Ultra condition coins
tradedollarnut
Posts: 20,200 ✭✭✭✭✭
So defined as a finest known example for the date head and shoulders above the rest. Examples include:
The gem Pacquet $20.... finest known by 6 grades?
Oreville's 1875-S $20 ....finest known by 2.5 grades?
My 1873-CC seated dollar.... finest known by 4 grades
Any others 2 or more grades above the second best?
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Comments
My former 1867-s seated quarter PCGS MS67 CAC. Next best are a pair of MS64's.
Jim Pryor 1855-s half dollar was MS67 at one time. Could be 66 today. That's 2-3 pts above the next 64.
1845-0 dime PCGS MS69. 7 pts above next highest slabbed 62. Though a couple raw 63/64 coins suspected.
1843-0 dime MS65 - 2 pts better
1859-s dime MS65 - 2 pts better
Newman 1840-0 nd quarter - MS67 - 2 pts better.
1841-0 quarter MS67 - 3 pts better. This first popped up in the later 1970's as part of NERCG Fund I.
Eliasberg 1855-0 quarter NGC MS67 - 2-3 pts finer than anything else.
Eliasberg 1864-s quarter was NGC MS68, might be 67 now. Still 3 pts finer.
Eliasberg 1894-s $5 gold was NGC MS69....now probably a 68. That's 4-5 points above next best.
1858 $10 gold MS64 - 3 pts better.
Should be plenty of examples in the seated, bust coinage space. No doubt some other Eliasberg gold coins in the mix, especially the superb gem branch mints that John Clapp picked up in the 1890's to early 1900's.
Looks like the 1799 Large Cent exhibits something kind of like this. PCGS has 1 top pop MS 61 and the next highest PCGS is an XF 45. There is 1 NGC MS 62 and the next NGC is a VF. It's like a 2 finest and then a massive drop.
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I recently picked up a 1840 50C Obv. Die Crack FS-401 Reverse of 1839 PCGS AU50, the next lowest is a VG8...that is a pretty good spread!
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$5 1876 cc - PCGS-66, finest known gold coin from Carson City of any denomination, only one other unc, NGC MS-61. Ex. Eliasberg / battle born
$10 1879 cc - NGC-62, only known uncirculated coin of this issue.
$20 1870 cc - AU 58, stolen in shipment to heritage auctions several years ago. Others are AU 55 and lower. Not sure if that counts as one grade or three points.
That's from memory, but I think that there are a few more.
Wayne Miller 1886-O Morgan
Actually, the NGC MS62 1799 Cent was crossed over to PCGS, and is one and the same as the PCGS MS61 coin. (Dan Holmes acquired the coin in the NGC MS62 holder, and when he sold the coins through the Goldbergs, the Goldbergs got everything crossed over to PCGS.) That being said, there is also an PCGS-AU58 coin for the year 1799, with the die variety having the overdate 1799/8. According to experts of the Early American Coppers club, the AU58 1799/8 is superior to the MS61 1799. Go figure!
1797 13 Stars Half Dime. Only UNC is a MS63 I think. Choice AU is closest...
siliconvalleycoins.com
Then there's the monster 1849 Open Wreath Gold Dollar in PCGS MS69 as the Pop Top, with the next one down being one single MS67.
Thanks for the education. Gotta love inaccurate population reports. I suppose the overdate counts which would mean that my example is less good. That's definitely interesting though.
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I broke out the battle born catalog -
1875 cc $5 - finest NGC-63, second finest PCGS-61
1871 cc $10 - finest PCGS-62+, second finest NGC-60
1874 cc $10 - finest NGC-65, second finest PCGS-63
1881 cc $10 - finest NGC-64, second finest MS-62
1889 cc $1 - finest PCGS-68, second finest MS-65
1870 cc 25c - finest NGC-64, second finest AU-55
1872 cc 25c - finest NGC-66, second finest PCGS-62
1873 cc 25c NA - finest NGC-66, second finest PCGS-64
1872 cc 10c - finest PCGS-63, second finest PCGS-58
1873 cc 10c NA - unique, so this ones kind of cheating. :-)
These might have changed in the past five years.
