who don't keep up fall behind (and usually complain loudly that the system is rigged).
I suspect there will always be shows (as long as there is business to be done) but the nature of the shows will keep changing, as it undoubtedly always has.
I hope the coin shows will continue as I just restarted this hobby after 25 years off and I enjoy the shows much more than buying on-line. Sports card shows have done the same thing over the last 15 years and do not occur as often, but the ones that are still around are fairly strong. Hopefully the same will be true with the coins shows.
Donato
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I see this with bullion all the time. Stopped at a place I used to frequent last week and the shop was selling 90% for 15x . He complained demand was low .
I showed him providents website on my phone right now showing 12.67 x any quantity . They take checks and there is free shipping too . Who wants to leave the house , drive somewhere and pay more when you can press a button?
the only overhead i care about is my own
Sight-seen beats sight-unseen when a collector is laying out serious money. The true eye appeal of a numismatic coin is difficult to determine by photographs and on-line. The show events facilitate seeing the coins in person and perhaps the shows may shrink in size and number, but they will never go away.
Well the F.U.N. folks seem to have found the secret to a great major show. If they all die out, this on may even outlast the ANA show.
Right , but slabbing and stickering cuts the need for sight seen and marginalizes that aspect. A lot of collectors can't really grade at the MS level anyway so going to a show to hold the coin wasn't improving their outcomes before TPGS . Or if they collect widgets , or buy bullion , etc.
Specialists will always want to go in person and look at the coins .
New school shows are what? A bunch of dealers horse trading all the good stuff before the public gets a sniff and it never sees the light of day , then cue the horde of Sheldon Cooper types that park at the tables staring at 2x2's for hours only to spend $20 when all is said and done.
@RogerB ....Those are excellent suggestions... I believe it was Heraclitus that coined the original adage, "The Only Thing That Is Constant Is Change.".....Just as mall shopping is dying, and not just due to the internet, other forms of business are changing. The internet IS important, and for both sides of business, change is necessary. Those who adapt, will succeed. Mega coin shows will continue - if they adapt. Small, local coin shows will always be there. Just look at the volume of business being done on Instagram and other venues. Cheers, RickO
I've been to very few "mega" shows. Closest would be Long Beach and Santa Clara.
Unfortunately MISSED the ANA when it was local.
BUT...... I am never going to another ...small... show again.
Waiting in line in front of the tables of the very FEW who have anything good is just too frustrating.
And then to have to listen to the cajoling of those who are pure time wasters with NO intention to buy has just done me in.
But that's just ME.
The main thing on the small shows is stale inventory and "vanity" dealers taking up space.
Did I mention cheap and lousy venues? Oh, I just did.
"Weekend warriors" dealers have their place too, but if you don't want to go to a small show, then don't.
To some extent, small shows are a "special meeting" or "extra meeting" of the organization that sponsors them. They are supposed to have a fraternal mix of camaraderie and bullshitterie.
When my wife wants a pair of shoes...she orders four different styles in her size from Zappos.com...then she keeps one pair and sends the other three pairs back for full credit...
Can you imagine if I called DW and asked him to send me four different 1838-C half eagles in AU on approval...LOL
IMHO small shows don't have the depth of inventory I need...I would go to a big show if it is in NYC or Boston (3 hours away)....but I have a small business to run and I don't have the time to fly to Denver for 2-3 days...
My dream coin buying experience would be an "Avon Party" for coins: meet up with DW in New Orleans or wherever with a group of ten other old gold coin guys/gals...take a tour of the mint...sit down and review/buy some coins from DWN...maybe trade/sell some to him or the other guys...have a cajun dinner...fly home...total time away = 1.5 days
Until then I am happy buying on the internet and conversing with my coin buddies on these boards...
DWN does an incredible job of re-creating the thrill of the hunt with his online sales (as does CRO and perhaps others)...
Former post got eaten by the system.
Slabbing is great for additional assurance regarding authenticity, but doesn't really say too much about eye appeal. Eye appeal is an individual and personal decision, best made by actually viewing the coin.
i hope not, i really like going to the coin shows. theres some really nice people there
The key to some of the mediocre shows is whether dealers will pay the costs to keep them going or improving. Overall inflation may be low, but I'll bet show overhead isn't. FUN and ANA could/should lead in improving as they have the strongest support, but we will see.
