@tradedollarnut said:
And if another 1933 shows up with even better documentation that it's the Farouk coin?
Possibly, and I suggested that the best papers from a collector's standpoint would be a cashier's receipt like exists for the 1933 eagle. If a cashier's receipt exists for a 1933 double eagle then all 1933 double eagles could become legal like all 1933 eagles.
@tradedollarnut said:
An act of Congress retroactively legalizing all 1933 coinage ...with the ten returned to the family.
I've mentioned a few times it would be nice if the ANA was more closely involved with Congress. Imagine if the ANA membership wanted this and the ANA machinery was able to mobilize enough constituents to convince Congress
@tradedollarnut said:
Point being - just about anything can happen..
With limited probability. Based on what I've seen of people wanting Lady Liberty back on coins, dealing with Chinese counterfeits, dealing with doctoring, dealing with gradeflation, etc. there can be a big difference between what some would like to happen and what actually happens.
The 1794 SP66 Dollar has historical significance that the 1933 DE does not. There are at least 12-20 1933 DE's........it is just a problem that the government owns all of them except for one. I do not think that the government has a 1794 SP66 in their archieves, but it may be possible. The J-1776 would sell for more just for it's beauty. Even that said, the 1794 SP66 is the most significant coin historically.
Wow, those are some highly speculative comments in the last 50 or so posts. The fact is that one can go out and get OVER 100 different 1794 specimen (BTW, with possibly MANY more in the woodwork). One cannot go and get a 1933 DE, be it one of the Switt family pieces, or one of the Smithsonian pieces. Let's then go there with rarity of the issue!
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
I cannot recall, is it known for absolute certainty that the US Government didn't pick up the 1933 Farouk specimen, essentially at half price? Is it absolutely in private hands?
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64 Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
@keyman64 said:
I cannot recall, is it known for absolute certainty that the US Government didn't pick up the 1933 Farouk specimen, essentially at half price? Is it absolutely in private hands?
Good question. I believe that the buyer remains anonymous which seems unusual after 15 years.
@keyman64 said:
I cannot recall, is it known for absolute certainty that the US Government didn't pick up the 1933 Farouk specimen, essentially at half price? Is it absolutely in private hands?
Good question. I believe that the buyer remains anonymous which seems unusual after 15 years.
It is a possibility that the buyer is not a coin collector but thought it was interesting and rare, in which case the buyer may have less interest in publicity.
An important point that has not been made is the fact that the rarest coins aren't coins aren't always the most valuable.
For decades, the most expensive US coin was the 1804 dollar, with 15 known, even after the unique 1873CC half dime was discovered. The half dime only brought $632,500 at a time when 1804 dollars were worth several million each.
The rarest coins tend to be those with a few specimens available, NOT the unique ones. The Brasher Doubloon is another example. The availability (ability to own an example) plays an important part role in value. The coins have to become available at least once in a great while to bring the top prices.
Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
@roadrunner said:
What happens if the Govt decides one day to sell off some or all of the coins in the Smithsonian? What if they govt changes its mind and decides to sell the ex-Longbord 1933's? It's a black cloud hanging over the 1933 Saint market.
None of those sales will ever happen. The government has no need for the money, It will just create more by selling its bonds the the Federal Reserve.
At any rate the proceeds from those sales would be a trickle of money compared to the national debt or the amount of money the government spends in an hour.
One can then argue, why did the Farouk coin sale occur around 15 yrs ago? Why did the govt take a 50% split in the proceeds if they "didn't need the money?" Why spend so much time and effort on 1933 DE's since the late 1930's if they aren't worth the time and effort? How much did they "blow" for us taxpayers in the Langbord litigation costs over the past 15 yrs? Their lawyers, agents and analysts could have been used confiscating money launderer's or drug dealers...probably worth hundreds of $MILLIONs. Yeah, the govt spends about $4 BILL each day to cover operations....but fixating on 1933 DE's seems to have been a priority. Now if these were not 1 ounce gold coins....I think their efforts towards recovery would have been almost nil. But that's a gold thing in play since the March 1933 Presidential Executive Order.
The US Mint gave a treasure trove of hundreds/thousands of US rarities and patterns to William Woodin a little over 100 yrs ago in exchange for the gold half unions. Clearly, there is precedence to do "deals." Someday, they just may decide they want J-1776 back....only for historical perspective of course. I'm not sure why such a coin should have even been transferred to public hands. Hmm...how about a trade for the 10 Langbord Saints and officially declare all 1933 $20's in existence monetized?
Money has had nothing to do with any of the government's efforts to recover or sell the 1933 double eagles. It has to do with politics, exercising bureaucratic muscle over the people and preserving the legacy of “Saint Franklin Roosevelt.” Since that jerky bureaucrat stopped the sale of a 1933 double eagle Stacks’ auction in 1944 and confiscated the coin, it has been the policy of the government seize to these coins and sometimes run roughshod over the rule of law.
As a recent “COINage” article, “Double Eagle Seizure Sage” by Tom DeLorey, pointed out, the government should have lost the case when the Mint failed to respond within the 90 day clock to file a “complaint of judicial forfeiture” to validate its claim to the assets under the Civil Asset Forfeiture Reform Act of 2000 (CAFRA) (lifted from the COINage article). When the Mint failed to do that, under the advice of their own lawyers, the case should be been over, but the District Court ruled in favor of the government.
