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1850-0 half dime - from 66 cac gold to 67 cac green - and loses money.
roadrunner
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What was unexpected is that it dropped in value on this "upgrade".....$14,100 to $11,456....in just 4 months. Was the owner looking for a 67+?
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It has terrible eye appeal.
Well, one thing the owner did wrong was that they sent it in using the Reconsideration service and then never "cleansed" the certification number with a Regrade. The reason I write this is that the cert number is the same in the before and after shots, which happens when a coin receives an upgrade using Reconsideration. Therefore, anyone who would consult PCGS CoinFacts for auction history of an MS67 would find this coin listed on the cert verification page with a link to its MS66 auction listing. That would turn some folks off right away. Also, the mystique of the gold CAC sticker was now gone and the fantasy that this was an MS68 sitting in an MS66 holder would be largely scuttled.
The correct strategy, in my opinion, would have been to use Reconsideration followed by Regrade to generate a new cert number that would not so easily link this coin to its former grade. It appears that now this cert number is inactive so someone must have followed that path.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Based on the photos, I would question the coin even at the 66 level due to the distracting brown spot at 5:00 on the obverse. I know coins can grade MS66 with a few carbon spots these days, but I personally am not a buyer of such coins at that grade level. I also think it has been dipped, and the secondary toning is coming back as a thin, spotty, coffee-colored film around the rims. I would imagine that the coin must having booming luster and PL surfaces in order for it to get graded MS67 and earn a green bean as well. Overall, it's still a heck of a nice 1850-O half dime, but it would look a lot nicer to me in a PCGS MS65 holder at a MS65 price.
Putting this coin in a public auction was a risky move, IMHO. There are probably only a few collectors assembling Seated half dime sets at the MS66-MS67 grade level. They need to see it and decide to bid, or it's quite likely to end up as a money-loser. The price of the coin could easily rise (or drop) by 50% in the next auction appearance just because one extra person decided to bid on it (or not). These are the breaks with thin markets. It also won't benefit from bids from crackout/upgrade artists because there is already a public record of it upgrading from MS66 to MS67, and it is reasonable to assume it will not make MS68 any time soon due to the obverse spot. Subtract the 17.5% juice from the auction result, and you have a recipe for an ice-cold bath.
If you look at the True View, it looks nothing like the auction photos. In fact, when I was looking at them all, I thought the True View MS67 had to be a different coin, until the auction description noted it was ex-Garder....the same Gold CAC coin that morphed into the pop 1 PCGS MS67 CAC. The obv spot doesn't look nearly as obvious here. In fact, you'd miss it based on those photos only. The mark under the "H" is much more obvious as is the toning blob between "CA" on the reverse. Different photos...different results. It does have that look of secondary toning.
http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/4346
In looking at all the auction photos of gem 50-0 half dimes, it seems it takes a solid/CAC MS66 coin today to be an all there gem. Probably true across the entire 5c-50c spectrum. 65's and low end 66's don't quite measure up.
Rhedden, it just so happens I have a MS65 1850-0 half dime (NGC 65 CAC) that I bought back in 1988. It graded MS65 back in 1988. Deeper blue/rose toning but 100% no questions original. I see the coins graded higher than this one and there really isn't a ton of difference - certainly not at 2X to 4X the price.
Here's a so-so MS66. 2nd coin a more pleasing MS66 CAC with some light spots. Not sure if the 2nd one is secondary toning as well.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/seated-half-dimes/1850-o-h10c-ms66-pcgs/a/1216-3750.s?hdnJumpToLot=1x=0&y=0
https://coins.ha.com/itm/seated-half-dimes/1850-o-h10c-ms66-pcgs-cac-v-2/a/1229-98146.s?hdnJumpToLot=1x=0&y=0
I went into the Coin Facts page to research all the 65-67 examples of this date....anything fetching over $2500. And I didn't use the cert numbers at all, just the photos and auction links. It was easy to link up the $11K green CAC and $14K gold CAC coins. A new cert # wouldn't have fooled very many who were interested in the finest graded. To make things fuzzier, there is still another gold CAC MS66 out there. Coin Facts makes it pretty hard to hide auction history, especially at Heritage where photos are almost always linked up for important type coins.
http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/4346
Another thing that up-grader did wrong was not to get the old gold sticker removed from the report. It still shows 2 gold cac MS66's for this date. And then you have 3 green 66's and 2 green 67's - giving the appearance of 7 different 66/67 coins....a probable 3 MS67's. I guess they were in too much of a hurry to log their $2700 loss to bother with the pops. With the Simpson and Gardner half dimes completed...who has replaced them to compete for these pop tops?
http://www.caccoin.com/cgi-bin/pop_resultsg.cgi?Issue=Half+Dime&Type=Liberty+Seated,+Drapery&Desig=MS
Collectors like me have replaced Garnder and Simpson as the buyer of the MS67s. We will buy them at MS65 money all day long.
