Would you pay $16,450 for this 1875-CC Twenty Cent Piece?
BillJones
Posts: 34,913 ✭✭✭✭✭
The piece a PCGS MS-65. The "Coin Facts" retail number is $15,000, and the curent Gray Sheet is $8,800. Would you pay $16,450 for it, given the toning issue on the reverse?
Incidently, the weakness on the eagle's left wing and the corrisponding area on the obverse typical for this issue. Most but no all pieces show this weakness.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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No, there was one that just sold in June at Heritage Auctions for $8813 all in and it looked better.
I'd have to see it in hand
Check the coin that sold in June at Heritage for $8813 look at the reverse and you will see the top of the wing by the "S" in "States" and compare that to the reverse you are showing. There seems to be a lot of wear on that part of the wing compared to the one that was purchased at Heritage.
Short answer: no.
Long answer: nope.
Probably not. The coin is far enough out of my comfort zone that I'd want it to be pretty darn nice. The toning streak is a distraction. The overall toning pattern, while typical, isn't that great. The stars and shield are weakly struck....... I know, a lot of them come that way. Really tremendous luster would mitigate some of this, but it looks dull in the photo.
No...even if I had the means to do so.
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I'd need to see it in hand, but based on what I have read here on 75-cc 20 centers, maybe!
Tom
NO, based on my experience with expensive coins with planchet streaks, they are very easy to buy and almost impossible to sell when the time comes. I had a well known dealer refuse to give me any offer on a gorgeous Lafayette MS64 due to a similar defect.
Commems and Early Type
The whole story is it sold more than 2 years ago for that price and is also CAC. Anyone's guess what would happen today but my guess is it would sell for less.
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The money would stay in my wallet. Based on the photos, it is a very unimpressive coin.
No
That is not "wear" on the eagle's wing. It's the way the coin was struck, and probably a majority of the 1875-CC coins were stuck that way, although it's impossible to know on a well worn example.
Would I buy a high grade example of this coin with the "weak wing?" It's possible, but knowing that there are are pieces out there which are fully struck, and if you will willing to wait you might snag one, I might hold out for the "perfect one." The piece in my collection is fully struck, but it's only an NGC MS-62 with funky toning. This was no a coin that I wanted "to mortgage the ranch" to buy.
My other question is, why did CAC sticker this coin with the unattractive streak on the reverse? Should this been a case of where they just should have said no?
I would not have stickered it if I had been in the grading room. Having tried to sell coins like this in past, I know that a mark like this does affect the eye appeal and does make it harder to sell the coin, especially at a premium price.
I'd much rather have the first coin than the ms62. Too many compromises there
If you didn't like it as a 65, you're really gonna hate it as a 66. Lol
I'm with him.
Most of the time an MS-65 is more desirable than an MS-62.
And if that coin is now in an MS-66 holder, I'd advise prospetive buyers to check out the MS-65 graded piece that Great Collections has up for auction. That's what got me started on this.
No
My other question is, why did CAC sticker this coin with the unattractive streak on the reverse? Should this been a case of where they just should have said no?
Because they love to sticker low end 66's in 65 holders. And not sticker them when they upgrade (yes, I checked). That's how CAC works - they evaluate coins in hand instead of poo pooing them off an image.
Overgraded or as your business partner would call it, "expensive dreck."
CAC is not as phobic on mottled and/or neutral to unattractive toning as the Forum crowd is. Mottled toning is pretty much the norm when it comes to gem better date seated material. But those coins are slowly disappearing as more and more of them get dipped to commence the transition to "more attractive" secondary toning. It doesn't always work out though. A toning streak is not a big deal to me on a 19th century pop top level MS silver coin. That's mostly all you ever saw from 1975-1990.
That rational is almost as pathetic as the one you gave for the 1852 gold dollar graded PCGS MS-63,CAC that had the "L" scratched into the top of the obverse. I noticed that you pulled that post before I could respond. For you CAC is not a grading service; it is a religion.
It truly amazes me how you feel free to hurl insults at a potential customer who just bid $33,000 in one of your auctions. I should write you up for a Harvard Business School case study, "How to Insult Customers and Grow Your Business."
CAC is about grade and skin, not pretty.
I thought that it was also about avoiding traps. You can find this coin with original toning and no streak. That coin would be CAC worthy if all of the other factors are equal.
I would also be concerned about what is going on under the eagle's neck and beak.
Please be advised that I will be STEALING that phrase many many many times in the future.
"Strike" forced me to buy this dirty thing.
That is the kind of original toning that many experienced collectors prefer.
no chance
BHNC #203
What happens a decade from now when it's a 67?
I'm wondering if it's going to get a green bean now that it is an MS-66. Which is worth more, an MS-66 with no CAC or an MS-65 with CAC?
I take it back. Now that it is a 66, it will sell for more! It was a good buy 2 years ago!
You could post most ANY coin with a price tag of $16,450, and my answer would be "no".
But seriously, I think the coin MUST look better looking if it actually upgraded to 66. Photos, photos, try to read the photos. I've been looking for the "right" 1921-D Morgan in MS-64, (hardly a rare or expensive issue, or one worth spending a lot of time on), and end up rejecting them all based on the photos. Some years/types just don't photograph well....
I'm the minority, but not that bad, would have to see it in hand. What might bother me more than the toning is the luster rub.
No.... I realize that it may be current market pricing (not my series), however, it just does not have the eye appeal that I find desirable. Cheers, RickO
Only an awareness of the progressive course of my curmudgeonliness keeps my finger off the disagree button.