This. I have gone to shows with no intention to buy anything just to visit with people in the business that I like whom otherwise would not be able to see. Plus, I really enjoy holding a really nice coin in my hand that I know I will never buy, just because I appreciate that sort of thing, and the dealer who shows it to me knows this and appreciates that fact.
Secondly, if the coin is not in your hand, or someone you trust isn't looking at the coin on your behalf, if you buy it, you are buying it sight unseen. I don't care who slabbed it, what it grades, and whether or not it has a sticker. If you're okay with that, have at it; I'll pass.
Sorry, I've been around too long and have seen to much to believe otherwise. What you like is a very individual matter, and if someone / some entity thinks a coin is all there for the grade, are you just going to believe it and write a check for a large amount for said coin? I sure wouldn't, haven't, and never will.
The above said, I do agree that we have too many shows and auctions, with much stale inventory being recirculated as a result.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Why haven't any of the National shows moved to new places if shows are so bad right now? That could re-ignite people to begin collecting again or convince a collector to attend a show who hasn't done so before. Plus new dealers, collectors and vendors will come too.
Isn't that part of the reason why major sporting events like: the World Cup, Olympics and Super Bowl are in different countries and cities each time they occur? To attract different populations, give other cities and countries a chance?
ANA also has to up their online and social media presence to notify people that these things are going on. How about post some of the seminars on youtube to entice people to come by?
Then again, what do I know...
**Why haven't any of the National shows moved to new places if shows are so bad right now? **
this is an unspoken truth about Central States. IIRC, recent shows have suffered a little in attendance and I would attribute that at least in part to the insistence on that Club in staying in one location. if they moved around I think two things would happen: 1.) diehards who would attend if it were held in BFE would still go ---and --- 2.) collectors who are local to wherever it's held would attend, perhaps exposing many YN's and older collectors to the Hobby.
I can say this much, I won't travel 5-6 hours to Chicago and stay overnight, but I have traveled 2-3 hours for a day trip to Central Sates.
There's not much of a secret to a coin-funded vacation in the middle of winter in Sunny Florida.
It's the people...and all the extras, TPGS's, BEP, Mint, exhibits, and educational forums
Agreed with this. The coin show serves an important purpose. You get to meet people and learn and pick up 10s or 100s or 1000s of coins if you want. Seeing coins in person is much different than pictures. You can't pick up 40 different 1877 indian head cents on eBay and inspect them all. You can at Long Beach.
I have personally gained a lot of knowledge and had interesting conversations at a show that I wouldn't easily have anywhere else.
And as you said, there aren't many places where you can pick up a rare coin and hold it even if you can't afford a single denticle on it. I got to hold the Dexter 1804 Dollar at Long Beach at the Stack's table. Never in a million years will I afford it. But they let me hold and it and look at it's surfaces in the light. What an experience that was. Nevermind the buff guy standing 4 feet behind me.
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They should move the show to Mid July. Then we will see what the true level of interest is.
Or perhaps to being able to write off some portion of the winter Florida vacation as a business expense for income tax purposes?
CICF did disappear. The reasons are mostly well known. I think the other KP sponsored show is gone too.
The Memphis paper money show has moved, but I know nothing about the dynamics or success of that.
(Separate thought) despite what happened to CICF, National coin shows close to O'Hare Interational Airport are going to be a staple of things for a long time to come. The proximity to the Airport at a major crossroads of the nation is key.
@RogerB
'pop and energy' would be welcomed
@keets
Movement of show locations, although logistically challenging, would also be welcomed, JMO
@ricko
Once again you are correct, in my humble opinion,.....every successful venture adapts before adaptation is required
Kind of like seeing the future before it bytes you in the a$$.
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Bad transactions with : nobody to date
The paper money show moved to Kansas City, MO. The general concensus from dealers was that it was successful in the new location. I did not set up at the show even though it is my home town, however I did attend the show and thoroughly enjoyed it.