1864-S $5 in 65, next finest is a 53
Latin American Collection
I can add a few more Liberty Double Eagles to the list:
The Eric Newman 1797 B-2, BB-72 9X7 Stars Small Letters Reverse Dollar is the only Mint State graded example known of this date and type. It was graded NGC Mint State-62 in the Newman Sale.
Here is a photo prior to the sale, and when this coin was "raw."
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Photo courtesy of W. David Perkins_.
W. David Perkins Numismatics - http://www.davidperkinsrarecoins.com/ - 25+ Years ANA, ANS, NLG, NBS, LM JRCS, LSCC, EAC, TAMS, LM CWTS, CSNS, FUN
Do Brits count? 1893 Jubilee Sixpence PCGS 64, next grade F15.
Well, just Love coins, period.
The Newman coin was listed as being Mint State-62 in Dave Bowers 1992 Encyclopedia of Silver Dollars. It was graded by NGC as MS64 in the Newman Sale.
1838 - C $5 in PCGS 63, only MS known.
@MrEureka and my old 1858 $10 PCGS MS64, then Warren Miller/David Hall/Simpson. I wish Jesse hadn't dipped this for Warren.
Next is a ratty NGC 61
Sadly, the Pryor 55-S 50c is now an icky dipped 67.
@cardinal replied, The Newman coin was listed as being Mint State-62 in Dave Bowers 1992 Encyclopedia of Silver Dollars. It was graded by NGC as MS64 in the Newman Sale. My mistake (calling it NGC MS62).
Thanks @cardinal !
W. David Perkins Numismatics - http://www.davidperkinsrarecoins.com/ - 25+ Years ANA, ANS, NLG, NBS, LM JRCS, LSCC, EAC, TAMS, LM CWTS, CSNS, FUN
The MS 65+ 1864-S $5. Next highest graded is "AU".
Now that's just wrong. Sad to hear it. And here I thought stuff like that only happened to superb gem 1893-s Morgan dollars. What are people thinking? I think Marc Emory had his hands on that 55-s back in the 1970's before Pryor got it. Marc seemed to run across his fair share of "ultimate condition" coins.
In the Liberty Capped Half Dollar world, two potential winners from the Redbook set.
1817/4 PCGS AU53 Eliasberg is followed by Pogue 1817/4 in PCGS VF35 (four grading tiers) and the really impossible 1812 O-110b single leaf with 10 to 12 known. Finest Known is my PCGS MS63 and second finest known is a recently discovered PCGS AU53 that improved upon the PCGS XF40 third place finisher (six grading tiers)!
Five of the R5+ and R6 or better rare die marriages in Capped Halves are represented by a single mint state example tom my knowledge. e.g., 1827 LL O-137 R.6 in PCGS MS62 (2nd finest PCGS AU55), 1831 O-120 R.6 in PCGS MS62 (2nd finest NGC AU53), 1827 O-144 R5+ PCGS MS62 (next PCGS AU58), 1828 O-123 R5+ PCGS MS64 (next PCGS AU55), 1833 O-115 R5+ PCGS MS63 (next NGC AU55). These all have trueviews in the top complete die marriage set in the registry.
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Possibly the Eliasberg-Bass 1860-S $3 Gold. It was graded raw for the 1982 auction as MS-65 and sold for $20,900. PCGS has an estimated grade of MS-64 in the registry while the next highest graded coin is MS-62.
It is still raw in the Bass collection:
hbrf.org/coin-collection/coin/hbcc-4013/
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"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
There are either 3 or 4 1838-C $5 with the Pogue MS 63 the finest. I have seen two others (both NGC) a 60 and a 61. Doug Winter has images of an NGC 60 on his coinapedia.
The lower the certified population the more likely this is to happen.
The Byron Reed gem unc 1864 $2.5 comes to mind.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
If you meant 3 or 4 are in MInt State slabs, the correct answer is 3. And Doug would tell you, as would I, that neither of the NGC coins are true MS.
Here's Heritage's picture of the reverse:
I've examined the coin in hand, and it is very frosty. Greg Reynold's article on that session of the Newman sale commented that both he (Greg) and Richard Burdick considered it to be of higher technical grade than the BB-71 coin that sold as NGC-MS64+ (and now part of TDN's epic Early Dollar Set as PCGS-MS64). The next grade down for that die variety is the PCGS-AU58 coin that I sold in June 2005, and which now resides with the Thaler Collection.