Speaking perhaps more clearly than on the 1916 matte 1c thread: If one were so overwhelmed by indolence that one wouldn't look at CoinFacts, where none of the three highest graded and imaged (66+,66,66) have a strike that close to @BillJones', and one were willing to exhibit the resultant ignorance, one would not be likely to gain the respect of people who've done even the most cursory click-of-a-button research.
If your "seems" statement had ended in "How do I get un-confused?", my next response as OP would be "Must be load of images of Uncs a few clicks away in the Heritage Archives. Spend a 1/2 hour there and tell us what you think now".
@tdiaz1979 - While I've used your post as a target, it's not about you personally. One of my roles here, as I see it, is to act as a facilitator. As an enabler, I hinder your progress.
It's not just a river in Egypt .
Imagined conversation at Casa @BillJones
@RegistrySetWife "@B, is this the 10,000th time you've tried to set someone straight?. Doesn't this drive you nuts?
@BillJones "Most of the time. If I actually counted, it might be worse"
@RegistrySetWife "Oh.. Look Honey! Isn't that coin ready for a snipe in an hour? And @ricko sent us some lovely Premium Grolsch we can have with dinner before it goes off."
From the initial pictures I thought the coin was borderline ms66. Further reading confirmed that is where the coin is now
Technically, I note the tick in the inside of Ms. Lib's right elbow, the slanting vertical mark on the thigh, and a tick and tick+ below star #13. The indentations are somewhat masked by the dusky toning that formed over the injured metal. Undeserving of a plus.
TDN, immersing the coin in ammonia improved my perception of the brightness, but now it looks AT.
Unimpressive sums it up. Wholesome, not pretty. Marginal at $10K all-in for an informed collector who'll be satisfied knowing there's a chance to trade up in a year or three; a miserable tangible assets play at $8500.
I wouldn't have an issue with that coin as a 65. The huge dinner plate photos don't make it look great, but the full-slab photos show a decent coin with original skin.
In fact, I'm somewhat encouraged when nice, original coins get rewarded by PCGS, because the alternative would be to just encourage dipping and other efforts on the reverse toning in order to get a higher grade.
My real issue with the whole situation is that this highlights the grading game that this hobby has become. @BillJones I think your torch and pitchfork are misdirected. The issue isn't that a solid, original coin was graded MS 65 by PCGS, stickered by CAC, and recognized as high-end with a stretch bid @ Heritage. The issue is that this decent coin, as a new MS 66, has become one more example of a maxed-out coin, likely helped there by one of the many crackout dealers endemic to the hobby today.
That's a CoinFacts TrueView photo to go along with the HA photos. Without seeing the coin in hand, I can at least say many other TrueViews are more flattering. If this was my coin, I'd ask Phil to review other photos from the same session or order a new one.
That being said, PCGS Price Guide for this coin in MS66 is $37,000: PCGS 25645118
At this grade, $16,450 could be a steal, so could this thread be renamed to the following?
no way. just saying
Hurling insults? My my my - not even close.
A dealer mentor long ago told me "its a key but not a nice coin" when I offered a high grade coin in his specialty.
The coin had grade but was not pleasing that's why I wanted to sell it. Had to cut the price way down to sell it after many trys. Almost 20 years later. A friend showed me a coin he just bought out of a low end dealers 2x2 box, Yes that was it, how could I forget.
If the money in your pocket can provide more pleasing things then the coin, stay away. Is it more pleasing to drive a new car or have a not so nice coin locked away in your safe deposit box.
Krueger
That CC double dime has an enviable strike! Very nice!
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
I know that this is an 1876-P, but compare the number marks and eye appeal. This is graded MS-65, and it is the best Twenty Cent Piece I own from the stand point of preservation. This is what you should get when you buy a MS-65 coin.
Here's an "acid test" question. Would Ms. Laura add the 1875-CC Twenty Cent Piece with which I started this thread into her inventory voluntarily? I doubt it because from what I've seen in the Legend inventory, they stock far more attractive coins than that piece.
And yes, ColonelJessup is right. The marks on Ms. Liberty, and most especially the big mark under the 13th star would take that coin out of any possibility of making MS-66 so far as I'm concerned.
As someone who has spent over $25k on double dimes in the past year and is actively looking to upgrade, my long answer is noooooooooooo.
Also, sweet BF-4, topstuf.
But not on their UNC coins.
Eye appeal is a major component of grading at the gem level and higher.
Is that obvious white spot on the eagle's breast on the coin or on the holder?
The 3 tiny tics/marks mentioned on the 1875-cc MS66 are expected for the grade. What's more important is the strike, luster blast, and eye appeal. One could expect a couple light tics on a MS67.
http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/5471
While not a 20c piece, this 1867 PCGS MS67 CAC seated 25c has an obvious tick on either side of the date, a few grazes in the mid to upper left obverse field, and obv high point scuffing/grazes. It originally graded PCGS MS66 in August 1986 when standards were quite strict. I can accept a couple tiny flaws on a 66/67 coin.
No,no,no.
True, but collectors should learn what is attractive to those who spend more than a few hundred dollars for coin, who know what they are doing. That coin that is now an MS-66 does not have that look. It's even marginal for the MS-65 grade.
If I left you a want list for a high grade 1875-CC 20 cent and you put that coin in front of me, I won't buy it unless I was desperate, and there is no reason to get desperate for an 1875-CC which is the second most common coin in the set.