Just kidding, but the exit of two major players for monster-grade Seated material really is a large hit to the market.
One other point about the original coin is worth noting. The MS67 holder has quite a few scratches on the back, even though it was a recent upgrade. That coin might have slid across quite a few cases at shows (without selling) before it turned up in the auction. We don't know for sure, but I am very suspicious.
That's a fair point Rhedden. It went from 66 gold in Oct 2015 to 67 green by Feb 2015. It surely could have spent a couple months walking the bourse floor before it was consigned.
Better date MS68 seated stuff is incredibly rare. In fact some of the coins I recall receiving that grade in the past 20 yrs have been downgraded to MS67 since. The Eliasberg 1854-0 quarter (once NGC 68). The Eliasberg 1855-0 quarter (once NGC MS68). Both Eliasberg 1859-s halves made it to NGC MS68 (right after the auction one was 68 and the other 67.....today only 1 is a 68 iirc). PCGS as a rule doesn't give out this grade unless the coin is incredible. So I find it hard to believe someone could have even been thinking MS68 on this CAC gold 66 1850-0 half dime. Maybe Merc dimes make the jump from MS66 no bands to MS67+ Full Bands...not so much seated coins.
To me it is an alright coin, but nothing special. The surfaces look grainy. And I don't like the spot below the H.
My comments are all based on the pics.....it may be way better in hand. The sticker history doesn't mean squat to me.
This PCGS 1850-0 MS67 CAC half dime will not be Fully Fresh (FF) again until at least Feb 2025.
Gosh this is a fun hobby.
Looking through the Heritage archives at 1850-O half dimes was enlightening. This particular issue is a real bear in Uncirculated condition. There are only 17 auction records in the Heritage archives for coins grading MS62 and higher, including duplicate sales.
If I had to guess, I would say the MS62s are probably actually AU58s, the MS63s lack eye appeal or have rub, and the MS64-MS67 coins are all either overgraded by a point or else recently upgraded. Oh, what fun it is to be a collector of high grade Seated material.
Great discussion!
The pop reports for the highest graded seated coins are often off by a factor of 2-4x. Or infinite if there are 2 66 coins that went 67 after 4 tries, inserts not returned, and no 66's currently exist.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
I've tried to keep an eye out for any 66/67 "early" New Orleans half dimes, dimes, and quarters over the years. And barring the few dates that exist in reasonable qty, the rest are a bear with full luster, no rub, original surfaces, few marks. Asking for nice "eye appeal" is almost "unreasonable." I've always liked the 50-0 and 51-0 seated coinage in all denominations. The 50-0's tend to be scudzy....maybe the 50-0 half dollars are where you can find some attractive unc coins. This was the best 1850-0 half dime Gene was able to buy in 10-20 yrs of looking....which suggests they don't come any nicer.
Exceptions:
half dimes no stars/no drapery/drapery ......48-0, 57-0, 58-0 (though still scarce in killer, well struck gem)
dimes..... 57-0, 59-0
quarters - NONE - they are all difficult
https://coins.ha.com/itm/seated-half-dimes/half-dimes/1851-o-h10c-ms66-pcgs-v-1-with-860-000-pieces-struck-this-is-one-of-the-more-available-new-orleans-half-dimes-in-mint-co/a/328-6436.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515...$9200 in 2003 was a ton of money for a MS66 1851-0. It was probably a pop 1 then.
The above is a gem 1851-0 half dime I bought in the mid-1980's. It graded out NGC MS65 in 1988. I was a bit disappointed it didn't 66 but realized the flattish head wasn't helping. The original surfaces and incredible luster blast was what set it apart. Around 10-15 yrs ago I noticed it had jumped to MS66. The head looks sharper than I remembered it. Funny, how a negative feature like that can "grown" in your mind. At one point I recalled it being "totally flat" which it isn't. This is only one of 2 MS66's in the Heritage archives....the other 1 showing up 3X. No MS67's listed. My old 51-0 has a checkered history because it was "confiscated" during a 1988 Fed Raid on the dealer I sent it to for potential purchase at $4500. After the dust settled, the Fed's only paid me $3500 for it. The dealer served some time. Aren't coins fun?
https://coins.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?Ne=16&Nf=US+Coin+Year|BTWN+1851+1851&N=51+790+231+355+1585+74&expand=Coin+Grade&ic4=Refine-CoinGrade-102615#expand-16
Keep in mind that you are talking about a half dime - not exactly the pinnacle of interest in the Seated Liberty coin universe.
Again, beware of thin markets.
When you get up to MS-67 for a coin of this era, it needs to sing and dance because there are very few coins minted in the mid-19th century that will get higher grades. The eye appeal is so-so for an MS-67 coin. For the MS-67 grade this coin has two left feet and a cough.