What difference does 12 ounces of gold mean to the Federal Government which owns 100s of millions of ounces of gold? NOTHING. What difference did the $3.5 million proceeds from the one 1933 double eagle that is legal to own matter to the government? NOTHING. Three point five million dollars gets lost in the rounding when the Federal Government keeps its books.
If the government had wanted to maximize its financial return, it would have given the coins back to the Langbord family. The government would have been able to collect capital gains taxes on those coins for an infinite period of time, each time one of those coins was sold. Instead the government spent a fortune on litigation to seize the coins.
This is all about power and the government’s desire to subvert private property rights when it feels like it, whether the government actions follow the rule of law or not. The implications of this could go far beyond 12 double eagles in the future. It is not hyperbole to say that there are forces in the Federal Government who would like to give themselves the power of a fascist state.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
The current issue, August, with pictures of the Denver Mint on the cover.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@BillJones said:
the powers at be have decided that the Cardinal 1794 is not the finest known, at least according the auction results.
I'm not sure to what you are referring Bill?
PCGS declared the “silver plug piece” to be a “Specimen – 66+,” and it sold for $10,000,000. I’m assuming the “Specimen” status combined with the 66+ grade makes it the finest known. The Cardinal coin is graded MS-66+.
Personally, I question the “Specimen” status. Yes, the coin was superbly stuck with tremendous detail given that 1794 Dollars are almost always weakly struck to degrees ranging from slight to severe. Still, why would the mint officials have selected a planchet that had been plugged and the adjusted for such a special coin? Where there no other planchets available or didn’t it matter to them? I simply pose the question.
Since I’ve never had the chance to view either of these coins personally on a close-up basis, I can only rely on the photos. The SP-66+ looks nicer in the photos, but I generally prefer coins without the adjustment marks, given the choice.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
PCGS declared the “silver plug piece” to be a “Specimen – 66+,” and it sold for $10,000,000. I’m assuming the “Specimen” status combined with the 66+ grade makes it the finest known. The Cardinal coin is graded MS-66+.
@BillJones said:
the powers at be have decided that the Cardinal 1794 is not the finest known, at least according the auction results.
I'm not sure to what you are referring Bill?
Personally, I question the “Specimen” status. Yes, the coin was superbly stuck with tremendous detail given that 1794 Dollars are almost always weakly struck to degrees ranging from slight to severe. Still, why would the mint officials have selected a planchet that had been plugged and the adjusted for such a special coin? Where there no other planchets available or didn’t it matter to them? I simply pose the question.
Since I’ve never had the chance to view either of these coins personally on a close-up basis, I can only rely on the photos. The SP-66+ looks nicer in the photos, but I generally prefer coins without the adjustment marks, given the choice.
Remember, the coin was struck in 1794. Prior to the striking of silver dollars, the Mint had only struck soft-metal copper coins, and none of those were the diameter of a silver dollar. The only silver dollar-sized pieces struck before the 1794 dollars were copper patterns of the 1794 dollar, and even though those two were struck out of soft copper, they showed weakness of strike - particularly in their centers.
Being base metals, the copper pieces were not held to the precise weight standard as was dictated by the Mint Act of 1792. Yet, the acceptance of silver coinage was dependent upon it precise metal content. You might recall seeing silver and gold coins of the era that were "regulated" and counterstruck by some trusted party who had measured the weight. Well, the adjustment marks and silver plugs of the early MInt visibly document the Mint regulating coinage to precise weight standards. Now, if the silver plug was just to raise the weight of the planchet, why was care taken to place the plug in the center of the coin? My opinion is that the plug was placed in the planchet to increase its weight AND to supply additional thickness to the central region where the highest relief of the obverse design opposed the highest relief of the reverse -- thereby improving the quality of the strike. How else would a hard silver planchet show a stronger strike than a soft copper planchet, when struck on the same coining press?
Yes, the coin was not struck to the standards of PR70DCAM, but not only was it the first dollar-sized silver coin to be produced by the Mint, it was also the first silver coin struck by the Mint. (The 1792 half dismes were produced outside of the Mint, the 1794 half dollars were first struck in December 1794, and the first 1794 half dimes were stuck in March 1795.)
You have said you have never examined the coin on a close-up basis, and so, undoubtedly, you have never examined the coin outside of its holder. I myself have, on multiple occasions. When seen out of the holder, the coin presents vivid prooflike reflective fields, with mirrors that challenge a DMPL Morgan dollar. The holder mutes that aspect of the coin, but it is there, and something always commented on by those who have seen the coin raw. Since there is no documentation of the production of proofs back in 1794, PCGS decided to call it "SP," just as they designated for the prooflike pieces of the 1964-1967 Special Mint Sets.
Do you question the status of the 1964-1967 SMS set coins being labeled by PCGS as "SP"? Fresh dies of the modern U.S. Mint frequently impart semi-prooflike to prooflike surfaces to the struck coins, just as a byproduct of the manufacture. How much more "Special" must it have been for the first Mint of the United States to create prooflike surfaces on the very first silver coin it struck, and isn't that worth its designation?
I cannot recall, but is it known for absolute certainty that the US Government didn't pick up the 1933 Farouk specimen, essentially at half price? Is it absolutely in private hands?