The BB-72 die variety is plagued with weakly struck specimens -- especially on the reverse -- as the reverse die was used in striking coins dated 1795 and 1796. Accordingly, the dies would not strike up coins as sharply and as lustrous as fresh dies would have, so these coins start out with weakness in that regard.
Perhaps it was dipped long ago (Col. Green seemed to have done that to a lot of his coins), but if so, it was just lightly, as the surfaces and luster do not seem to be impaired to any noticeable extent.
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The Eliasberg-Pogue 1825/4 $5 Gold would qualify. It was graded raw for the 1982 auction as Proof-60 and sold for $220,000. PCGS has now graded it as a business strike MS-64. It sold for $940,000 in the Pogue auction.
One of only two known, the other has an estimated PCGS grade of XF-45 on pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/8134 . It is or was NGC AU-50.
Pogue auction listing:
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-4HYHZ
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"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
_Greg Reynold's article on that session of the Newman sale commented that both he (Greg) and Richard Burdick considered it to be of higher technical grade than the BB-71 coin that sold as NGC-MS64+ (and now part of TDN's epic Early Dollar Set as PCGS-MS64). _
The variety didn't matter to me - I was going after the best coin for the date no matter what. IMO, I did not grade that one 64 at all.
I completely understand your opinion. Your 1797 BB-71 is an early die state coin with an amazing strike, and a superlative example for a date collection. The Newman BB-72 doesn't come close to yours in terms of overall strike, but it is heads and shoulders above any 1796, 1797, or 1798 small eagle dollar that has the small letters reverse -- except for your Monster Gem 1796 Small Date, Small Letters dollar!
1832 half eagle 12 stars PCGS MS 63, AU 50 is next.
1825/4 half eagle PCGS 64, XF 45 is next.
1796 quarter eagle no stars PCGS 65, PCGS 62+ next
1808 quarter eagle PCGS 65, PCGS 63 next
This is a 1798 NC-1. I know that this coin looks like a piece damaged junk to some people but it is a rare Sheldon variety with low condition census. This piece grades EF-40 with damage. The runner up for the variety grades VG and looks a bit scruffy for the grade.
This coin was one in a group of five otherwise ordinary large cents on the Worthy Coin Board in Boston back in the late 1980s. The group opened at $100 on the board and ultimately was bid up to over $20,000.
An, no it's not mine and never was. I just got a chance to take a color slide of it many years ago.
WDP:
Cardinal:
This is an aspect that I discuss in the article that Cardinal nicely mentioned above. 'Some of the imperfections in the strike of this coin may give the impression that this coin has friction or disturbances that it just does not have. ...' The Newman BB72-9x7SL 'may to some exhibit an illusion of having friction as Miss Liberty and the eagle are weakly struck on the Newman Collection ‘Small Letters’ 1797 and are relatively more sharply struck on the Newman ‘Ten by Six’ 1797.'
I emphasize positive characteristics of the Newman BB-72 9x7-SL, in that article.
U.S. Silver Dollars of 1797
Cardinal:
Yes, both the Newman 1797-10x6 (BB71) and the Newman 1797-9x7-SL (BB72) were dipped in the past. Either the 9x7 was dipped "lightly," as Cardinal says, or it just recovered really well. Some coins recover better from dippings from others, due to a combination of factors. The orange-russet and green outer tones are terrific and contrast well with the luster in the centers of the Newman 1797-9x7-SL (BB72). The brown-russet and dirty-gray tones on the Newman-Morelan BB71 1797-10x6 are natural, but are just not as enticing as the tones on the Newman 1797-9x7-SL.
TDN:
Cardinal:
I, too, understand TDN's view.
Both coins exhibit many imperfections in the center of the respective obverse, especially on the face, neck and chest. IMO, the 1797-10x6 has slightly more serious negative issues in this regard, including a gash on her nose, an annoying gash very close to her eye, and lots of indentations on her jaw+neck+chest, along with some friction on Miss Liberty's chest and shoulder. It is true that the 1797BB72-9x6-SL has more indentations in Miss Liberty's hair, yet these are very small. I do not notice imperfections in her hair nearly as much as I notice imperfections on Miss Liberty's face, neck and chest. It is possible that JA was bothered by the somewhat vertical string of very small contact marks in the central reverse of the 1797BB72-9x6-SL. However, exceptional luster in the same vicinity overwhelms those, IMO.