My idea too
Could a change in market conditions alone explain it?
"Keep in mind that you are talking about a half dime - not exactly the pinnacle of interest in the Seated Liberty coin universe."
Hey, hey! If you can't say something nice, it is best not to say anything at all.
Hey, @MrHalfDime, good to see you on the forum. I said something nice in a PM about 5 days ago. Did you happen to see it? There are at least two of us who think half dimes are worth collecting.
CAC Gold is the lottery ticket. Market assumes (and pays for) a one level upgrade at least and maybe more. Plus you had the electricity of a major pedigree.
Half dimes are definitely worth collecting, but when you are acquiring them, you have to keep their place in the market in perspective. The are not the most popular coins in large part because of their small size.
@afford....Just a note to let you know your links do not work.... Cheers, RickO
@afford.... No suggestions, the link looks valid. I tried copy/paste on a new page... and got a warning for an 'unsafe site...someone may be trying to steal your data'.... not sure what is wrong there. Cheers, RickO
The Heritage pics as usual suck. I wouldn't judge anything based on them. I'm sure the coin is closer aestheically to the TV ( which is another ball of wax entirely)
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I like the coin. It is a little chalky from being dipped but it is very crisp and clean. Gold stickers are like four leaf clovers and very sought after. Had it been my coin; I'd have left well enough alone. JMHO.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Question out of curiosity. If Heritage sells a coin with a gold cac and it turns out to have been removed from another coin holder, will they void the sale and honor a return?
Question two is, do you think that they verify the CAC's before cataloging?
To the first question I would imagine that Heritage would be forced to accept a return if the coin did not subsequently receive a gold sticker at CAC since the auction listing would be materially inaccurate. To the second question I would doubt highly that they verify all (possibly any) CAC stickers prior to listing.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
The seller (Gene Gardner) did leave the coin alone for the 11 yrs he owned it. It was the new owner that decided it would be worth more as a pop 1 MS67.....possibly because at that time there were 2 CAC GOLD 66's of this date (assuming the CAC data base is correct).
Gene would be amused
A great coin, extremely esoteric. I would be curious how comparably certified rare gold coins have fared with timely re-auctioning. Short periods of time in resale emphasize how chancy investing in rare coins can be.
I recognize that colorful 1850-0. A previous forum member asked me about it 3-5 years ago. I think it's an NGC MS67 or MS66 in old fatty holder. Interesting coin.
Well that solves the issue of the "other" CAC gold MS66 out there....and likely the only remaining specimen in "gold."
So the coin sold in October 24, 2014 and later sold January 29, 2015, Based on my count, holding period of about 3 months. If you seller expected a profit, then that was poor thinking. However, had the seller held the coin for over 5 years, i would have predicated he would have sold it at a profit. When you speculate in short term bullion, rare coins or for that anything, you are taking a chance. Personally, i don' play that game.
Nice coin and keep it in the NGC holder! Love that coin. I am sure that when its time to sell some time in the future, you will make money on this coin.
Both the ex-Gardner coin and @afford's coin are examples of the V-1A die marriage (later die states of V-1), and are the top 2 by grade for V-1A. The V-1A is identified by the horizontal crack through star 3, and reverse cracks through OFA and E3 (of AMERICA).
The ex-Gardner coin now has a new PCGS Cert number: 83794934 (viewable on PCGS CoinFacts).
I just finished a (free) "1850-O half dime attribution guide", after looking at all the auction images from 2009-2017:
https://web.stanford.edu/~clint/hdag/index.htm
I don't have afford's coin in the Roster under V-1A at present, because I didn't see it in an auction during this time period.
The MS-66s which @roadrunner linked are plate coins for V-1 and V-2a in my guide.
I didn't use the ex-Gardner V-1A as the plate coin because the best Heritage photos are limited by the reverse slab scuffs and the toning in the PCGS TrueView obscures the features; I used an MS-63 instead.
@TomB said: Also, the mystique of the gold CAC sticker was now gone and the fantasy that this was an MS68 sitting in an MS66 holder would be largely scuttled
I agree; A gold sticker (especially on an OGH coin) gives the buyer the hope that they will win the lottery and get a 2 point upgrade, which has happened with a few OGH commems that went from common MS66's to unique MS68's> >
Commems and Early Type
Why would you wish to see such a calamitous drop in posts?
Gold sticker worth more than a green one.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Interesting thread. Lots of lessons here.
I'm no expert in Seated material, but I would say a 66 gold CAC would trump a 67 green CAC in almost any series. There's additional risk when you start buying rattlers, OGHs, "pedigreed" coins, common coins in "special" wrappers (Mint director or athlete signatures, shipwreck, trade center, etc).
It's always interesting to contemplate if you're paying for coin, paper, or plastic.
i like the coin!