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64 Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
@7Jaguars said:
Wow, those are some highly speculative comments in the last 50 or so posts. The fact is that one can go out and get OVER 100 different 1794 specimen (BTW, with possibly MANY more in the woodwork). One cannot go and get a 1933 DE, be it one of the Switt family pieces, or one of the Smithsonian pieces. Let's then go there with rarity of the issue!
Good luck trying to find a 2nd specimen struck 1794 $FH in silver...let alone a SP66 CAC or higher grade. Far as it looks, that's unique. Specimen trumps the 125+ business strikes that probably exist for the 1794. As far as finding a buyable 1933 DE that's easy. Go out into the black market with your best choice of "coin insider" with a couple $MILL in untraceable CASH and I'm sure you'll have one of those within days/weeks/months....I could think of several top players who I would choose for such a search. While you're at it you can probably pick up a 1964-D peace dollar as well. Rarity of these issues is easy. One of them is currently UNIQUE in proof/specimen. No such thing with 1933 DE's. Remember that Secretary of the Treasury in 1933 William Windom supposedly owned 1 or more of the 1933 DE's as part of his coin collection. If so impossible or illegal to own, how did he get his?
What difference does 12 ounces of gold mean to the Federal Government which owns 100s of millions of ounces of gold? NOTHING. What difference did the $3.5 million proceeds from the one 1933 double eagle that is legal to own matter to the government? NOTHING. Three point five million dollars gets lost in the rounding when the Federal Government keeps its books.
You're assuming the US govt has clear title to the 260+ MILL oz of gold that is currently inventoried. Without a thorough review of all the bullion bank gold leasings/sales of the past 50 years there's no way to show the public who actually has legal title to the gold. The US govt/Treasury guards these transaction secrets tighter than they do control and technology of nuclear weapons or Top Secret SCI information....and for good reason.
What difference does 12 ounces of gold mean to the Federal Government which owns 100s of millions of ounces of gold? NOTHING. What difference did the $3.5 million proceeds from the one 1933 double eagle that is legal to own matter to the government? NOTHING. Three point five million dollars gets lost in the rounding when the Federal Government keeps its books.
You're assuming the US govt has clear title to the 260+ MILL oz of gold that is currently inventoried. Without a through review of all the bullion bank gold leasings/sales of the past 50 years there's no way to show the public who actually has legal title to the gold. The US govt/Treasury guards these transaction secrets tighter than they do control and technology of nuclear weapons or Top Secret SCI information....and for good reason.
If the entire financial health of the Federal Government is dependent upon 12 ounces of gold, we are all screwed.
The Langbord thing was a government power play plain and simple. If the government is that hard up gold, we'd have another confiscation program like we had in the 1930s. The Ninth Circuit Court would be ready and eager to support it.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
No, what was silly was you bringing into the argument about 12 ounces of US classic 90% gold coins vs. US published gold inventory of 260+ MILL oz. These are $2-$4 MILL coins, not bullion. As I said earlier, if these were just 1933 US silver dollars you can bet the witch hunt for them would never have reached the degree it did for 1933 DE's. And yes, the financial health of the US Treasury/US govt is semi-dependent on having those 260 MILL oz of gold in inventory ($320 BILL)....if only as a projection of power/wealth to the rest of the world's central banks. A sovereign nation still needs a sizable gold inventory to have a choice seat at the G20/G8 round tables. Their rules, not mine.
RR, you've missed my point and gone on to further speculation about how one might get a "back alley" example of the DE, which is not evidence of anything per se. I am sure we could come up with other 1794s, and MANY of them in comparison even though they not be specimen. Date for date, the comparo is a slam dunk in favour of the DE.
Non-collectors, or at least those I have talked to have no clue as to what is specimen, proof, or? and therefore the date is of tantamount importance to them if even that (type is probably good enough). In fact, that is who owns (evidently) the current ONLY legal-to-own 1933 DE.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
No, what was silly was you bringing into the argument about 12 ounces of US classic 90% gold coins vs. US published gold inventory of 260+ MILL oz. These are $2-$4 MILL coins,
Those coins are bullion so far as the government is concerned because the bullion seizure by "Saint Franklin Roosevelt" was the basis of the Langbord trial from the beginning. The government contended that X number of 1933 double eagles got out the Philadelphia Mint illegally. It doesn’t matter what they worth as collectors’ items because the government can’t sell them to the private sector. If the government tried, the Langbords would have a fresh basis for a lawsuit.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I vote for the Cardinal 1794 dollar, as I am still uncertain of the future of the 12 1933 Saints owned by the Switt/Langbord family.
As long as those Saints still exist they could saturate the market. If they are ever melted (God forbid!), then I will be swayed towards the 1933 Farouk example, as being more valuable.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
@Walkerfan said:
I vote for the Cardinal 1794 dollar, as I am still uncertain of the future of the 12 1933 Saints owned by the Switt/Langbord family.
As long as those Saints still exist they could saturate the market. If they are ever melted (God forbid!), then I will be swayed towards the 1933 Farouk example, as being more valuable.
None of those 1933 double eagles will be sold into the private sector during our lifetimes. The government might think it will be cool to bring to them to an ANA convention to show them off, but I for one would avoid even glancing at that display.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Never have been a great fan of the Saints. Many consider them to be the most beautiful coin produced by the Mint but there are so many common coins in the series that there is absolutely no rarity to the look itself. The 1794 though is visually stunning and scarce from the series standpoint. I would grab the Cardinal coin if given the choice and let the value issue sort itself out.