There will never be unanimous conclusions regarding the precise weights of positive and negative factors in establishing the grades of coins. I understand why both coins were certified as grading in the 64 range.
The Fabulous Eric Newman Collection, Part 7: Gem Quality Early U.S. Silver Dollars
I'll try and list a few I've bought & sold, conserved, or graded off the top of my head.
1794 1C S-101 PCGS MS62BN - Newly discovered - the next finest coin is Naftzger's coin, which is a liberally graded PCGS 50.
1849 $5 Pacific Company PCGS AU58 - The Smithsonian's example is an AU50 and there's an XF45 with tooling on it out there - that's everything we know of, other than an XFish coin stolen from Dupont.
1855 $50 Wass Molitor NGC MS64 (ex-Garrett) - PCGS estimates the grade of this one as MS65, and I could see a 66 on it, but it was graded once, years ago. There are a pair of 63s out there, both of which are impressive, but not even on the same planet as this coin.
ND $2 1/2 C Bechtler Beaded Border K-5 PCGS MS63 - ex-Allen - The next nicest coin is in an MS62 holder, but wouldn't grade today, due to altered surfaces. Seeing this coin for the first time was a legitimate HOLY SHIT moment for me. Probably the single coolest Bechtler on earth. There are a couple other Bechtlers that are much nicer than the next piece, but I think this one is the big dog for the whole series.
1849 $5 Mass & Cal PCGS MS63 - ex-Brand. I upgraded this one from NGC MS61 for my client - the next nicest graded coin is an AU58 (it's also fake, but don't tell anyone I said that). This one is really cool, with deep toning and fully prooflike surfaces.
1851 $50 RE Humbert 880-Thousandths (K.5) NGC MS65 - Accurately graded, and the next nicest coin is an MS62. This one was dug by a bottle collector in San Francisco in 1973, and kept in a shoebox until I removed the sediment that had protected the coin since it went into the ground. I couldn't believe the coin once the crud came off.
1849 $2 1/2 Mormon PCGS MS63 - I got it into a PCGS 62 holder and flopped it for a ridiculous profit a day after I bought it. The next nicest coin is an MS61, and it's solidly 2 1/2 point nicer than that. I should have held out for the extra point.
1860 $20 Clark Gruber PCGS SP64 - The next nicest coin is an MS6. I got it to go from NGC MS64 to SP64, and the coin was later crossed. I'm pretty sure that despite it being an incredible coin, this one is cursed - everyone who touches it ends up miserable.
1861 $5 Clark Gruber PCGS MS63 - I'm sure the other 63 PCGS lists is the same coin, as is the NGC MS63 - the next nicest coin is an MS61. This one's a monster, and really underrated with luster.
1652 6P Pine Tree PCGS MS65 - The next nicest coin is a PCGS/CAC MS63 that looked a little worn to me when I saw it. This isn't - it looks like it was struck last week.
1737 Higley Three Hammers/VALVE OF 3P PCGS VF35 - Should be in an XF40 holder, and the next nicest coin is an AG03, then a PO01.
1843 50C PCGS MS66+ - There are a three 65s in the pop report, but they're not within a point of this coin, which NGC called a 67.
1873 50C No Arrows/Open 3 PCGS MS63 - There are a pair of 62s (both of which I've handled) which are both former AU58s. This coin was graded MS63 in 1986 by PCGS, then wound up in a proof holder across the street.
1799 S$1 B-7 PCGS MS62 - Newly discovered - the next nicest coin is a mid-grade AU that's dipped and retoned.
1878 S$1 Vam-9 PCGS SP63CAM - The first Morgan Dollars officially struck, and this one is the only example of the first ten specimen strikes known in private hands. The next nicest VAM-9 is an MS61 - most are much lower grade.
1878-S S$1 Long Nock PCGS MS65PL - The next nicest coin is an MS62. This one is almost certainly one of the Specimen coins struck during the striking ceremony.
1891-CC S$1 Morgan MS68PL - Two points better than the next PL, Three better than the next DMPL. Pretty cool.