The reasons I show up at a big show is first and foremost, to have a bunch of better coins graded. Second, look around and see what I can find. Third, sell a few things that are not all that easy to find and leave with cash in hand. Too often coins for sale are overpriced because the dealer bought it years ago and won't even consider selling the coin at current market prices.
If PCGS continues the grade tightening, I personally will not show up to pay those prices for grading. I wonder if I am alone with this thinking.
WOW - I really can't understand this thread - I just got back from Denver and the Megashow was awesome. I bought a coin out of auction, bought some coins from dealers that have exceptional eye appeal, caught up with many coins friends that I only see at Megashows, attended the JRCS meeting, attended the NLG Bash, attended the PCGS registry luncheon and won an award. Lastly, spent some time looking at some great exhibits - Heritage displayed several 1792 Dismes and Half Dismes - all of them exceptional. No other venue offers that. Period. Oh yeah, sold a few coins too at a small profit to offset my travel costs.
I mainly go to large shows to socialize with my dealer and collector friends. Every once and awhile a coin gets in the way
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
This is why coin shows will survive. They may "evolve" but they won't disappear.
As for "younger people" finding it confusing:
I have been to enough shows, so I know my way around. Unfortunately, many of the boy scouts and girl scouts and public kids who come in free on Saturday do not. If I was them, I would be very confused. Many dealers are packing up on that day, and things are rather hectic. I would appreciate more organization for kids in that regard.
Education on the bourse floor would in a word be: interesting. Rod Gillis does his Coin Collecting 101 and Coin Collecting Basics presentations on the bourse, and they are hardly audible. The talking tends to be so loud it is difficult. I like the idea of the education on the bourse, but that problem would need to be solved. The PA announcements I agree with entirely. It is hilarious to watch people try and listen to the announcements.
Now some own ideas of mine.
Move the show more. Rosemont has some advantages, but not everyone can make it over there. I would appreciate more effort on that regard, as a YN on the west coast.
Shows are NOT just for buying and selling. Personally, I spend the majority of my time talking with people. Before it was a dealer-focused event, it was a social event.
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2021 Young Numismatist of the Year
Moving all educational and club/SIG meetings to the bourse floor is easily accomplished by renting self-contained meeting pods. All that's needed is a suitable electrical connection. A meeting pod is soundproof, has it's own lighting and ventilation, and they come is a range of sizes. I've used these as portable meeting rooms next to live-fire military ranges for real-time performance assessment and they work very well.
As Kellen and others note, the social connection part of a large show is nearly as important to attendees as buying/selling. How can that be encouraged, yet remain supportive of the sales aspect that provides funding for the event?
If ANA and other large shows are adjusted in scope and scale, maybe more venues will become available. I realize that venues are interested in hotel room rentals and other things than the show - but there are opportunities for hobby marketing and development that have not been explored.
In more bureaucratic language, and as suggested in Charmy's dealer-committee post, the fundamental issues are what is really wanted by stakeholders: the ANA/sponsor; dealers; collectors; general public; auction companies? This is a deep-dive question not addressed by anyone in a pubic forum.
The ANA lacks an identity. That in itself limits it effectiveness concerning putting on a show.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
While I will acknowledge that I did not see a significant retail public come in, I will say that I know tens of millions of dollars worth of coins traded hands over that 1 week and perhaps that number is even in the hundreds of millions.
The vast size of the show brought in large amount of dealers to play coins, and whether or not their clients showed up, most dealers came to buy sell and trade.
Dealers need a place where they can buy and sell coins wholesale as well as stock up on new items. No better place to something like this than in a room filled with close to 1000 dealers.
I have not read dougs show report, but I imagine that since the majority of his purchases come from in hand viewing and purchasing, having 500+ dealers all within a room allows him to view significantly more coins than if he were to have to check 500+ different websites.
I think shows continue to be huge for collectors and dealers alike- Whether or not the public attends
In a recent email Doug Winter writes: ...it is my opinion that the era of the mega-show is totally over
I think that it would be more accurate to say that coin shows have reached their maximum size but haven't gone away yet.
Their maximum attendance probably reached a peak several decades ago but we still have coin shows. They just won't be as big or well attended.
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