@tradedollarnut said: PCGS declared the “silver plug piece” to be a “Specimen – 66+,” and it sold for $10,000,000. I’m assuming the “Specimen” status combined with the 66+ grade makes it the finest known. The Cardinal coin is graded MS-66+.
Now I'm really confused...
I thought we were taking about the same coin all this time. > @Coinstartled said:
Never have been a great fan of the Saints. Many consider them to be the most beautiful coin produced by the Mint but there are so many common coins in the series that there is absolutely no rarity to the look itself. The 1794 though is visually stunning and scarce from the series standpoint. I would grab the Cardinal coin if given the choice and let the value issue sort itself out.
Hands down the Cardinal specimen in value and intrinsic and historic rarity.The 33 DE will always have "taint"' to it and the back story has been sullied.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I'm no lawyer, but I understand that the basic premise of our court system is based on precedent, and it's now been well established that there will only ever be one legally "monetized" 1933 Saint. The owner of the Farouk specimen can sleep well at night with confidence at this point, IMO. For that reason, I think this is the most valuable coin in all U.S. numismatics today. I say this objectively with no love for the coin, and no disrespect for TDN's amazing coin. Part of the equation is that rare gold coins typically sell for more money than comparable silver coins.
John Feigenbaum Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com) PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
@JohnF said:
I'm no lawyer, but I understand that the basic premise of our court system is based on precedent, and it's now been well established that there will only ever be one legally "monetized" 1933 Saint. The owner of the Farouk specimen can sleep well at night with confidence at this point, IMO. For that reason, I think this is the most valuable coin in all U.S. numismatics today. I say this objectively with no love for the coin, and no disrespect for TDN's amazing coin. Part of the equation is that rare gold coins typically sell for more money than comparable silver coins.
I understand your point, John, but what if the government sold a few of the 1933 Saints without "monetizing" them? Wouldn't this affect the price? If I owned the Farouk coin, that there will only be one legally "monetized" 1933 Saint is nice, but what about others that are out there, whether from the government or elsewhere, that are not "monetized"?
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Jaguars, how many back alley 1933's do you want? It's just a matter of money. You could NOT come up with another silver specimen 1794 $....let alone a 66 silver plug if you offered $10 MILL. You can dream up a scenario....but after 223 years if another one hasn't shown up by now, odds are extremely remote it will. The 1933's on the other hand were pushed away and hidden away on day 1. Could be hundreds of those out there just biding their time. We do have a very good idea what a specimen FH dollar looks like....the Amon Carter coin....the only one so designated. It's unlike all the others with mirrors close to a DMPL Morgan. Find me another one of those. How many 1933 DE's have proof-like mirrors and specimen striking? Uhh....none. I'll take a unique SPECIMEN and you can have 1 of 13 that is LEGAL.
Non collectors? What bearing do they have on $5-$10 MILL US coins? They won't know about either coin nor would they likely ever be buyers of either. We have no clue who currently owns the 1933 DE sold via the US Govt. It could in fact be the US Govt. Wouldn't that be a hoot? Since they could just print up the money for free to buy it at 50% discount, why wouldn't they? If it's a private collector, we don't know what there intentions were. But, you can be sure they were VERY unhappy when the Langbord coins showed up. If that were me, I'd have been crushed and left with an empty hole with the sole LEGAL specimen....and 12 others known. It might as well be a 1927-d. And until they are maybe someday melted(?), the owner is sitting on a pop 13-14+ coin....not the pop 3 that they bought into for $7+ MILL. What we do know is who has owned the 1794 $ SP66 and the reasons why. The currently only 1933 "LEGAL TO OWN" is a bunch of malarkey. Just ask the current owner if you don't believe me.
I would propose that in the next 10-50 yrs that some or all of the Langbord saints will be in private hands...and LEGAL to own. What the heck is the Govt going to do with 12 specimens? Some govt official with half a brain will figure it out eventually....despite what Bill Jones stated. The Secret Service confiscated 9 specimens and melted them all....or so they claimed...lol. What are the odds a couple of those went home with a SS agent while a 1928 Saint was "melted" in its place.....a LOT better than finding another SP66 1794 dollar. There are certainly more 1933 DE's out there. With each one taking an additional $300K to $500K "bite" out of the value of the LEGAL coin.
The "original" precedent from day 1 is that gosh darn Secretary of the US Treasury owned a 1933 saint....LEGALLY. How could it be otherwise? He's the ultimate boss over the US Mint! That to me has much more precedent than what transpired after Jan 1934. And I can't wait for paperwork to eventually show up that shows a 1933 DE was purchased legally from the Philly Mint.
@RichieURich said:
I understand your point, John, but what if the government sold a few of the 1933 Saints without "monetizing" them? Wouldn't this affect the price? If I owned the Farouk coin, that there will only be one legally "monetized" 1933 Saint is nice, but what about others that are out there, whether from the government or elsewhere, that are not "monetized"?
I'm not sure what the distinction is. If the gov't doesn't monetize the coins, they will not be legal tender, and therefore not legal to sell. And the rulings have been really clear on that. Every other scenario is a hypothetical, and I'm trying to look at facts only. The facts are, there is an extremely high likelihood that there will only ever be one legal-to-own 1933 Saint.