1865-S $5 ex-Brother Jonathan PCGS MS64 - The next nicest coin is AU58, and this piece would probably MS65 today.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Ah, yes, the Lelan Rogers specimen! A wonderful piece, and easily the finest known of the variety. I'm just not sure it would be called "Newly" discovered. It was included in Roger's collection, auctioned off in 1995, and then shortly thereafter it became part of the Cardinal Collection of Early Dollars.
I didn't know about the Rogers coin - this one is actually a B-7a that came out of the woodwork. I guess neither one is the only Unc. Rats...
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Always wondered where the 1848-O $10 in PCGS MS66 that sold in auction back in 1994 ended up.
Next grade down are three specimens graded MS64
Morgan Dollars: 1889-CC MS 68 next closest MS 65
1896-S MS 69 next closest MS 67
I wonder if these two were part of the PCGS exhibit at the
Chicago ANA 1991.
Would be nice to see something similar at a future ANA.
IIRC, bought at that sale by Greg Roberts of Spectrum
It's now in a type set collection where the all the coins are rarities or just great coins.
Tibor:
At the moment, I am not prepared to comment on that 1896-S. I will state, unequivocally, that this 1889-CC was not on display anywhere in 1991. It was in a bank vault in Baltimore. This is the Eliasberg 1889-CC.
When it was auctioned by Bowers & Merena in NY in April 1997, I was sitting somewhat near the late Jack Lee, who then bought this coin for $462,000 an astonishing price at the time. The previous record for a Morgan was the $357,500 paid for the Norweb 1893-S at the Norweb III sale, in the same room in New York, during November 1988.
This Eliasberg 1889-CC was auctioned by Stack's-Bowers for $881,250 in November 2013. Although the Vermeule 1893-S has privately sold for more, this is the auction record for a Morgan dollar. I cover auction data for Morgans in the following article:
CAC buys Eliasberg 1893-S Morgan Silver Dollar for $646,250 at auction in Las Vegas
As for the quality of the coin, the Eliasberg 1889-CC is way ahead of any other 1889-CC that I have seen. At the moment, I do not recollect a PCGS graded 65 1889-CC. I have seen two that have been graded as 65 ATS, including the one in that complete Morgan collection that Bob Green sold to Mark Yaffe at the ANA Convention in 2008. I covered the sale of that collection, somewhere. Not long afterwards, the 1893-S in that deal appeared in a Spectrum-B&M auction. In the gem quality range, the 1889-CC is much rarer than the 1893-S, though the 1893-S is much scarcer in general.
Insightful10@gmail.com
1992 Close AM Lincoln: 1MS67Rd; 3 at MS64Rd.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
There is a single coin listed at MS 65 listed in the PCGS
Pop Report. This is my source of information. Thank you
for responding to my post. The date I am referring to is the
1889-CC.
From Regulated:
1849 $5 Mass & Cal PCGS MS63 - ex-Brand. I upgraded this one from NGC MS61 for my client - the next nicest graded coin is an AU58 (it's also fake, but don't tell anyone I said that). This one is really cool, with deep toning and fully prooflike surfaces.
This coin is beyond stunning.
Tibor:
I know that Tibor was referring to the 1889-CC Morgan. I provide some history of the Eliasberg 1889-CC in my post above. I have seen that piece on multiple occasions.
Therein, I referred to the highly certified, 1889-CC Morgans that I have seen. I was not claiming that a PCGS certified MS-65 does not exist. I was indicating that I do not have a recollection of ever having seen an 1889-CC Morgan that was PCGS graded as MS-65 before I saw it. One of the NGC graded MS-65 pieces could have crossed. Do any members know the history or current whereabouts of the 1889-CC Morgan that is PCGS graded as MS-65?
Regulated:
There are not a large number of famous examples of extremely rare coins that I have never seen. Unfortunately for me, this is one of them. PCGS CoinFacts reports three auction appearances of this coin, apparently. By chance, I missed all three. During that same era, I covered many ANR auctions for Numismatic News newspaper, but not the ANR event in January 2004. I was not active in coins in August 2001 and I did not fly to CA for the May 1999 Brother Jonathan event, though I wish I had done so. I really like the concept of an extreme condition rarity of a coin that is rare in all grades.
Have any members of this forum, other than Regulated, seen this coin?
Did Regulated sell it to someone who is building a set of Liberty Head Half Eagles?