John Feigenbaum Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com) PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
@RichieURich said:
Lots of coins that are not legal tender are legal to sell.
How many of the 1913 Lib nickels were "monetized?" Any "cashier" receipts for those 5 coins? There's not even a formal mint record of them even being struck. They are about as non-LEGAL as you could get.
@RichieURich said:
Lots of coins that are not legal tender are legal to sell.
How many of the 1913 Lib nickels were "monetized?" Any "cashier" receipts for those 5 coins? There's not even a formal mint record of them even being struck. They are about as non-LEGAL as you could get.
No 5 cent coin was monetized. That was something reserved for gold. There is no comparison between the two.
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
I fully agree. There are plenty of aspects of the minting, storage, accessibility, and procurement of the 1933 DE's that would suggest they could have been legal to own. There's NONE of that for the 1913 Lib nickels....which are for now....fully legal to own. Ironic, isn't it?
@RichieURich said:
Lots of coins that are not legal tender are legal to sell.
How many of the 1913 Lib nickels were "monetized?" Any "cashier" receipts for those 5 coins? There's not even a formal mint record of them even being struck. They are about as non-LEGAL as you could get.
Has the Mint ever claimed these were struck by the Mint, or is it just other people thinking they were struck by the Mint?
If the Mint doesn't treat these as Mint creations, that could be one cause for differential treatment.
RR - that is some terrible logic IMO. Hearsay, speculation and supposition are not the same as the substantiated facts. Not sure how there are 13 DEs legal to own (that would be an incorrect statement).That goes to foundation, which represents your problem; show me the coins. On the other hand we KNOW that there are far more 1794 dollars extant, without resorting to any speculation. I challenge you to show me another confirmed '33 DE coin that is available to market right now.
In fact, you can not confirm the unique status of the 1794 dollar although it is apparently the only one available - the theoretic value would logically be affected by the presence of relatively so many other examples. If I were to descent to speculation as you have (& thus lose the validity of my argument) and stated that IF there were no other 1794s present, then I would agree with you.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
In view of the fact that a large majority here think that the 1794 dollar is worth more than the 1933 double eagle, it provides just another example of how condition rarity is more important for pricing than overall rarity. No matter how you view it, the double is rarer on an overall basis than the 1794 dollar. There are 125+, perhaps as many as 150, 1794 dollars. Despite the Langbord discovery there are nowhere near as many 1933 double eagles extant.
I know that other factors are involved with the price of an item. Clearly the 1794 dollar has a more impressive place in history than the 1933 double eagle, but as the last of its kind, the $20 gold piece is still of historic importance. If you were to go back to the coin markets of the 1960s and ‘70s, I think that the double eagle would probably catalog for more because overall rarity met more back then. Today, with third party grading and registry sets, the level of preservation has become more important.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Comments
Ok. That too shall pass. Barring docs - rabid pit bull.
Any more get out of jail free cases?
Possibly, and I suggested that the best papers from a collector's standpoint would be a cashier's receipt like exists for the 1933 eagle. If a cashier's receipt exists for a 1933 double eagle then all 1933 double eagles could become legal like all 1933 eagles.
An act of Congress retroactively legalizing all 1933 coinage ...with the ten returned to the family.
A signed directive from the Secretary of the Treasury returning the ten coins to the family and affirming that the Mint won't pursue future examples
Interesting point.
But definite for one case may not mean definite for all. Although I agree it would at least help greatly.
I've mentioned a few times it would be nice if the ANA was more closely involved with Congress. Imagine if the ANA membership wanted this and the ANA machinery was able to mobilize enough constituents to convince Congress
Point being - just about anything can happen..
With limited probability. Based on what I've seen of people wanting Lady Liberty back on coins, dealing with Chinese counterfeits, dealing with doctoring, dealing with gradeflation, etc. there can be a big difference between what some would like to happen and what actually happens.
Point taken
The 1794 SP66 Dollar has historical significance that the 1933 DE does not. There are at least 12-20 1933 DE's........it is just a problem that the government owns all of them except for one. I do not think that the government has a 1794 SP66 in their archieves, but it may be possible. The J-1776 would sell for more just for it's beauty. Even that said, the 1794 SP66 is the most significant coin historically.
OINK
Wow, those are some highly speculative comments in the last 50 or so posts. The fact is that one can go out and get OVER 100 different 1794 specimen (BTW, with possibly MANY more in the woodwork). One cannot go and get a 1933 DE, be it one of the Switt family pieces, or one of the Smithsonian pieces. Let's then go there with rarity of the issue!
Well, just Love coins, period.
They are both great coins and I would love to have either one
I cannot recall, is it known for absolute certainty that the US Government didn't pick up the 1933 Farouk specimen, essentially at half price? Is it absolutely in private hands?
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Good question. I believe that the buyer remains anonymous which seems unusual after 15 years.
Is it still on display in New York?
Latin American Collection
It is a possibility that the buyer is not a coin collector but thought it was interesting and rare, in which case the buyer may have less interest in publicity.
An important point that has not been made is the fact that the rarest coins aren't coins aren't always the most valuable.
For decades, the most expensive US coin was the 1804 dollar, with 15 known, even after the unique 1873CC half dime was discovered. The half dime only brought $632,500 at a time when 1804 dollars were worth several million each.
The rarest coins tend to be those with a few specimens available, NOT the unique ones. The Brasher Doubloon is another example. The availability (ability to own an example) plays an important part role in value. The coins have to become available at least once in a great while to bring the top prices.
Money has had nothing to do with any of the government's efforts to recover or sell the 1933 double eagles. It has to do with politics, exercising bureaucratic muscle over the people and preserving the legacy of “Saint Franklin Roosevelt.” Since that jerky bureaucrat stopped the sale of a 1933 double eagle Stacks’ auction in 1944 and confiscated the coin, it has been the policy of the government seize to these coins and sometimes run roughshod over the rule of law.
As a recent “COINage” article, “Double Eagle Seizure Sage” by Tom DeLorey, pointed out, the government should have lost the case when the Mint failed to respond within the 90 day clock to file a “complaint of judicial forfeiture” to validate its claim to the assets under the Civil Asset Forfeiture Reform Act of 2000 (CAFRA) (lifted from the COINage article). When the Mint failed to do that, under the advice of their own lawyers, the case should be been over, but the District Court ruled in favor of the government.
What difference does 12 ounces of gold mean to the Federal Government which owns 100s of millions of ounces of gold? NOTHING. What difference did the $3.5 million proceeds from the one 1933 double eagle that is legal to own matter to the government? NOTHING. Three point five million dollars gets lost in the rounding when the Federal Government keeps its books.
If the government had wanted to maximize its financial return, it would have given the coins back to the Langbord family. The government would have been able to collect capital gains taxes on those coins for an infinite period of time, each time one of those coins was sold. Instead the government spent a fortune on litigation to seize the coins.
This is all about power and the government’s desire to subvert private property rights when it feels like it, whether the government actions follow the rule of law or not. The implications of this could go far beyond 12 double eagles in the future. It is not hyperbole to say that there are forces in the Federal Government who would like to give themselves the power of a fascist state.
Bill Jones, you mention a recent “COINage” article, “Double Eagle Seizure Sage” by Tom DeLorey.
What issue is contains this article? Thanks!
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
The current issue, August, with pictures of the Denver Mint on the cover.
I'm not sure to what you are referring Bill?
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He's right. It's tied with the Neil coin, the Carter coin, the Knoxville coin, the Contursi coin and the Morelan coin. Damn
PCGS declared the “silver plug piece” to be a “Specimen – 66+,” and it sold for $10,000,000. I’m assuming the “Specimen” status combined with the 66+ grade makes it the finest known. The Cardinal coin is graded MS-66+.
Personally, I question the “Specimen” status. Yes, the coin was superbly stuck with tremendous detail given that 1794 Dollars are almost always weakly struck to degrees ranging from slight to severe. Still, why would the mint officials have selected a planchet that had been plugged and the adjusted for such a special coin? Where there no other planchets available or didn’t it matter to them? I simply pose the question.
Since I’ve never had the chance to view either of these coins personally on a close-up basis, I can only rely on the photos. The SP-66+ looks nicer in the photos, but I generally prefer coins without the adjustment marks, given the choice.
Show me a 1794$1 without adjustment marks and I'll show you a very rare coin indeed
PCGS declared the “silver plug piece” to be a “Specimen – 66+,” and it sold for $10,000,000. I’m assuming the “Specimen” status combined with the 66+ grade makes it the finest known. The Cardinal coin is graded MS-66+.
Now I'm really confused...
Remember, the coin was struck in 1794. Prior to the striking of silver dollars, the Mint had only struck soft-metal copper coins, and none of those were the diameter of a silver dollar. The only silver dollar-sized pieces struck before the 1794 dollars were copper patterns of the 1794 dollar, and even though those two were struck out of soft copper, they showed weakness of strike - particularly in their centers.
Being base metals, the copper pieces were not held to the precise weight standard as was dictated by the Mint Act of 1792. Yet, the acceptance of silver coinage was dependent upon it precise metal content. You might recall seeing silver and gold coins of the era that were "regulated" and counterstruck by some trusted party who had measured the weight. Well, the adjustment marks and silver plugs of the early MInt visibly document the Mint regulating coinage to precise weight standards. Now, if the silver plug was just to raise the weight of the planchet, why was care taken to place the plug in the center of the coin? My opinion is that the plug was placed in the planchet to increase its weight AND to supply additional thickness to the central region where the highest relief of the obverse design opposed the highest relief of the reverse -- thereby improving the quality of the strike. How else would a hard silver planchet show a stronger strike than a soft copper planchet, when struck on the same coining press?
Yes, the coin was not struck to the standards of PR70DCAM, but not only was it the first dollar-sized silver coin to be produced by the Mint, it was also the first silver coin struck by the Mint. (The 1792 half dismes were produced outside of the Mint, the 1794 half dollars were first struck in December 1794, and the first 1794 half dimes were stuck in March 1795.)
You have said you have never examined the coin on a close-up basis, and so, undoubtedly, you have never examined the coin outside of its holder. I myself have, on multiple occasions. When seen out of the holder, the coin presents vivid prooflike reflective fields, with mirrors that challenge a DMPL Morgan dollar. The holder mutes that aspect of the coin, but it is there, and something always commented on by those who have seen the coin raw. Since there is no documentation of the production of proofs back in 1794, PCGS decided to call it "SP," just as they designated for the prooflike pieces of the 1964-1967 Special Mint Sets.
Do you question the status of the 1964-1967 SMS set coins being labeled by PCGS as "SP"? Fresh dies of the modern U.S. Mint frequently impart semi-prooflike to prooflike surfaces to the struck coins, just as a byproduct of the manufacture. How much more "Special" must it have been for the first Mint of the United States to create prooflike surfaces on the very first silver coin it struck, and isn't that worth its designation?
@tradedollarnut @cardinal Do you guys know the answer to this?
I cannot recall, but is it known for absolute certainty that the US Government didn't pick up the 1933 Farouk specimen, essentially at half price? Is it absolutely in private hands?
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Good luck trying to find a 2nd specimen struck 1794 $FH in silver...let alone a SP66 CAC or higher grade. Far as it looks, that's unique. Specimen trumps the 125+ business strikes that probably exist for the 1794. As far as finding a buyable 1933 DE that's easy. Go out into the black market with your best choice of "coin insider" with a couple $MILL in untraceable CASH and I'm sure you'll have one of those within days/weeks/months....I could think of several top players who I would choose for such a search. While you're at it you can probably pick up a 1964-D peace dollar as well. Rarity of these issues is easy. One of them is currently UNIQUE in proof/specimen. No such thing with 1933 DE's. Remember that Secretary of the Treasury in 1933 William Windom supposedly owned 1 or more of the 1933 DE's as part of his coin collection. If so impossible or illegal to own, how did he get his?
You're assuming the US govt has clear title to the 260+ MILL oz of gold that is currently inventoried. Without a thorough review of all the bullion bank gold leasings/sales of the past 50 years there's no way to show the public who actually has legal title to the gold. The US govt/Treasury guards these transaction secrets tighter than they do control and technology of nuclear weapons or Top Secret SCI information....and for good reason.
If the entire financial health of the Federal Government is dependent upon 12 ounces of gold, we are all screwed.
The Langbord thing was a government power play plain and simple. If the government is that hard up gold, we'd have another confiscation program like we had in the 1930s. The Ninth Circuit Court would be ready and eager to support it.
No, what was silly was you bringing into the argument about 12 ounces of US classic 90% gold coins vs. US published gold inventory of 260+ MILL oz. These are $2-$4 MILL coins, not bullion. As I said earlier, if these were just 1933 US silver dollars you can bet the witch hunt for them would never have reached the degree it did for 1933 DE's. And yes, the financial health of the US Treasury/US govt is semi-dependent on having those 260 MILL oz of gold in inventory ($320 BILL)....if only as a projection of power/wealth to the rest of the world's central banks. A sovereign nation still needs a sizable gold inventory to have a choice seat at the G20/G8 round tables. Their rules, not mine.
RR, you've missed my point and gone on to further speculation about how one might get a "back alley" example of the DE, which is not evidence of anything per se. I am sure we could come up with other 1794s, and MANY of them in comparison even though they not be specimen. Date for date, the comparo is a slam dunk in favour of the DE.
Non-collectors, or at least those I have talked to have no clue as to what is specimen, proof, or? and therefore the date is of tantamount importance to them if even that (type is probably good enough). In fact, that is who owns (evidently) the current ONLY legal-to-own 1933 DE.
Well, just Love coins, period.
Those coins are bullion so far as the government is concerned because the bullion seizure by "Saint Franklin Roosevelt" was the basis of the Langbord trial from the beginning. The government contended that X number of 1933 double eagles got out the Philadelphia Mint illegally. It doesn’t matter what they worth as collectors’ items because the government can’t sell them to the private sector. If the government tried, the Langbords would have a fresh basis for a lawsuit.
I vote for the Cardinal 1794 dollar, as I am still uncertain of the future of the 12 1933 Saints owned by the Switt/Langbord family.
As long as those Saints still exist they could saturate the market. If they are ever melted (God forbid!), then I will be swayed towards the 1933 Farouk example, as being more valuable.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
None of those 1933 double eagles will be sold into the private sector during our lifetimes. The government might think it will be cool to bring to them to an ANA convention to show them off, but I for one would avoid even glancing at that display.
Never have been a great fan of the Saints. Many consider them to be the most beautiful coin produced by the Mint but there are so many common coins in the series that there is absolutely no rarity to the look itself. The 1794 though is visually stunning and scarce from the series standpoint. I would grab the Cardinal coin if given the choice and let the value issue sort itself out.
I thought we were taking about the same coin all this time. > @Coinstartled said:
Hands down the Cardinal specimen in value and intrinsic and historic rarity.The 33 DE will always have "taint"' to it and the back story has been sullied.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I'm no lawyer, but I understand that the basic premise of our court system is based on precedent, and it's now been well established that there will only ever be one legally "monetized" 1933 Saint. The owner of the Farouk specimen can sleep well at night with confidence at this point, IMO. For that reason, I think this is the most valuable coin in all U.S. numismatics today. I say this objectively with no love for the coin, and no disrespect for TDN's amazing coin. Part of the equation is that rare gold coins typically sell for more money than comparable silver coins.
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Personally I would rather have the unique 1873-CC N/Arr Dime.
I understand your point, John, but what if the government sold a few of the 1933 Saints without "monetizing" them? Wouldn't this affect the price? If I owned the Farouk coin, that there will only be one legally "monetized" 1933 Saint is nice, but what about others that are out there, whether from the government or elsewhere, that are not "monetized"?
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Jaguars, how many back alley 1933's do you want? It's just a matter of money. You could NOT come up with another silver specimen 1794 $....let alone a 66 silver plug if you offered $10 MILL. You can dream up a scenario....but after 223 years if another one hasn't shown up by now, odds are extremely remote it will. The 1933's on the other hand were pushed away and hidden away on day 1. Could be hundreds of those out there just biding their time. We do have a very good idea what a specimen FH dollar looks like....the Amon Carter coin....the only one so designated. It's unlike all the others with mirrors close to a DMPL Morgan. Find me another one of those. How many 1933 DE's have proof-like mirrors and specimen striking? Uhh....none. I'll take a unique SPECIMEN and you can have 1 of 13 that is LEGAL.
Non collectors? What bearing do they have on $5-$10 MILL US coins? They won't know about either coin nor would they likely ever be buyers of either. We have no clue who currently owns the 1933 DE sold via the US Govt. It could in fact be the US Govt. Wouldn't that be a hoot? Since they could just print up the money for free to buy it at 50% discount, why wouldn't they? If it's a private collector, we don't know what there intentions were. But, you can be sure they were VERY unhappy when the Langbord coins showed up. If that were me, I'd have been crushed and left with an empty hole with the sole LEGAL specimen....and 12 others known. It might as well be a 1927-d. And until they are maybe someday melted(?), the owner is sitting on a pop 13-14+ coin....not the pop 3 that they bought into for $7+ MILL. What we do know is who has owned the 1794 $ SP66 and the reasons why. The currently only 1933 "LEGAL TO OWN" is a bunch of malarkey. Just ask the current owner if you don't believe me.
I would propose that in the next 10-50 yrs that some or all of the Langbord saints will be in private hands...and LEGAL to own. What the heck is the Govt going to do with 12 specimens? Some govt official with half a brain will figure it out eventually....despite what Bill Jones stated. The Secret Service confiscated 9 specimens and melted them all....or so they claimed...lol. What are the odds a couple of those went home with a SS agent while a 1928 Saint was "melted" in its place.....a LOT better than finding another SP66 1794 dollar. There are certainly more 1933 DE's out there. With each one taking an additional $300K to $500K "bite" out of the value of the LEGAL coin.
The "original" precedent from day 1 is that gosh darn Secretary of the US Treasury owned a 1933 saint....LEGALLY. How could it be otherwise? He's the ultimate boss over the US Mint! That to me has much more precedent than what transpired after Jan 1934. And I can't wait for paperwork to eventually show up that shows a 1933 DE was purchased legally from the Philly Mint.
I'm not sure what the distinction is. If the gov't doesn't monetize the coins, they will not be legal tender, and therefore not legal to sell. And the rulings have been really clear on that. Every other scenario is a hypothetical, and I'm trying to look at facts only. The facts are, there is an extremely high likelihood that there will only ever be one legal-to-own 1933 Saint.
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PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
Lots of coins that are not legal tender are legal to sell.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
How many of the 1913 Lib nickels were "monetized?" Any "cashier" receipts for those 5 coins? There's not even a formal mint record of them even being struck. They are about as non-LEGAL as you could get.
No 5 cent coin was monetized. That was something reserved for gold. There is no comparison between the two.
I fully agree. There are plenty of aspects of the minting, storage, accessibility, and procurement of the 1933 DE's that would suggest they could have been legal to own. There's NONE of that for the 1913 Lib nickels....which are for now....fully legal to own. Ironic, isn't it?
It's not ironic, it's made of nickel. Always important to keep our coin composition straight.
Has the Mint ever claimed these were struck by the Mint, or is it just other people thinking they were struck by the Mint?
If the Mint doesn't treat these as Mint creations, that could be one cause for differential treatment.
RR - that is some terrible logic IMO. Hearsay, speculation and supposition are not the same as the substantiated facts. Not sure how there are 13 DEs legal to own (that would be an incorrect statement).That goes to foundation, which represents your problem; show me the coins. On the other hand we KNOW that there are far more 1794 dollars extant, without resorting to any speculation. I challenge you to show me another confirmed '33 DE coin that is available to market right now.
In fact, you can not confirm the unique status of the 1794 dollar although it is apparently the only one available - the theoretic value would logically be affected by the presence of relatively so many other examples. If I were to descent to speculation as you have (& thus lose the validity of my argument) and stated that IF there were no other 1794s present, then I would agree with you.
Well, just Love coins, period.
In view of the fact that a large majority here think that the 1794 dollar is worth more than the 1933 double eagle, it provides just another example of how condition rarity is more important for pricing than overall rarity. No matter how you view it, the double is rarer on an overall basis than the 1794 dollar. There are 125+, perhaps as many as 150, 1794 dollars. Despite the Langbord discovery there are nowhere near as many 1933 double eagles extant.
I know that other factors are involved with the price of an item. Clearly the 1794 dollar has a more impressive place in history than the 1933 double eagle, but as the last of its kind, the $20 gold piece is still of historic importance. If you were to go back to the coin markets of the 1960s and ‘70s, I think that the double eagle would probably catalog for more because overall rarity met more back then. Today, with third party grading and registry sets, the level of preservation has become more important.